I just noticed in the PHB II that with the vicious mockery at will power you can literally tease your enemy to death... Sorry, but that just seems kind of stupid. No more "sticks and stone can break my bones, but words will never hurt me".
I view the strict interpretation of events dealing with it as silly too. My suggestion is to treat the damage it deals not as direct damage but just a barrage of words that draw the target into losing some control and choosing an action that causes that damage or distracts them from the real attack.
With each use of Vicious Mockery you are removing your target's will to fight (and to live). And yes, the attack is laced with magic.
Who cares if its laced with magic, its ridiculous. If you have magic, cast it without mocking me like some stupid teenage television superhero.
Sounds like playing a Bard with Vicious Mockery probably is not for you.
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Who cares if its laced with magic, its ridiculous. If you have magic, cast it without mocking me like some stupid teenage television superhero.Sounds like playing a Bard with Vicious Mockery probably is not for you.
I guess I've always semi-liked bards, but only bards that didn't talk. Urging on allies or dealing damage with music is cool, but not with song or speeches.
My opinion.
I just noticed in the PHB II that with the vicious mockery at will power you can literally tease your enemy to death... Sorry, but that just seems kind of stupid. No more "sticks and stone can break my bones, but words will never hurt me".
Actually, that power has a basis in Medieval legend. In Ireland, a bard's mockery was said to have the power to wreck the target's health and fortune. Supposedly, a bard once mocked the rats of a lord's castle, satirizing them with such wicked humor that they all DIED.
THAT is some Vicious Mockery.
Wicht doesn't get it because he is a big stoopid poopoo head that smells funny, and his mother dresses him in army boots.
Wicht?
Wicht??
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I would have serious reservations about such a power being used in a game.
Not because it is overpowering but because it would generate silliness.
[fake french accent]
"Now go away or I shall taunt you again.
[/fake french accent]
Do you get a +2 modifier for "I fart in your general direction!"?
This power being taken seriously is really going to depend on the group. Sir Wulf has a point about the Irish precedent, so his group would look at it in that context. Some groups will see it as an excuse to go off the deep end.
Either way, if it makes the game fun, who cares? Some of the best sessions I've played were complete pun fests and signifying.
Wait! That's it! Finally, D&D has allowed for the "Killer yo mama" joke ;)
A lot of the powers have silly names, frankly. If it's that big a deal, do what gamers have proudly done since day one: House rule the names into something that works at your table.
I never thought I would say this, but I am with scott on this one. It is a perfectly reasonable thing for a bard to be able to do.
More over, i actually think it is really cool. It can represent anything from words so barbed they literally cut, to winding up a thug so much that he charges at you and tumbles over the edge of the castle tower when you side step. Its is a perfectly cool and bardie kind of power.
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I just noticed in the PHB II that with the vicious mockery at will power you can literally tease your enemy to death... Sorry, but that just seems kind of stupid. No more "sticks and stone can break my bones, but words will never hurt me".
Quick snide comment about the whistling of the Addams Family theme song, and ... we move on.
Our bard used this in our last game. We all had a great deal of fun with it. Great power, fun use, what more does there need to be?
But, to justify it ... this is a power that does magical, Psychic damage. Consider not that the words are doing the damage, but rather they are acting as the carrier for the powers that do.
This was my main concern, as well. Not that I don't mind a bit of silliness in the game, I just find that it is very easy for my group to get distracted and for things to quickly degenerate into debilitating laughter in the middle of combat (not that anything's really wrong with that because we're having fun but...).
Example- we have two warforged in the party and in our last game session the party druid was thinking- hey I should make a warforged druid. Then jokes started about how he could be like a dinobot from transformers, and we started laughing about how if the whole party was warforged they could have a weekly power that would let them form a giant Voltron type robot. Anyhow there were many laughs, but it was all going on while they were in the midst of fight with a green dragon, so it was a bit distracting. Usually, the group is pretty on task duing combat, but they lost it a bit on that one. However, I couldn't be bothered to settle them down because I was laughing so much as well. Good Times.
