WotC halts PDF sales


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Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:

Oh wait, I need to be on-topic now.

Grrr. I'm angry. Grrr. Really angry. So very angry. Grrr. This move will ruin all life on earth. Grrr. People will wander the streets, destitute and without pdfs. Everyone will be a pirate, and then snipers will kill them. Grrr.

** spoiler omitted **

You are a pirate. I can tell.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Heathansson wrote:
Sebastian wrote:

Oh wait, I need to be on-topic now.

Grrr. I'm angry. Grrr. Really angry. So very angry. Grrr. This move will ruin all life on earth. Grrr. People will wander the streets, destitute and without pdfs. Everyone will be a pirate, and then snipers will kill them. Grrr.

** spoiler omitted **

You are a pirate. I can tell.

You'll walk the plank for making that claim, you scurvy dog.

Uh...wait...I mean...uh...pirates are bad. I'm not a pirate. No sir. Not me.

Scarab Sages

Oh, I know about the smurfing in general; I'm just puzzled by the fact that it's apparently kicking in when there seems to be no reason, and not kicking in when it should.
I'll do any digging off-board; I don't necessarily want the solution spilled to all and sundry.
Of course, if taig wants to send me a clue, my email address is in my profile...

Apologies to Disenchanter; back to the topic.

"This move outraged me so much, I put my foot through my monitor and sent WotC the bill!!!!1!!1!!!"


I be not a scurvy pirate neither. Yarr!

Dark Archive

Sebastian wrote:
Grrr.

Raaawr, back atcha, you magnificent beast.

Liberty's Edge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2012

Snorter wrote:

Oh, I know about the smurfing in general; I'm just puzzled by the fact that it's apparently kicking in when there seems to be no reason, and not kicking in when it should.

I'll do any digging off-board; I don't necessarily want the solution spilled to all and sundry.
Of course, if taig wants to send me a clue, my email address is in my profile...

Apologies to Disenchanter; back to the topic.

"This move outraged me so much, I put my foot through my monitor and sent WotC the bill!!!!1!!1!!!"

I started an off-topic smurfing thread here

Dark Archive

yoda8myhead wrote:
Disenchanter wrote:

I know what it signifies.

I've been around here long enough.

But if the community has moved on, why not use their right not to click on a thread?

Why force, or at least try to force, their ideals onto other people?

I used to think this was a more tolerant board. A more respectful board. But I am starting to see it is just as bad as all the others. It just changes the methodology to throwing confetti instead of insults.

As if posters aren't smart enough to see through it.

There's nothing stopping you from continuing the non-smurf discourse. Some threads are even rescued from the blue if enough people get back on topic.

Two things, one throwing confetti is much more fun then hurling insults if you ask me. Two, smurfing, at least to me, is just my way of trying to remind people that they are taking things way to seriously, particularly when it is just a game. Smurf me baby one more time.


So all you have to do is put the word Smurf in your post and your icon will change to a random smurf?


Thats so cool! IS anything else done like that? Angels? Devils? Demons?

Dark Archive

Treebore the Ruby Lord wrote:
Thats so cool! IS anything else done like that? Angels? Devils? Demons?

Nope, not even snorks.


Sebastian wrote:
pres man wrote:
Snorter wrote:
taig wrote:
This has no blue creatures in it.

OK; this is now getting silly.

I can see no clues in your BBCode, so it's got to be something else.
I have my suspicions, but as to proving it...hmmmm....
I wonder if this is a hold over from some April Fool's joke that never quite got taken out of the system.
Yeah, the smurfing thing dates back to April Fool's...2007? There were a couple "features" introduced for that day, including filters that made your posts sound pirate-ish, full of swearing, etc. I think one of the off-topic threads still has those filters in effect (the untitled thread maybe).

Right, but I was talking about the current issue and the "holiday" that was about 2 weeks ago.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

pres man wrote:


Right, but I was talking about the current issue and the "holiday" that was about 2 weeks ago.

Eh? What's the current issue? Now I'm completely lost.

