Who wants a bastard sword?


General Discussion (Prerelease)


Can a human's bonus martial weapon proficiency be taken in bastard sword?

As written, it looks like it can, as long as the weapon is wielded two handed.

Jason is this correct?

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

That would be correct.

You could take: Martial Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword as your Bonus Human Martial WP, but it would only count for wielding it two-handed. To wield it one-handed you would have to have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword Feat.


Me me me I want a bastard sword - oh its not for real, bummer :-(


I have to ask, why would you want a bastard sword as a 2-h weapon?

Why not just use the human feat to learn greatsword? It does more damage, doesn't take any more feats or skill or character resources (other than a few more gp to buy one), and it appears in random treasure rolls with the same frequency as the bastard sword.

Almost every "special" magical sword is a shortsword or longsword. There are no "special" bastard swords, but Frostbrand is a greatsword.

So in all respects, a greatsword is preferable to a bastard sword, unless you use the bastard sword one-handed, which of course, requires a feat to learn above and beyond what humans can learn with their racial ability.

Of course, there is always RP.

RP is the answer to all mechanically dubious decisions.

But does anyone have a mechanical reason for 2-h wielding a bastard sword?


DM_Blake wrote:
But does anyone have a mechanical reason for 2-h wielding a bastard sword?

I can think of one (dubious) case. Suppose you were a bard who really, really wanted to use a bastard sword, starting at level 1. Then you could take MWP: Bastard Sword at level 1 and EWP: Bastard Sword at level 3 (instead of using some other weapon at levels 1 & 2).

Liberty's Edge

DM_Blake wrote:


But does anyone have a mechanical reason for 2-h wielding a bastard sword?

Functionally Katanas are bastard swords, so this makes it so that someone who wants an oriental feel for their character can weild this weapon without needeing a full martial class or wasting a feat. Otherwise its not really very optimal.

Scarab Sages

Studpuffin wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:


But does anyone have a mechanical reason for 2-h wielding a bastard sword?
Functionally Katanas are bastard swords, so this makes it so that someone who wants an oriental feel for their character can weild this weapon without needeing a full martial class or wasting a feat. Otherwise its not really very optimal.

And a No-Dachi is a great sword, with an oriental feel...

I would throw an option for human's with martial weapon proficiencies, to allow either a free weapon focus or exotic proficiency in lieu of the free martial proficiency, since they learned the martial weapons as part of their class proficiencies.


DM_Blake wrote:


There are no "special" bastard swords...

*cough*sunblade*cough*

Liberty's Edge

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:


And a No-Dachi is a great sword, with an oriental feel...

Yes, but they aren't as "elegant"... :p. I don't see many Bards with No-Dachi, but possibly Katanas.

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:
I would throw an option for human's with martial weapon proficiencies, to allow either a free weapon focus or exotic proficiency in lieu of the free martial proficiency, since they learned the martial weapons as part of their class proficiencies.

This seems perfectly acceptible to me as well. Free Focus would mean someone might actually take it without ample bonus feats to spend.

Scarab Sages

I've never seen a bard with a katana...heh.

I think elves would make katana like blades..

I think humans should be able to take any weapon proficiency they want, since the other races gain access to exotics that bear their names...elven blades, dwarven war axe, etc...

Liberty's Edge

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:
I've never seen a bard with a katana...heh.

If they gained free weapon proficiencies... :D

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:

I think elves would make katana like blades..

I think humans should be able to take any weapon proficiency they want, since the other races gain access to exotics that bear their names...elven blades, dwarven war axe, etc...

Especially since the baseline assumption of "default" settings are that humans are the most visible race. That means that all the weapons, by default, are human weapons. Why shouldn't they have access to a free proficiency?

Scarab Sages

ex act ly!!


Shadowborn wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:


There are no "special" bastard swords...
*cough*sunblade*cough*

Are you OK? You might have a cold...

Despite the fact that sublades are the size of bastard swords, they can be wielded in one hand by anyone who has the ability (proficiency) to wield a shortsword (or anyone without the proficiency who is willing to take the non-proficiency penalty).

Ergo, I deliberately left it out of the discussion about magical weapons and which require bastard sword proficiency and which require greatsword proficiency.