I would have serious reservations about such a power being used in a game.
Not because it is overpowering but because it would generate silliness.
[fake french accent]
"Now go away or I shall taunt you again.
[/fake french accent]
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I just noticed in the PHB II that with the vicious mockery at will power you can literally tease your enemy to death... Sorry, but that just seems kind of stupid. No more "sticks and stone can break my bones, but words will never hurt me".Quick snide comment about the whistling of the Addams Family theme song, and ... we move on.
Our bard used this in our last game. We all had a great deal of fun with it. Great power, fun use, what more does there need to be?
But, to justify it ... this is a power that does magical, Psychic damage. Consider not that the words are doing the damage, but rather they are acting as the carrier for the powers that do.
Or the person gets so worked up (stressed or angry) they have a heart attack or a stroke. heh
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I just noticed in the PHB II that with the vicious mockery at will power you can literally tease your enemy to death... Sorry, but that just seems kind of stupid. No more "sticks and stone can break my bones, but words will never hurt me".
What do you expect? It's 4E, where a warlord can heal with a non-magicl pep-talk, a paladin shoots lasers at foes to punish them for not attacking him, and causing damage with an intimidate check is a possible stunt.
I've played a tiefling, rock & roll bard for my last two session and I have to say that this is probably my favorite power. Yes, it's silly, but bards have always been kind of silly in the first place.
I finished off an adult kruthik with it during the last session by implying something very derogatory about its mother and everyone loved it. I think killing something with your words alone is pretty badass and more in line with how a bard would do combat with his special brand of magic.
As far as interrupting a game, I just don't get that. When I play with my friends we play to have fun and like to throw some humor into it and make sure everyone has a good time. The idea of everyone standing around a battlemat seriously plotting their battle with stony faces seems downright frightening to me. To each their own I suppose, but I've never been in a group that had any desire to be completely serious throughout an entire session. We have our laughs and then I ask the DM who's next in line so we can continue.
4E bard rocks my socks. I liked the 3E bard as well, but could never justify playing as one in a group smaller than 6 players because they weren't always very combat prevalent. Now I can have my cake and eat it to. No complaints from me.
I was playing an LFR game where the bard defeated no less than three enemies with Vicious Mockery. The first time we decided 'ok, heart attack' - but the second and third threw us. We came to the conclusion after the encounter was over that the second had soiled himself, thus surrendering, and that the third literally died of shame. It was kinda fun working through that in the fluff, but we were glad the bard didn't get any more kills that module.
It is psychic damage.
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I just noticed in the PHB II that with the vicious mockery at will power you can literally tease your enemy to death... Sorry, but that just seems kind of stupid. No more "sticks and stone can break my bones, but words will never hurt me".Actually, that power has a basis in Medieval legend. In Ireland, a bard's mockery was said to have the power to wreck the target's health and fortune. Supposedly, a bard once mocked the rats of a lord's castle, satirizing them with such wicked humor that they all DIED.
THAT is some Vicious Mockery.
Nice.
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I was playing an LFR game where the bard defeated no less than three enemies with Vicious Mockery. The first time we decided 'ok, heart attack' - but the second and third threw us. We came to the conclusion after the encounter was over that the second had soiled himself, thus surrendering, and that the third literally died of shame. It was kinda fun working through that in the fluff, but we were glad the bard didn't get any more kills that module.
I saw it in action, too, and viewed it similar to Banshee (may he rest in peace) of the X-men.
I was playing an LFR game where the bard defeated no less than three enemies with Vicious Mockery. The first time we decided 'ok, heart attack' - but the second and third threw us. We came to the conclusion after the encounter was over that the second had soiled himself, thus surrendering, and that the third literally died of shame. It was kinda fun working through that in the fluff, but we were glad the bard didn't get any more kills that module.