Spoiler:

But still angry. Grrr. Very angry.


pres man wrote:
I wonder if this is a hold over from some April Fool's joke that never quite got taken out of the system.

I believe it is just the effect of an optimization to make smurfing more efficient and not related at all to this years April Fools day.

Disenchanter wrote:

I know what it signifies.

I've been around here long enough.

But if the community has moved on, why not use their right not to click on a thread?

Why force, or at least try to force, their ideals onto other people?

I used to think this was a more tolerant board. A more respectful board. But I am starting to see it is just as bad as all the others. It just changes the methodology to throwing confetti instead of insults.

As if posters aren't smart enough to see through it.

To me, is it a way to note that, more or less, that this arguments going on within the thread mean very little to the community at large. That if many people just don't care about this discussion, that they are possibly treating it with more seriousness and grandeur than it needs or deserves to be.

This is the preferred method for getting this point across for me, as it takes pretty much no time, and if very few people agree with my assessment, then nothing is going to happen.

If it were just insults being lobbed into the thread, then that would likely just make the thread more serious and spark more insult lobbing from everyone, causing the thread to fall apart and be locked even if a majority of people wanted to continue the discussion.

Also, even if the thread is being smurfed, it doesn't really stop the arguments if some people really want to keep them going. Those people can easily can keep going, and it is much easier to ignore a random smurf, than it is to ignore a random insult. To myself at least.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

Treebore the Ruby Lord wrote:
Thats so cool! IS anything else done like that? Angels? Devils? Demons?

There are some other filters and things that Gary has hiding about, but that's the main one. And no one knows when he'll add in another one.

RPG Superstar 2012

Blazej wrote:
pres man wrote:
I wonder if this is a hold over from some April Fool's joke that never quite got taken out of the system.

I believe it is just the effect of an optimization to make smurfing more efficient and not related at all to this years April Fools day.

Disenchanter wrote:

I know what it signifies.

I've been around here long enough.

But if the community has moved on, why not use their right not to click on a thread?

Why force, or at least try to force, their ideals onto other people?

I used to think this was a more tolerant board. A more respectful board. But I am starting to see it is just as bad as all the others. It just changes the methodology to throwing confetti instead of insults.

As if posters aren't smart enough to see through it.

To me, is it a way to note that, more or less, that this arguments going on within the thread mean very little to the community at large. That if many people just don't care about this discussion, that they are possibly treating it with more seriousness and grandeur than it needs or deserves to be.

This is the preferred method for getting this point across for me, as it takes pretty much no time, and if very few people agree with my assessment, then nothing is going to happen.

If it were just insults being lobbed into the thread, then that would likely just make the thread more serious and spark more insult lobbing from everyone, causing the thread to fall apart and be locked even if a majority of people wanted to continue the discussion.

Also, even if the thread is being smurfed, it doesn't really stop the arguments if some people really want to keep them going. Those people can easily can keep going, and it is much easier to ignore a random smurf, than it is to ignore a random insult. To myself at least.

Admittedly, the smurfing got out of control on this thread.


taig wrote:
Admittedly, the smurfing got out of control on this thread.

Smurf


Blazej wrote:


To me, is it a way to note that, more or less, that this arguments going on within the thread mean very little to the community at large. That if many people just don't care about this discussion, that they are possibly treating it with more seriousness and grandeur than it needs or deserves to be.

This is the preferred method for getting this point across for me, as it takes pretty much no time, and if very few people agree with my assessment, then nothing is going to happen.

If it were just insults being lobbed into the thread, then that would likely just make the thread more serious and spark more insult lobbing from everyone, causing the thread to fall apart and be locked even if a majority of people wanted to continue the discussion.

Also, even if the thread is being *****ed, it doesn't really stop the arguments if some people really want to keep them going. Those people can easily can keep going, and it is much easier to ignore a random *****, than it is to ignore a random insult. To myself at least.

