I need some help for one of my players, a very good RPer, but really not much in pursuing combat effective builds. Most of the skills/feats chosen fit with the character's personality, and back story. My player is getting frustrated because of an inability to really make a difference in combat.
Right now the character is an 8th level rogue with mobility and combat expertise. The player will be adding two levels, and I'd love it if anyone on these forums has a suggestion, maybe something from Dragon mag, or a less than core book that would make melee fun for this player again.
We're getting close to starting chapter 6, that means a trip to Occipitus.
Here is how the character 'might' end up looking after taking a level of rogue, and a level of Shadow Dancer. I don't know if this is good enough though...
http://3edb.com/viewCharacter.asp?cid=12390
Thanks for any suggestions.
This character will be fine if she can pick up Weapon Finesse and Two Weapon Fighting. She'll get another feat at 9th level and at 10th level of rogue can choose to pick a feat instead of one of the rogue abilities.
My suggestion is to stick with rogue and get those feats..her combat abilities will be excellent when she flanks with 3 attacks (2 main hand with a rapier + 1 off hand with a dagger) each doing an extra 5d6 sneak attack damage each round.
She doesn't need non-core stuff to make her better, just add in Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting and she'll be a death dealing machine as long as she's willing to manuever herself into flanking position at every available opportunity.
Contributor
|
Well, overall it isn't a bad build. You didn't list the skill ranks invested where, but I can extrapolate the basics. I'll take a look through Complete Adventurer later today and give you some options. For now, though, let's take a look at building her as an effective Shadow-Dancer.
Tactics: A Shadow Dancer's basic tactic is to use Hide in Plain Sight constantly in a fight and abuse the heck out of her Rogue sneak attack damage. Generally, this means sticking with a melee weapon, then moving, or sniping with a ranged weapon within 30 feet, then moving. Moving stealthily mean moving only 15 feet for an Elf, so she won't be going far, but so long as opponents can't make their Spot checks, she's effectively invisible. Whichever attack she relies upon, attacking applies a -20 penalty to your Hide check that round (page 92 of the Rules Compendium, and check out the Sniping rules in the PHB), so it's vital to keep your Hide skill maxed out. This tactic means that you'll only get one attack in a round, and on some rounds you won't be able to attack because you'll need to silently reposition or attempt to re-hide, but that means every one of those Distance Daggers will inflict 1d4+5d6+2 damage when they do hit!
On the down side, rogue builds like this one also mean that you're mostly screwed when fighting constructs, undead, oozes, and anything else immune to sneak attack damage. In those situations, she'll mostly be relegated to providing a flanking bonus or distracting the target (at least until she can start summoning Shadows at 3rd level).
Skills: Rogue skill points always have to be stretched thin: you get a lot, but there are so many more skills that you need than any other class. Regardless, if the desire is a combat-focused Shadow Dancer, she'll need to max out her Hide skill before any other concerns. It'll make her a damage-dealing demon in most fights, and it'll cover her squishy elven butt in those fights against backstab-proof opponents. It's even more vital when you realize that Constructs and Undead, two of the heaviest hitters in the game, can see right through Invisibility spells.
Generally with any Rogue builds, the key skills are Tumble and Bluff. Tumble keeps you from getting cornered and helps you set up flanks (which let you abuse your sneak attack dice). Bluff lets you make effective feints (usually coupled with the Improved Feint feat), again allowing you to bring all your Sneak Attack dice onto the table. In a Shadow Dancer's case, you're mostly relying on Hide to set you up for Sneak Attacks, but it never hurts to have options. Luckily, she already has a good investment in Tumble.
Feats: Being a 10th level Elven Rogue, you only get 4 feats, all of which have been invested into getting into the Shadow Dancer class. Not much you can change here. If she's thinking ahead to level 12, the Complete Adventurer has some fun feats, but I think her best options are from the Players Handbook 2:
Cunning Evasion: This allows a character who has avoided damage thanks to their Evasion ability to immediately take a 5-foot step and attempt to Hide. Shadow-Dancers can always benefit from traits that allow them a Hide check for free.
Hindering Opportunist: When you would normally get an attack of opportunity against someone, you instead can make an Aid Another check to help one of your allies hit them later. This feat is very useful when you're feeling otherwise useless fighting Undead, Constructs, and the like.
Shadow Striker: This feat gives you a few new fight-and-hide options, like keeping a flanking position that prevents your target from attacking you (so long as you don't attack), or getting a +5 Hide bonus on a round when you've hit someone.
Equipment: Honestly, this is where her build needs the most tweaking. Luckily, it's also the easiest part to tweak.
First of all, Bracers of Armor don't actually stack with worn armor. She should look at trading in her Masterwork Leather for Masterwork Studded Leather, and then bumping it up to +3 armor (which, conveniently enough, costs exactly as much as the +3 Bracers). This will give her a total armor bonus to AC of +6 (I don't know why, but her AC is listed as 21 on the sheet provided, but only actually adds up to 19; the new armor will take it to 20).
Next, she might want to think about selling off two of those magic daggers and using the money to place Returning on the remaining dagger. Since the Distance Daggers are the only magic weapon she has, I'd assume it's a safe bet that she primarily fights from range, throwing daggers into combat? A Returning Dagger means she can just keep throwing it, and never need to pause to pick up the ones she's already thrown.
A Cloak of the Bat is perfect for a Shadow Dancer. That +5 to Hide is very worthwhile, and the ability to fly, hang upside down, and polymorph into a bat are all handy tricks for a scout. Likewise, a Bracelet of Friends is a great bangle for anyone who does a lot of scouting or moves ahead of the party.