The bard primarily wields the power of demoralization through Vicious Mockery. He is whittling away the enemy's will to fight. When the target hits 0 hit points, that target is no longer in the fight, but that doesn't mean that the attack that brought him to 0 hit points is the "fatal wound" in the game world.
Next time a bard kills an enemy with Vicious Mockery, try this:
The bard delivers a scathing insult, cutting to the very soul of his target. Already dealt a mortal injury from a previous attack, and clinging to battle only with what remains of his resolve, the target finally loses his will to fight on, succumbing to the bleeding wound he was dealt by the fighter only seconds earlier.
I would play it as an unscrupulous therapist. "Tell me Mr. Beholder, would anyone really care if you were gone? I didn't think so, why not end it all now once and for all?"
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I guess I've always semi-liked bards, but only bards that didn't talk.
You don't live in an indomitable village in Northern Gaul, by any chance?
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Now I'm gonna let you in on the real secret of sword fighting. Sword fighting is kinda like making love. It's not always what you do, but what you say. Any fool pirate can swing a piece of metal and hope to cut something, but the pros, they know just when to cut their opponent with an insult - one that catches 'em off guard. You see, kid, your wit's got to be twice as sharp as your sword. Let's try a couple of insults out, eh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRoVflcdoMM
...yeah...
Whoever came up with this power ought to be hauled out behind the WotC offices and shot to encourage the others.
I'll be either revamping or simply cutting this power from my game.
Seriously?
A bard killing with a song or jest doesn't seem one iota less reasonable than a wizard killing with a word and a gesture. But maybe that's just me.
Oh, there are plenty of good bardic insults out there. "Thou elvish-marked abortive rooting hog!" is pretty all-purpose, capable of insulting humans, elves, orcs, halflings and just about everyone.
And the old Arabic curses are pretty good too: "May Allah strike you blind, O son of one woman and twenty men!"
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I'll be either revamping or simply cutting this power from my game.
Same here. This power just about killed my enthusiasm for the 4e Bard. Thing is, if it were the description for an encounter or daily power, it wouldn't bother me so much, but it seems ridiculous for an at-will. I can't get out of my mind the image of Triumph the Insult Bard slaughtering a room full of minions by pointing out their shortcomings one at a time.
Director of Brand Strategy
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And the old Arabic curses are pretty good too: "May Allah strike you blind, O son of one woman and twenty men!"
But that's biologically impossible! So it fits right in with the suspension of disbelief about bard's fatal insults.
I'd play it as some sort of Bardic lore (capital "b"). It's just the opposite of a healing word or prayer that a cleric does, only these words carry with them harming power.
I think the Goodman Games bard is superior to the WotC one, in any case.
And still EVERYONE seems to be ignoring the fact that it isn't necessarily the insults that are killing a foe, it is the PSYCHIC damage that the bard focuses through the insults.
And still EVERYONE seems to be ignoring the fact that it isn't necessarily the insults that are killing a foe, it is the PSYCHIC damage that the bard focuses through the insults.
Thoroughly agree. People seem to have no problem with a warlock sending a ball of arcane energy at a foe, but are balking at a bard causing psychic energy. Think of the Vicious Insult as the _VERBAL_ component of the spell that is delivering the psychic damage. The bard waves his implement(wand or instrument) (SOMATIC component) and speaks an insult (VERBAL component) to affect an arcane attack that deals psychic energy.
I actually like the flavor of a bard killing his foes, and flavoring the kill with a biting remark. "You sir, are a fool and a cad and deserve to die!" (Poof, psychic damage). "Your mother serviced one too many troopers the day you were conceived." (Pow, psychic damage). "You are simply too ugly to stay on this mortal coil one second longer!" (Kaplow, psychic damage).
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OMG OMG OMG! I agree with Scott Betts on something...will the world survive?
Have you seen the work on flash frozen water? Where when you yell at the water, the ice crystals form jagged, chaotic crystals...While when you sing beautifully or play beautiful music, the crystals for beautiful symmetric crystals...75% of the body is water...
Talking nice to plants will help them grow...
do the math.