Your explanation comes as cold confort to me, posting as I am from 14 years and 3 months in the future. The constant use of "*****ing" (you'll forgive me for not posting the full word, but I think you will understand shortly the power it holds) caused the Paizo message boards to break somewhere in October 2011. I apologize for not having the exact date handy, but I am being hunted by dogs (cybernetically enhanced) and don't have access to my files.

I find no humor in the destruction this has wrought.

There is nothing funny about those blue devils.

Liberty's Edge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2012

Dislocator wrote:

Your explanation comes as cold confort to me, posting as I am from 14 years and 3 months in the future. The constant use of "*****ing" (you'll forgive me for not posting the full word, but I think you will understand shortly the power it holds) caused the Paizo message boards to break somewhere in October 2011. I apologize for not having the exact date handy, but I am being hunted by dogs (cybernetically enhanced) and don't have access to my files.

I find no humor in the destruction this has wrought.

There is nothing funny about those blue devils.

What does Duke University have to do with this?


taig wrote:
Dislocator wrote:

Your explanation comes as cold confort to me, posting as I am from 14 years and 3 months in the future. The constant use of "*****ing" (you'll forgive me for not posting the full word, but I think you will understand shortly the power it holds) caused the Paizo message boards to break somewhere in October 2011. I apologize for not having the exact date handy, but I am being hunted by dogs (cybernetically enhanced) and don't have access to my files.

I find no humor in the destruction this has wrought.

There is nothing funny about those blue devils.

What does Duke University have to do with this?

Sorry. I thought my post was clear. I was referring to small blue creatures that are ruining discourse here on Paizo and on the internet generally.

To clarify, it is the Samurfing (spelled wrong intentionally to avoid the avatar) that will destroy Paizo and ruin the ability of the internet to communicate clearly.

I speak with great personal knowledge about this topic.


Dislocator wrote:


Sorry. I thought my post was clear. I was referring to small blue creatures that are ruining discourse here on Paizo and on the internet generally.

To clarify, it is the Samurfing (spelled wrong intentionally to avoid the avatar) that will destroy Paizo and ruin the ability of the internet to communicate clearly.

I speak with great personal knowledge about this topic.

No way, Samurfing will be the end all be all of all internet communication! I'm no Samurfing Grognard! </snark>

Liberty's Edge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2012

Dislocator wrote:

Sorry. I thought my post was clear. I was referring to small blue creatures that are ruining discourse here on Paizo and on the internet generally.

To clarify, it is the Samurfing (spelled wrong intentionally to avoid the avatar) that will destroy Paizo and ruin the ability of the internet to communicate clearly.

I speak with great personal knowledge about this topic.

It is good to have an authority who resides on the Internet. You don't run into that very often.

I am glad that the invasion will not start at Duke University. It is about 80 miles from where I live. I will no longer worry needlessly.


OK. But has anyone figured out the correct adresses?

MisterSlanky wrote:
Brix wrote:


adresses don't work....
Addresses may not work, but the technique usually does. I spent a grand total of 15 minutes doing that legwork. If you're interested in getting a list of people who care, I can say the list of the board of directors is correct, you're just going to have to figure out the e-mail format.


Oh look.

A useful post.

Everyone smurf him. :S

Dark Archive

May the smurf be with you.


Jason Beardsley wrote:
May the smurf be with you.

No thanks. I have no use for child attracting bait.


This is good advice. The damage done by the little blue men and the immature posters that use them did more than destroy Paizo. It also prevented a grass-roots movement to email the Wizards of the Coast board of directors.

An email like this would have resulted in the pdfs being put back on the market. And, though I am not a future alternate-historian, this would have prevented the dogs mentioned in my prior post from killing millions.

Again. This is not funny. This is not a big joke. This is serious.


Dislocator wrote:

This is good advice. The damage done by the little blue men and the immature posters that use them did more than destroy Paizo. It also prevented a grass-roots movement to email the Wizards of the Coast board of directors.

An email like this would have resulted in the pdfs being put back on the market. And, though I am not a future alternate-historian, this would have prevented the dogs mentioned in my prior post from killing millions.

