WotC halts PDF sales


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Isn't this move to halt PDF sales actually going to hurt their lawsuit? My recollection of U.S. copyright law (IANAL) is that in order to collect damages on copyright infringement, you have to demonstrate that the act in question negatively impacted your sales/income/insert some lawyerly term here. Or are they just going for the "moral" win here?


Treebore the Ruby Lord wrote:
Edit 2: Well, wherever they said 4E was outselling 3E, it wasn't in the court documents. I didn't spot it after reading through twice, anyways.

I'm only going by memory, but I believe it was a quote by Scott Rouse over on ENWorld.


Malleus Aforethought wrote:
Isn't this move to halt PDF sales actually going to hurt their lawsuit? My recollection of U.S. copyright law (IANAL) is that in order to collect damages on copyright infringement, you have to demonstrate that the act in question negatively impacted your sales/income/insert some lawyerly term here. Or are they just going for the "moral" win here?

No, because the PDF pirating can also be argued to be hurting print sales too.


Robert Miller 55 wrote:
Malleus Aforethought wrote:
Isn't this move to halt PDF sales actually going to hurt their lawsuit? My recollection of U.S. copyright law (IANAL) is that in order to collect damages on copyright infringement, you have to demonstrate that the act in question negatively impacted your sales/income/insert some lawyerly term here. Or are they just going for the "moral" win here?
No, because the PDF pirating can also be argued to be hurting print sales too.

Even so, killing off a segment of revenue can't be helpful to their argument.

[EDIT: inadvertently switched identities...]


Malleus Aforethought wrote:
Robert Miller 55 wrote:
Malleus Aforethought wrote:
Isn't this move to halt PDF sales actually going to hurt their lawsuit? My recollection of U.S. copyright law (IANAL) is that in order to collect damages on copyright infringement, you have to demonstrate that the act in question negatively impacted your sales/income/insert some lawyerly term here. Or are they just going for the "moral" win here?
No, because the PDF pirating can also be argued to be hurting print sales too.

Even so, killing off a segment of revenue can't be helpful to their argument.

[EDIT: inadvertently switched identities...]

No, I don't think it is either, but they can definitely point to print sales, and they can also say all sales lost from discontinuing them (PDF sales) is also the fault of the pirates, and add the loss of sales to the law suite.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Scott Betts wrote:


As I've pointed out elsewhere, the number of people who bought the books and don't play is probably dwarfed by the number of people who didn't by the books but who play anyway - whether by using communally available books (the DM's, their friend's, a library's) or by using illegal digital copies of the books.

I won't argue with that - it seems a reasonable assumption to me. On the other hand, how many of those people who are playing without their own legal copies of the core books or at least Player's Handbook are going to rush out and buy the next one that comes out? For purposes of revenue, they don't have much if any immediate effect on WotC's profit. They may buy their own if they come into the money for it eventually, but if they can't do that, they're not buying the later books either.


Disenchanter wrote:


Tricky and misleading, but not an outright lie.

I make no difference between the two. Either you want ot deceive, or you don't. Semantics mean nothing to me.

Dark Archive

MisterSlanky wrote:
Pax Veritas wrote:

Can anyone provide an e-mail address of a hasbro or wotc exec where we can write to?

Has anyone written? A good friend, and game store owner asked me if I had spoken with hasbro. But is it even possible that customer feedback is not getting through?

I can give it a shot...It's called an Executive e-mail Carpet Bomb (EECB for short). Putting together an EECB's pretty easy. First you need to find a list of the e-mail addresses for the:

Board of Directors and/or other VPs.

Then you need to find the layout of their:

"typical" e-mail address which can be confirmed to be the correct format by looking up the user on LinkedIn.

Hey look at that, the person I found happened to be the Manager of Community Relations at Hasbro, Brandon Keough.

Then you combine the two:

Board of Directors
averrecchia@hasbro.com
banderson@hasbro.com
abatkin@hasbro.com
fbiondi@hasbro.com
kbrofin@hasbro.com
jconnors@hasbro.com
mgarrett@hasbro.com
ggee@hasbro.com
bgoldner@hasbro.com
jgreenberg@hasbro.com
ahassenfeld@hasbro.com
tleinbach@hasbro.com
ephilip@hasbro.com
pstern@hasbro.com

Now, write everybody in this list (including Brandon) a politely worded, well thought out e-mail explaining your feelings to the situation. Explain (without threats) what their actions have done to your perceptions of Hasbro and WotC and let them know exactly what you think of their business practices...

And get everybody you know to do the same.

This technique is very powerful and it works. This is speaking from experience. I had cell phone provider issues and was given the run-around for two weeks from T-Mobile. One EECB got me a response directly from the VP of Consumer Affairs and an immediate resolution to my issues (the e-mail came within 2 hours). And stories...

Thank you for this informaiton.


[bizarre fantasy tinfoil hat theory] Umm, as a thought, maybe 4e does have as many players as some of the claims of millions which have been going around (which seem a bit strange given print-runs only in the hundreds of thousands), but most of those people were playing using pirate versions of the PDFs....
In which case depending on whether or not they could have afforded to/would have bought the books otherwise, Wizards of the Coast may have just drastically slashed the number of 4E players around, if any such hypothetical pirate players feel put out at no longer having PDFs of new material to grab to improve their (illegal) experience. [/bizarre fantasy tinfoil hat theory]

Oh, and smurf.


Have a happy smurfin' Recovery Day

Dark Archive

Vic Wertz wrote:
The documents in question were not PDFs, but the presentation was PDF-like. (And it was Windows-only.)

Windows only = Ick.


Mommy, make the smurfy man stop the merry-go-round. I want to get off.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The Legend of Reckless Smurf Continues?