But yes, you may have a point, someone who is human, in a class that does not give proficiency with short swords, may benefit by taking bastard sword as their human martial weapon, but they would still be required to wield their sunsword with two hands, since they have neither the Martial Weapon Proficiency to wield a shortword nor the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield the sunblade one-handed.

Which would pretty much negate one of the nice things about this weapon, though it would still be fun against evil/negative energy creatures.

Scarab Sages

DM_Blake wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:


There are no "special" bastard swords...
*cough*sunblade*cough*

Are you OK? You might have a cold...

Despite the fact that sublades are the size of bastard swords, they can be wielded in one hand by anyone who has the ability (proficiency) to wield a shortsword (or anyone without the proficiency who is willing to take the non-proficiency penalty).

Ergo, I deliberately left it out of the discussion about magical weapons and which require bastard sword proficiency and which require greatsword proficiency.

But yes, you may have a point, someone who is human, in a class that does not give proficiency with short swords, may benefit by taking bastard sword as their human martial weapon, but they would still be required to wield their sunsword with two hands, since they have neither the Martial Weapon Proficiency to wield a shortword nor the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield the sunblade one-handed.

Which would pretty much negate one of the nice things about this weapon, though it would still be fun against evil/negative energy creatures.

Actually they would wield it one handed as a short sword...as a sunblade is a short sword that acts like a bastard sword...it would be wielded at a -4.


DM_Blake wrote:
But does anyone have a mechanical reason for 2-h wielding a bastard sword?

I DMed for a guy who ran a fighter/rogue with high UMD. He'd hold his bastard sword in 1 hand and use a wand in the other as long as foes were at a distance (the 1-handed bastard sword let him make AoO vs. people moving through his threatened area, which a greatsword in 1 hand wouldn't). When foes all closed to melee range, he'd drop the wand and make 2-handed Power Attacks with the bastard sword to really lay down the hurt.

Sovereign Court

if you are playing a class that you intend to wield a sword one handed but want more damage than a longsword and aren't proficient with martial weapons the human proficiency could lower your feat requirement from 2 to 1, granted you could use a longsword for free but hey sometimes people just want a higher damage dice.

This works for bards especially since now they are proficient with shields.

Liberty's Edge

DM_Blake wrote:


But does anyone have a mechanical reason for 2-h wielding a bastard sword?

You happen to be the Iconic Pathfinder Barbarian with an overly large version of the weapon?

You have four arms and like to deal extra damage?

:P

Scarab Sages

Studpuffin wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:


But does anyone have a mechanical reason for 2-h wielding a bastard sword?

You happen to be the Iconic Pathfinder Barbarian with an overly large version of the weapon?

You have four arms and like to deal extra damage?

:P

Yes, you're an iconic wielding a large version, that does 2d8 dmg...

Basically it's just for the versatility of a 1 or 2-handed weapon...

but a long sword CAN be wielded two handed...you just don't increase the die type..


As Kirth's post mentioned, one mechanical reason to choose martial prof (bastard sword) over greatsword would be the *ability* to wield it in one hand, even if at a -4 penalty.

One other slight note: if the character planned to be enlarged most of the time, a Large Bastard sword does exactly the same damage as a Large Greatsword (2d8).

Scarab Sages

Majuba wrote:

As Kirth's post mentioned, one mechanical reason to choose martial prof (bastard sword) over greatsword would be the *ability* to wield it in one hand, even if at a -4 penalty.

One other slight note: if the character planned to be enlarged most of the time, a Large Bastard sword does exactly the same damage as a Large Greatsword (2d8).

I think a large great sword does 3d6 does it not? It's the large great axe that jumps to 2d8.

here's some of the jumps

1d8 medium= 2d6 large= 3d6huge
1d10 medium= 2d8 large = 3d8 huge
2d6 medium = 3d6 large = 4d6 huge


[snarky remark]I did not know that Sebastian was a sword.[/snarky remark]

~GRINS~

Liberty's Edge

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:
Majuba wrote:

As Kirth's post mentioned, one mechanical reason to choose martial prof (bastard sword) over greatsword would be the *ability* to wield it in one hand, even if at a -4 penalty.

One other slight note: if the character planned to be enlarged most of the time, a Large Bastard sword does exactly the same damage as a Large Greatsword (2d8).