Again. This is not funny. This is not a big joke. This is serious.

Wait. Now the Blue Man Group is going to unleash dogs on us?

The Exchange

Dislocator wrote:


Sorry. I thought my post was clear.

It was, but you OBVIOUSLY lack a sarcasm gene, as well as any kind of sense of humor whatsoever. And if you really think talking to the WOTC board of directors would solve anything, you're also living in a fantasy land.

A fantasy land with no sense of humor seems like a very sucky place to be. I feel sorry for you, I really do.


Disenchanter wrote:

Oh look.

A useful post.

Everyone smurf him. :S

How can that message be considered useful? There are no smurfs in it.

There haven't been useful posts in this thread in at least 25-28 pages. Just pointless argument and posturing. The smurfs have salvaged an otherwise useless waste of bandwidth.


Fiendish Dire Weasel wrote:
Dislocator wrote:


Sorry. I thought my post was clear.

It was, but you OBVIOUSLY lack a sarcasm gene, as well as any kind of sense of humor whatsoever. And if you really think talking to the WOTC board of directors would solve anything, you're also living in a fantasy land.

A fantasy land with no sense of humor seems like a very sucky place to be. I feel sorry for you, I really do.

Sarcasm is not, to my knowledge, genetically based. Nor is it present in this thread, which only seems to attract posters intent on driving away legitimate conversations about important issues like this.

I play D&D to escape to a fantasy land. This is reality, and these forced attempts at humor are endangering reality.

Again, if you're not going to post about this very serious issue, please do everyone who is interested in continuing this conversation a favor, and post on another thread.

The Exchange

*rolls eyes*

Who died and made you moderator?


Fiendish Dire Weasel wrote:

*rolls eyes*

Who died and made you moderator?

Oh, no! Did the Blue Man Group get Gary too?


Long live the smurf!

When an argument gets too circular, it's time for smurfs to step in.

Dark Archive

Brix wrote:

OK. But has anyone figured out the correct adresses?

MisterSlanky wrote:
Brix wrote:


adresses don't work....
Addresses may not work, but the technique usually does. I spent a grand total of 15 minutes doing that legwork. If you're interested in getting a list of people who care, I can say the list of the board of directors is correct, you're just going to have to figure out the e-mail format.

I don't know. If someone does get them, I hope we see them here. I think it might be an effective tool.

Ironically, since this topic has cooled a bit, I've given it some more thought. For instance, I knew that with the announcement of a digital agenda (that's what I'm calling it), WoTC was attempting to bridge two markets (MMORPGs and Table Top), growing the hobby. I suspected some of the changes that might come about wouldn't be as smooth as I'd like, but would be necessary steps. Especially, if in the end, the game we knew and loved grew proportionately because of it.

I didn't, however, expect the seemingly* dishonest approach being taken. Moreover, I didn't expect the shift to be so radical. I expected gradual shifts, slowly incorporating the new technology as it became available, enriching the system and community as a whole. I was especially excited about the DDI experience, with the potential to run games for friends back in the States.

Of course, my expectations haven't been met (and that's not WoTC's fault, they were "my" expectations, after all, well-founded or not).

Nonetheless, the changes that have come haven't left "me" with a good feeling. There is a sense of dishonesty (logical or not, that's how it's perceived), a lack of foresight, and the growing sensation that the people running the company just aren't in touch with their fan base. Or perhaps, more appropriately, I'm not really among their fan base and I'm the one that's lost touch.

So, I don't know. What I do know is this recent move has only solidified my desire to boycott their games until I feel their company is more forethright and open about the game their building. They certainly don't have to be, and I accept that. Of course, I don't have to give them m money, either.

* I don't know that it is, but it sure feels that way.

PS ...In all the years I've been lurking here, I didn't know that using the "S" word changed your icon for that post. Weird.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Dislocator wrote:

This is good advice. The damage done by the little blue men and the immature posters that use them did more than destroy Paizo. It also prevented a grass-roots movement to email the Wizards of the Coast board of directors.