The bard's ability to kill with words is fully within the realms of D&D...even if it is 4dventurE.
And still EVERYONE seems to be ignoring the fact that it isn't necessarily the insults that are killing a foe, it is the PSYCHIC damage that the bard focuses through the insults.
And you seem to be ignoring the fact that that is not the problem people have with it, just because you don't have those same issues.
If I declared my character was slaying monsters with discarded AOL CDs, the precise problem is not automatically solved by noting that the foes are not killed just because of the CDs, but the speed and accuracy I am throwing them with and that a normal person can find no or little harm from them.
The damage might not be the problem, it might be the medium in which it is delivered that people find thematically unreasonable.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I dunno...doesn't seem any stranger than the various healing abilities that classes get in 4e. Hp are much more abstract in 4e, and seem to actively incorporate the concept of morale boosting effects increasing or decreasing them. Once you swallow that particular assumption, taunting to death doesn't seem out of line. If that's not an assumption your comfortable making, you're probably going to be unhappy with a lot of 4e mechanics.
Okay to change the topic for a minute. I know of the book that has the Goodman version of the bard, but I haven't checked it out. Could someone fill me in on the differences and tell me why they think one is better than the other? If the Goodman versions of Barbarian, Bard and Druid are better than the WotC versions I might pick up that book.
And the old Arabic curses are pretty good too: "May Allah strike you blind, O son of one woman and twenty men!"But that's biologically impossible! So it fits right in with the suspension of disbelief about bard's fatal insults.
I'd play it as some sort of Bardic lore (capital "b"). It's just the opposite of a healing word or prayer that a cleric does, only these words carry with them harming power.
I think the Goodman Games bard is superior to the WotC one, in any case.
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I dunno...doesn't seem any stranger than the various healing abilities that classes get in 4e. Hp are much more abstract in 4e, and seem to actively incorporate the concept of morale boosting effects increasing or decreasing them. Once you swallow that particular assumption, taunting to death doesn't seem out of line. If that's not an assumption your comfortable making, you're probably going to be unhappy with a lot of 4e mechanics.
This is why I'm waiting to pick up a core set dirt cheap (like under $10 a book) and convert it to a super heroes game. I prefer my fantasy low and dirty (I'm stuck on stupid with my 1e fanboyism, apparently), and 4e doesn't do low and dirty well, but the mechanics and the at will/encounter/daily powers system would, imo, make a d20 supers game that would put M&M to shame.
The mechanics I dislike in 4e for fantasy (because they jar my suspension of disbelief too much for the fantasy gaming I'm accustomed to, my fantasy reference is more literary than cinematic), I love for representing what I think a super heroes (or any cinematic-type game, perhaps, the 4e encounter mechanics lend themselves to being like "scenes" in a movie quite well) should play like.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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This is why I'm waiting to pick up a core set dirt cheap (like under $10 a book) and convert it to a super heroes game. I prefer my fantasy low and dirty (I'm stuck on stupid with my 1e fanboyism, apparently), and 4e doesn't do low and dirty well, but the mechanics and the at will/encounter/daily powers system would, imo, make a d20 supers game that would put M&M to shame.
The mechanics I dislike in 4e for fantasy (because they jar my suspension of disbelief too much for the fantasy gaming I'm accustomed to, my fantasy reference is more literary than cinematic), I love for representing what I think a super heroes (or any cinematic-type game, perhaps, the 4e encounter mechanics lend themselves to being like "scenes" in a movie quite well) should play like.
You know, I was just thinking exactly the same thing today - 4e would be the perfect system for a superheroes game. Especially because the encounter/daily powers do such a great job of mapping the way super hero battles work. One problem I've always found with superhero games is that the characters tend to have one optimal power and that it's really tough to build powers that operate in the same way that they do in the comics - the heroes always seem to have some super-effective move but they only use it once per battle (if at all). At the table, the players will just use the super-effective move over and over again each round.