I think a large great sword does 3d6 does it not? It's the large great axe that jumps to 2d8.

here's some of the jumps

1d8 medium= 2d6 large= 3d6huge
1d10 medium= 2d8 large = 3d8 huge
2d6 medium = 3d6 large = 4d6 huge

Greatclub jumps to 2d8, but i'm pretty sure that a d12 goes to 3d6. I don't have my books handy though...

Scarab Sages

Studpuffin wrote:
Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:
Majuba wrote:

As Kirth's post mentioned, one mechanical reason to choose martial prof (bastard sword) over greatsword would be the *ability* to wield it in one hand, even if at a -4 penalty.

One other slight note: if the character planned to be enlarged most of the time, a Large Bastard sword does exactly the same damage as a Large Greatsword (2d8).

I think a large great sword does 3d6 does it not? It's the large great axe that jumps to 2d8.

here's some of the jumps

1d8 medium= 2d6 large= 3d6huge
1d10 medium= 2d8 large = 3d8 huge
2d6 medium = 3d6 large = 4d6 huge

Greatclub jumps to 2d8, but i'm pretty sure that a d12 goes to 3d6. I don't have my books handy though...

but 2d6 (great sword) goes to 3d6

and 1d10 (bastard sword) goes to 2d8

Liberty's Edge

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:
Studpuffin wrote:
Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:
Majuba wrote:

As Kirth's post mentioned, one mechanical reason to choose martial prof (bastard sword) over greatsword would be the *ability* to wield it in one hand, even if at a -4 penalty.

One other slight note: if the character planned to be enlarged most of the time, a Large Bastard sword does exactly the same damage as a Large Greatsword (2d8).

I think a large great sword does 3d6 does it not? It's the large great axe that jumps to 2d8.

here's some of the jumps

1d8 medium= 2d6 large= 3d6huge
1d10 medium= 2d8 large = 3d8 huge
2d6 medium = 3d6 large = 4d6 huge

Greatclub jumps to 2d8, but i'm pretty sure that a d12 goes to 3d6. I don't have my books handy though...

but 2d6 (great sword) goes to 3d6

and 1d10 (bastard sword) goes to 2d8

You typed Great Axe though, not Bastard Sword. Hence the confusion.

?????

Scarab Sages

Studpuffin wrote:
Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:
Studpuffin wrote:
Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:
Majuba wrote:

As Kirth's post mentioned, one mechanical reason to choose martial prof (bastard sword) over greatsword would be the *ability* to wield it in one hand, even if at a -4 penalty.

One other slight note: if the character planned to be enlarged most of the time, a Large Bastard sword does exactly the same damage as a Large Greatsword (2d8).

I think a large great sword does 3d6 does it not? It's the large great axe that jumps to 2d8.

here's some of the jumps

1d8 medium= 2d6 large= 3d6huge
1d10 medium= 2d8 large = 3d8 huge
2d6 medium = 3d6 large = 4d6 huge

Greatclub jumps to 2d8, but i'm pretty sure that a d12 goes to 3d6. I don't have my books handy though...

but 2d6 (great sword) goes to 3d6

and 1d10 (bastard sword) goes to 2d8

You typed Great Axe though, not Bastard Sword. Hence the confusion.

?????

My apologies, I didn't have the d12 conversion handy, I had the others on a PbP Character sheet...

Weapons table on D20srd


Slight tangent, but I always thought that they should have made the greatsword a d12 weapon like the greataxe, that way it isn't always necessarily the best two-handed weapon.

Another tangent: I allow, in my games, the spear to be used one-handed as a martial weapon. It just makes sense.

The Exchange

Crowheart wrote:

Slight tangent, but I always thought that they should have made the greatsword a d12 weapon like the greataxe, that way it isn't always necessarily the best two-handed weapon.

Another tangent: I allow, in my games, the spear to be used one-handed as a martial weapon. It just makes sense.

It really does considering the historic armies that used spear and sheild styles.

Liberty's Edge

I'm gonna be the naysayer here and say that, by RAW, I don't think you can take MWP (bastard sword). The bastard sword is a 1-handed exotic weapon; it can be used as a martial weapon two-handed, but the Weapon Proficiency feat that goes with the weapon is EWP. Note the slight difference between the way racial weapons like the dwarven urgrosh and dwarven waraxe are treated ("Dwarves treat dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons") and the way the bastard sword is treated ("A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon") - the former allows you to deal with it as a martial weapon in all ways, whereas the latter only lets you use it as a martial weapon; things like feat validity aren't covered by that.