An email like this would have resulted in the pdfs being put back on the market. And, though I am not a future alternate-historian, this would have prevented the dogs mentioned in my prior post from killing millions.

Again. This is not funny. This is not a big joke. This is serious.

Two by two, hands of blue.

Sovereign Court

Dislocator wrote:
Fiendish Dire Weasel wrote:
Dislocator wrote:


Sorry. I thought my post was clear.

It was, but you OBVIOUSLY lack a sarcasm gene, as well as any kind of sense of humor whatsoever. And if you really think talking to the WOTC board of directors would solve anything, you're also living in a fantasy land.

A fantasy land with no sense of humor seems like a very sucky place to be. I feel sorry for you, I really do.

Sarcasm is not, to my knowledge, genetically based. Nor is it present in this thread, which only seems to attract posters intent on driving away legitimate conversations about important issues like this.

I play D&D to escape to a fantasy land. This is reality, and these forced attempts at humor are endangering reality.

Again, if you're not going to post about this very serious issue, please do everyone who is interested in continuing this conversation a favor, and post on another thread.

Two things:

First, Smurf.

Second - I wonder if that's true about the Hasbro folks? I am open to thinking we live in a fantasy land, because we happen to be a community that does from time to time. However, I wonder just how "useless" contacting the board of directors might be. Sometimes the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.

And we all know what their right hand is doing right now.
Seriously, though, if anyone does have a good address or contact information - please share - communication is worth a shot.

So, smurf it anyhow.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Leaf Ericson wrote:
Dislocator wrote:

This is good advice. The damage done by the little blue men and the immature posters that use them did more than destroy Paizo. It also prevented a grass-roots movement to email the Wizards of the Coast board of directors.

An email like this would have resulted in the pdfs being put back on the market. And, though I am not a future alternate-historian, this would have prevented the dogs mentioned in my prior post from killing millions.

Again. This is not funny. This is not a big joke. This is serious.

Wait. Now the Blue Man Group is going to unleash dogs on us?

Are these related to the Blue Hands group?! Run for the hills!


I was impressed with these boards and the polite discourse that went on here. The smurf crap though ... if you don't like the thread, don't read it. If some people want to vent for longer than you, or debate the finer points of inflated sales numbers, ratios of players to books or other minutiae, why can't you leave us to it?

Where's Gargamel when you need him? :)


Just wondering what's the status on the PDF's for Dragonlance and Ravenloft 3e, as I recall they were lincened out? Not that I'm really part of the PDF market but no ones mentioned that at all.

TTFN DRE


DracoGangsta wrote:

Just wondering what's the status on the PDF's for Dragonlance and Ravenloft 3e, as I recall they were lincened out? Not that I'm really part of the PDF market but no ones mentioned that at all.

TTFN DRE

AFAIK they are okay, I checked after the... ahem... "announcement." I'm still a wee bit bitter over the 2e stuff I was getting ready to purchase not being available. I'll leave it at that.

/d


David Fryer wrote:
Two, threadcrapping, at least to me, is just my way of trying to remind people that they are taking things way to seriously, particularly when it is just a game.

Don't give me that "it's just a game" nonsense. This isn't shoots and ladders. People have spend time and money on this hobby.

Do you expect them to say "Oh, look, they're destroying the game I've been playing for years (or decades) and have spent hundreds (or thousands, or tens of thousands) on. Well, I guess I'll have ice cream instead."


David Fryer wrote:
Two, threadcrapping, at least to me, is just my way of trying to remind people that they are taking things way to seriously, particularly when it is just a game.

I never really understood the "it's just a game" line. Given how much time (and money) we spend on that hobby, I'd think anyone would consider it important - at least I'd rather not think I'd spend so much time (and money) on something that's not important enough to care.

That's my point of view as someone who's working full time though - maybe those with more spare time have a different perspective.


Taliesin Hoyle wrote:
benjover wrote:

Crap!!!!

And I was just thinking about finally getting around to downloading my Pathfinder PDF's!