Plus, all of the forced movement just begs for a superhero battle, with people being clobbered and knocked through walls left and right.
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This is why I'm waiting to pick up a core set dirt cheap (like under $10 a book) and convert it to a super heroes game. I prefer my fantasy low and dirty (I'm stuck on stupid with my 1e fanboyism, apparently), and 4e doesn't do low and dirty well, but the mechanics and the at will/encounter/daily powers system would, imo, make a d20 supers game that would put M&M to shame.
The mechanics I dislike in 4e for fantasy (because they jar my suspension of disbelief too much for the fantasy gaming I'm accustomed to, my fantasy reference is more literary than cinematic), I love for representing what I think a super heroes (or any cinematic-type game, perhaps, the 4e encounter mechanics lend themselves to being like "scenes" in a movie quite well) should play like.
You know, I was just thinking exactly the same thing today - 4e would be the perfect system for a superheroes game. Especially because the encounter/daily powers do such a great job of mapping the way super hero battles work. One problem I've always found with superhero games is that the characters tend to have one optimal power and that it's really tough to build powers that operate in the same way that they do in the comics - the heroes always seem to have some super-effective move but they only use it once per battle (if at all). At the table, the players will just use the super-effective move over and over again each round.
Plus, all of the forced movement just begs for a superhero battle, with people being clobbered and knocked through walls left and right.
Not to mention, the first time I read through the minion rules, I immediately thought of the goons from the sixties Batman TV series.
Damn, WotC owns the property, if they could renew the license, they need to do a 4e version of Marvel Superheroes...
(Yeah, I know, Batman is D.C., but I'm sure Hasbro has enough pull to get both universes under one roof. For all I know, they have the toy licensing already anyway...)
And still EVERYONE seems to be ignoring the fact that it isn't necessarily the insults that are killing a foe, it is the PSYCHIC damage that the bard focuses through the insults.And you seem to be ignoring the fact that that is not the problem people have with it, just because you don't have those same issues.
If I declared my character was slaying monsters with discarded AOL CDs, the precise problem is not automatically solved by noting that the foes are not killed just because of the CDs, but the speed and accuracy I am throwing them with and that a normal person can find no or little harm from them.
The damage might not be the problem, it might be the medium in which it is delivered that people find thematically unreasonable.
I would accept it if you said you were super-charging the AOL CDs with explosive energy ala Gambit-style.
That being said it wasn't the mockery that harms the person and that is what everyone is complaining about "OMG HOW CAN MOCKING A PERSON DO HP DAMAGE! NONONONONONO! BAD WIZARDS OF THE COAST!"
I just keep trying to point out that it isn't the mockery that harms the person as the mockery is just the outlet or daresay spell component for the psychic magical power that forces the way into the enemies head and short-circuits their brain.
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This is why I'm waiting to pick up a core set dirt cheap (like under $10 a book) and convert it to a super heroes game. I prefer my fantasy low and dirty (I'm stuck on stupid with my 1e fanboyism, apparently), and 4e doesn't do low and dirty well, but the mechanics and the at will/encounter/daily powers system would, imo, make a d20 supers game that would put M&M to shame.
The mechanics I dislike in 4e for fantasy (because they jar my suspension of disbelief too much for the fantasy gaming I'm accustomed to, my fantasy reference is more literary than cinematic), I love for representing what I think a super heroes (or any cinematic-type game, perhaps, the 4e encounter mechanics lend themselves to being like "scenes" in a movie quite well) should play like.
You know, I was just thinking exactly the same thing today - 4e would be the perfect system for a superheroes game. Especially because the encounter/daily powers do such a great job of mapping the way super hero battles work. One problem I've always found with superhero games is that the characters tend to have one optimal power and that it's really tough to build powers that operate in the same way that they do in the comics - the heroes always seem to have some super-effective move but they only use it once per battle (if at all). At the table, the players will just use the super-effective move over and over again each round.
Plus, all of the forced movement just begs for a superhero battle, with people being clobbered and knocked through walls left and right.