Majuba wrote:
As Kirth's post mentioned, one mechanical reason to choose martial prof (bastard sword) over greatsword would be the *ability* to wield it in one hand, even if at a -4 penalty.

You can do that without any feat whatsoever. Bastard swords are one-handed weapons; you just suffer the -4 nonprof penalty.


DM_Blake wrote:

I have to ask, why would you want a bastard sword as a 2-h weapon?

But does anyone have a mechanical reason for 2-h wielding a bastard sword?

Strength Cleric of Gorum, (favored weapon Greatsword but not required)wants to use a shield for the AC as he will likely be deep in melee combat...

Greatsword is possible, but would require "Monkeygrip" to use one-handed and suffering a -2 penalty to attacks with an average BAB already.

OR

Bastard sword requiring "Exotic Weapon Prof", NOT suffering the -2 penalty when used one-handed and if extra damage is needed it can be wielded two-handed.(cuz he will eventually take overhand chop) Considering a buckler so I won't have to loose the shield in such circumstances.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Crowheart wrote:
Slight tangent, but I always thought that they should have made the greatsword a d12 weapon like the greataxe, that way it isn't always necessarily the best two-handed weapon.

The greatsword isn't necessarily the "best" two handed weapon, it just has the highest average damage counting only the base weapon, without any other modifiers. The "best" two handed weapons, based on the highest attainable average damage potential (with certain feats/enchantments), are the falchion and scythe. The "best" two handed weapon, based on versatility of maneuvers and use, is the spiked chain (with the halberd a close second, IMO, if allowing some feats from Complete Warrior). The greataxe is only slightly less damaging (on average) than the greatsword, but has a greater chance of inflicting maximum damage on a given hit (1-in-12 vs. 1-in-36).


Ya know it's been stated a few times by the Paizo folks that the free human weapon porf is gone.

But if you still plan to use that rules, well a bastard sword does allow one handed use with 1 extra feat later on

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Shisumo wrote:
Majuba wrote:
As Kirth's post mentioned, one mechanical reason to choose martial prof (bastard sword) over greatsword would be the *ability* to wield it in one hand, even if at a -4 penalty.
You can do that without any feat whatsoever. Bastard swords are one-handed weapons; you just suffer the -4 nonprof penalty.

Yes, but you can't wield a greatsword in one hand at all, I beleive that was his point.

The reason I've gone the sebastard sword/katana/great scimitar route is for my gish builds. There may be times when I need to threaten and I need a hand free for somatic components, or I want to metamagic something and need that free hand for a rod, or as some mentioned a wand wielder.

Plus it's nice to have the option to have a shield and still use my primary weapon.

The last reason is personal desire. IRL, I'm big enough to be comfortable with taking a bastard sword in one hand, and like the option to go one handed or two. That and I like curved blades so the katana/great scimitar are my favourites.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Ya know it's been stated a few times by the Paizo folks that the free human weapon porf is gone.

Really? Missed that. Got a link?

I think it's a great way to customise a character - perhaps it could come back as a trait?


it was said a few times I have a link somewhere. But yeah it's gone.


Shisumo wrote:
I'm gonna be the naysayer here and say that, by RAW, I don't think you can take MWP (bastard sword). The bastard sword is a 1-handed exotic weapon; it can be used as a martial weapon two-handed, but the Weapon Proficiency feat that goes with the weapon is EWP. Note the slight difference between the way racial weapons like the dwarven urgrosh and dwarven waraxe are treated ("Dwarves treat dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons") and the way the bastard sword is treated ("A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon") - the former allows you to deal with it as a martial weapon in all ways, whereas the latter only lets you use it as a martial weapon; things like feat validity aren't covered by that.

That's a perfectly valid interpretation. I lean towards the explanation that since a bastard sword can be wielded as a two-handed martial weapon, a martial weapon proficiency exists for it. What does a martial character know to be able to use it as such, that would not be covered under that.

On a finer note, I utterly agree with your premise - the bastard sword *is* a one-handed weapon. That is what lets Amiri wield a Large version as a two-handed weapon. If it was a two-handed martial weapon, that could be wielded one-handed with exotic proficiency, then a large version would be considered too large for a medium character to wield, and the training to wield it in one hand would not matter.

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