Damn you procrastination! And damn you WOTC!

If only I'd checked my email yesterday. SOB

Dude. Pathfinder has nothing to do with WotC. Paizo has no intention of taking away the pdf rights for Pathfinder.

This affects only digital products from TSR, and from WotC.

Sweet, thank you!

I was playing with my Jump to Conclusions matt and got carried away.


benjover wrote:
Taliesin Hoyle wrote:
benjover wrote:

Crap!!!!

And I was just thinking about finally getting around to downloading my Pathfinder PDF's!

Damn you procrastination! And damn you WOTC!

If only I'd checked my email yesterday. SOB

Dude. Pathfinder has nothing to do with WotC. Paizo has no intention of taking away the pdf rights for Pathfinder.

This affects only digital products from TSR, and from WotC.

Sweet, thank you!

I was playing with my Jump to Conclusions matt and got carried away.

Wow, you have dug something up from about 25.000 posts ago?

Anyway, you might still want to make haste, though, since those PF PDFs are 35% off this month.


Fiendish Dire Weasel wrote:
A fantasy land with no sense of humor seems like a very sucky place to be.

Isn't that the World of Darkness...?

[Ducks and runs for cover]


ericthecleric wrote:
Fiendish Dire Weasel wrote:
A fantasy land with no sense of humor seems like a very sucky place to be.

Isn't that the World of Darkness...?

[Ducks and runs for cover]

Speak for yourself. It's a very dark sense of humor, with a big dose of Schadenfreude, but a laugh is a laugh }>


Now Mr.Leeds want to listen to the us or so he says.

click me

Dark Archive

wraithstrike wrote:

Now Mr.Leeds want to listen to the us or so he says.

click me

Awesome, although others also made the suggestion. (I don't recall if I was the first one, honestly - and the email bomb to the BoD wasn't my idea, so I can't take credit.). However, I fully support the decision to go forward with this line of thinking.

EDIT: Here's my suggestions for pre-4e material.

1) Copy Paizo. Set up a storefront that watermarks the .pdfs with you sell with the time of purchase, name, and e-mail of who pruchased it. If pirated, ban that particular user.

2) Make .pdfs an attractive, viable option that discourages piracy. I'm thinking, "the price of a cup of coffee" per .pdf should encourage people.

3) Offer a limited number of downloads, say 5. Suggest he look at Apple's business model, aka iTunes, in how many computers can be linked to a particular purchase.

4) Encourage cross-pollination between 4e and older editions. Provide links from purchased 1, 2, and 3.x material to the 4e version as it becomes available, encouraging people to explore the newest edition of the game.

5) Include the customer base in your decision making process, or at a minimum, consider that they make and break this game. Treat them accordingly by being forethright and open, without disclosing the particulars of your business plan.

"Hey, we're exploring the possibility of removing .pdfs or changing formats to combat piracy and protect our intellectual property" is far more preferrable to "pulled down the .pdfs without warning."

6) Consider developing a magazine that supports all editions, albeit without focusing on them. Try tieing in prior editions to the current game edition, but without alienating the fan base of prior editions. It will increase your market and warm fans to newer ideas.

(You're free to share my suggestions with Mr. Leeds)


ericthecleric wrote:
A fantasy land with no sense of humor seems like a very sucky place to be.
Fiendish Dire Weasel wrote:
Isn't that the World of Darkness...? [Ducks and runs for cover]
KaeYoss wrote:
Speak for yourself. It's a very dark sense of humor, with a big dose of Schadenfreude, but a laugh is a laugh }>

I find WoD is more an epicaricactic universe--every adventure there is just another Roman holiday...


UPDATE:
In order to make it easier for me to file your ideas and solutions about how to pimp WotC please refer to the following topics only:

* 4E (WoW-like game not liked by many)
* Licence issues (OGL, GSL)
* Setting support (e.g. New Forgotten Realms alienating old fans)
* pdf policy
* Layoffs of fan favorite designers
* Cancellation of print magazines
* D&D Insider

Thanks.

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