Sounds like champions..
I would accept it if you said you were super-charging the AOL CDs with explosive energy ala Gambit-style.
That being said it wasn't the mockery that harms the person and that is what everyone is complaining about "OMG HOW CAN MOCKING A PERSON DO HP DAMAGE! NONONONONONO! BAD WIZARDS OF THE COAST!"
I just keep trying to point out that it isn't the mockery that harms the person as the mockery is just the outlet or daresay spell component for the psychic magical power that forces the way into the enemies head and short-circuits their brain.
It seems clear that your view of the complaints within this thread are much different from what I see here. You don't seem to take into account that "It's psychic damage" doesn't solve the issues people have with it. Your first conclusion seems to be that posters are ignoring that this power does psychic damage as opposed to the conclusion that they saw it and it didn't solve their problem.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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It seems clear that your view of the complaints within this thread are much different from what I see here. You don't seem to take into account that "It's psychic damage" doesn't solve the issues people have with it. Your first conclusion seems to be that posters are ignoring that this power does psychic damage as opposed to the conclusion that they saw it and it didn't solve their problem.I would accept it if you said you were super-charging the AOL CDs with explosive energy ala Gambit-style.
That being said it wasn't the mockery that harms the person and that is what everyone is complaining about "OMG HOW CAN MOCKING A PERSON DO HP DAMAGE! NONONONONONO! BAD WIZARDS OF THE COAST!"
I just keep trying to point out that it isn't the mockery that harms the person as the mockery is just the outlet or daresay spell component for the psychic magical power that forces the way into the enemies head and short-circuits their brain.
You're right, just saying "it does Psychic damage" doesn't necessarily negate the potential silliness of the power.
But I think there's a solid argument here for the insult being a verbal component of a spell. Personally, I don't find calling someone a "dung eating fool" as part of a spell to be any sillier than spouting off random arcane gibberish, as one is assumed to do when casting fireballs and magic missiles. I also don't find the concept of a lethal insult spell to be any sillier than a spell that makes people laugh uncontrollably, or a spell that forces them to dance. 3.5 even has the various Power Word spells, that use words, just words, to inflict harm on people.
But if you still find it silly, you're of course welcome to your opinion (and don't need my permission to have it). Agree to disagree?
But if you still find it silly, you're of course welcome to your opinion (and don't need my permission to have it). Agree to disagree?
I would like to note that I have no exceptional problem with the power.
Do I think it is a little bit silly? Yes. But this is D&D. I feel large chucks of the game have some degree of silliness embedded in them. So most of your post is somewhat preaching to the choir :) I was just noting issues I had with the assertions being made. I do have some wariness about, let's say, comedic powers like this, primarily if I were trying to set up a darker world, but then I think I would need to already make that clear to players making characters so - (I don't see my rambling on these tangent ending naturally anytime soon I will just cut it off right here and hope my thoughts are not lost :) )
I really do agree with the with that last paragraph though even though I feel it odd directed at myself. :)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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But if you still find it silly, you're of course welcome to your opinion (and don't need my permission to have it). Agree to disagree?I would like to note that I have no exceptional problem with the power.
Do I think it is a little bit silly? Yes. But this is D&D. I feel large chucks of the game have some degree of silliness embedded in them. So most of your post is somewhat preaching to the choir :) I was just noting issues I had with the assertions being made. I do have some wariness about, let's say, comedic powers like this, primarily if I were trying to set up a darker world, but then I think I would need to already make that clear to players making characters so - (I don't see my rambling on these tangent ending naturally anytime soon I will just cut it off right here and hope my thoughts are not lost :) )
I really do agree with the with that last paragraph though even though I feel it odd directed at myself. :)
Well, to be fair, I suppose I was using you as a proxy to those other elements of the thread more violently opposed the power, and for that I apologize. I mostly responded to you in particular because I thought Arcmagik had a good point about spell components, and looking back on your posts so far, it would probably have been better directed at someone else.