I've also found that, as a sneaky-type, Potions are incredibly handy. She should try and keep at least a few potions on her at any given time. Make sure to include a Cure Serious, and then get creative: Invisibility is a classic. Disguise Self and Alter Self have saved my bacon more than once. Gaseous Form is a nice all-purpose emergency potion (good to keep this one hidden; I keep mine in a nondescript hair tie). Spider Climb and Cat's Grace are both well-suited to a Shadow Dancer. Be creative. As the party Rogue, it's usually your job to come up with the wacky schemes or creative uses for magic items.
Good luck. Rogues can be challenging to play, but are also a lot of fun.
|
Contributor
|
This character will be fine if she can pick up Weapon Finesse and Two Weapon Fighting. She'll get another feat at 9th level and at 10th level of rogue can choose to pick a feat instead of one of the rogue abilities.
My suggestion is to stick with rogue and get those feats..her combat abilities will be excellent when she flanks with 3 attacks (2 main hand with a rapier + 1 off hand with a dagger) each doing an extra 5d6 sneak attack damage each round.
She doesn't need non-core stuff to make her better, just add in Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting and she'll be a death dealing machine as long as she's willing to manuever herself into flanking position at every available opportunity.
I have to disagree with the Two-Weapon Fighting call. I see that a lot, but the problem with applying it to Rogue builds is that you have to stand in one place an wail on someone to use the feat. It grants you an extra attack (and with a 9th-level Rogue, that means 6d6 damage), but it also leaves you open to retaliation, and bruiser opponents will whittle through your d6 hit dice pretty quickly. The biggest benefit to Shadow Dancer or a stealth-focused Rogue build is survivability: You won't do as much damage, but your opponent will have a heck of a time trying to swing back at you.
That being said, Weapon Finesse is always handy for a Rogue build that relies on hand-to-hand combat. In this case, it's like getting a free +3 to hit with every melee attack. If you're focusing on a knife-throwing rogue, though, use that feat slot for Point Blank shot instead, granting +1 to hit and damage.
...that would make melee fun for this player again...
I still think my suggestion would allow her to have fun in melee. Just because you have the Two Weapon Fighting feat doesn't mean you have to try and use it every round. Up against a dangerous opponent? Use stealth or hit&run tactics until the opponent is focused on another character then unlease the full attack.
Also, the Two Weapon Fighting doesn't preclude taking Shadow Dancer levels beginning at 11th level instead of 10th...but at least the rogue will have some damage potential for when it might be needed.
Too bad tumble/acrobatics can't be made to take the place of mobility in this character's backstory. Perhaps, you can convince them of this and free up a third feat?
Combat expertise? Any chance of a rethink on that as well? Maybe another step up the twf tree, or improved initiative if they don't have it (read the character, and they don't).
Assuming the player buys any of this, there is a good chance they'll drop 'dodge' too.
That's a tough situation to be in...so true to your character concept you end up with an unfun character.
Suggested feats:
1. two weapon fighting
2. improved initiative
3. weapon finesse/
4. improved critical - rapier
And use skills to build the texture more than feats.
The end result should do substantially more crits and sneak attacks.
If there is a strict 'two feat' limit then improved critical would be my first choice followed by weapon finesse (and then improved initiative).
Hope I've been of some help.
oooh, forgot about pre-req's for shadow dancer...if that's the case then consider these two posts a hearty endorsement for the earlier poster who went over the magic items in detail.
- Mithril shirt?
Hey everyone thanks for the input. Immora, your take on Shadow Dancer was very thorough, and I forwarded it to my player. I also passed along some of the other ideas. Thanks so much.
Short Sword of Subtlety.
Hey Ikor, I have probably come too late into this and it seems that Immora has planted some excellent suggestions. In any case, I want to throw in my two coppers in any case because I love unconventional characters.
I noticed this Rogue doesn't have any ranks in Use Magical Device. To me, this is a shame because it is quite useful in a more unconventional sense. With a few ranks, there is nothing stopping Rose Hawksburrow pilfering the Wizard's Wand of Fireballs and letting rip. If a Holy Avenger is placed as treasure, this can make for some good roleplaying and gaming moments for Rose as well, especially because of the unwanted favours from the Church of St Cuthbert (hey, that elf is not the messiah!). Even better because mechanics-wise, it really doesn't have any untowards effects; it simply becomes a +2 cold iron longsword if Rose doesn't make the check.
Another skills of incredible use in combat is Bluff. Feinting in Combat is a great way to deny a Rogue's opponent his Dex bonus and open him up to all sorts of sneak attack-ery, which go hand in hand with the next part:
I would suggest looking at the Complete Scoundrel (if you'll allow the book); within are a number of 'Ambush Feats' that allow replacement of sneak attack damage for a number of different effects, such as, concussion, deafening, confusion, speech hinderance, delaying sneak attack damage are some good examples.
There are also a section on things such as 'Skill Tricks', which may augment skills already taken --at a small price. 'Spot the Weak Point' is a good example of using the Spot skill in combat (allowing the Rogue's next attack to be considered a touch attack). There are quite a number of skills and feats in there, so I would advise flicking through it for some ideas.
To me, Rogues are opportunists to the last; they sneak a look at the wizard's magical items, the Fighters weapons, the cleric's relics. They look for their opening and they capitalise it mercilessly. Hope this helps :)
If you are using 3.5 and not any pathfinder beta stuff, and the rogue is indeed a thrower, then Manyshot and Greater Manyshot might need to be on her wish list...
Manyshot isn't that great, however greater manyshot (3.5 XpHB) basically allows a ranged full attack as a standard action, leaving you the ability to move as well (say to hide again).