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Reckless wrote:
The Legend of Reckless Smurf Continues?

Um.. Why didn't your avatar change into a smurf..

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I've become Smurfmune

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Reckless wrote:
The Legend of Reckless Smurf Continues?

Am I smurfmune?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Are you a Weresmurf?

Dark Archive

Reckless wrote:
I've become Smurfmune

That's nuts!


Depends on how you smur[ooc][/ooc]f it.

Liberty's Edge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2012

What the smurf?

Liberty's Edge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2012

Wow, smurfy!

Dark Archive

I don't understand this.. what's going on.. this is just downright smurfy

Dark Archive

What the smurf is going on?

Sovereign Court

Is the smurfing filter broken?

Dark Archive

Robert Hawkshaw wrote:
Is the smurfing filter broken?

Only for some people apparently.

Dark Archive

Robert Hawkshaw wrote:
Is the smurfing filter broken?

It's smurfed

Dark Archive

taig wrote:
What the smurf?

Dark Archive

KaeYoss wrote:
Depends on how you smur[/ooc]f it.

Thats smur[i][/i]fed up. I keep getting sm[ooc]urfed.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Aw man. I come to the thread late and it's already been smurfed. But what about *my* angry rant!?!?! I'm certain that I have something new and insightful to say that hasn't been touched upon in the...

past 29 pages?

Aw f+$+ it. Even I know when a horse corpse should be left undisturbed.


WoTC has forced Paizo to limit the use of smurfs. There was no notice. We're smurfed. ;)

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

testing my smurfiness...

[edit:] and I'm not only still smurfable, but I'm also smurfette.

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Emperor7 wrote:
WoTC has forced Paizo to limit the use of smurfs. There was no notice. We're smurfed. ;)

Good smurfing heck. Are they going to make Smurf: The Gathering?

Dark Archive

Sebastian wrote:

Aw man. I come to the thread late and it's already been smurfed. But what about *my* angry rant!?!?! I'm certain that I have something new and insightful to say that hasn't been touched upon in the...

past 29 pages?

Aw f!@~ it. Even I know when a horse corpse should be left undisturbed.

Where you been man?! You're late for the party..


I demand that all avatars be replaced by smurfs and that we all sit around eating Smurfberry Crunch cereal.


Sebastian wrote:

Aw f%~* it. Even I know when a horse corpse should be left undisturbed.

Well you are the smurfing horse lord.


yoda8myhead wrote:

testing my smurfiness...

[edit:] and I'm not only still smurfable, but I'm also smurfette.

We should shoot for a whole page of smurfs.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

How the smurfed is the program breaking down.

Liberty's Edge

It's always the smurfs...

Edit: Typical. I get the evil cloned infiltrator.


I think the system rewards people who smurf in relation to frequency, so my policy is smurf, and smurf often.


It's not very smurfy to discriminate by gender. Keep in mind: we only have one Smurfette to begin with.


adresses don't work....

Jason Sonia wrote:
MisterSlanky wrote:
Pax Veritas wrote:

Can anyone provide an e-mail address of a hasbro or wotc exec where we can write to?

Has anyone written? A good friend, and game store owner asked me if I had spoken with hasbro. But is it even possible that customer feedback is not getting through?

I can give it a shot...It's called an Executive e-mail Carpet Bomb (EECB for short). Putting together an EECB's pretty easy. First you need to find a list of the e-mail addresses for the:

Board of Directors and/or other VPs.

Then you need to find the layout of their:

"typical" e-mail address which can be confirmed to be the correct format by looking up the user on LinkedIn.

Hey look at that, the person I found happened to be the Manager of Community Relations at Hasbro, Brandon Keough.

Then you combine the two:

Board of Directors
averrecchia@hasbro.com
banderson@hasbro.com
abatkin@hasbro.com
fbiondi@hasbro.com
kbrofin@hasbro.com
jconnors@hasbro.com
mgarrett@hasbro.com
ggee@hasbro.com
bgoldner@hasbro.com
jgreenberg@hasbro.com
ahassenfeld@hasbro.com
tleinbach@hasbro.com
ephilip@hasbro.com
pstern@hasbro.com

...

Scarab Sages

Sebastian wrote:
Aw smurf it. Even I know when a horse corpse should be left undisturbed.

That's what you told your defence attorney, at least...


How long before I can buy my copy of Planescape: Faction War now? It seems like only last week I was able to purchase TSR .pdfs from this website, making money for Paizo and WotC. It seemed like a pretty easy system. Apparently I should have been stealing them, like every single one of you!

Especially you.


Vic Wertz wrote:


The documents in question were not PDFs, but the presentation was PDF-like. (And it was Windows-only.)

-1 for being locked a specific OS.

How did it compare to the NYT reader? The NYT Reader is flash based, which is nice for those of us who avoid windows.

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F33b wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:


The documents in question were not PDFs, but the presentation was PDF-like. (And it was Windows-only.)

-1 for being locked a specific OS.

How did it compare to the NYT reader? The NYT Reader is flash based, which is nice for those of us who avoid windows.

Ja, this.

Oh, and smurf.

RPG Superstar 2012

smurf smurf smurf smurf


Alas for Taig, for he hath been cast our of smurfdom.

ADD: Yesterday some smurfs later showed up for people for whom they did not immediately show up, much to their greater smurfification. (I guess this is a case of delayed smurfification?) Who will be stricken with asmurfism next?

Dark Archive

taig wrote:
smurf smurf smurf smurf

Calm down.. smurf :P lol

Scarab Sages

taig wrote:
smurf smurf smurf smurf

How are you DOING that?

I thought they'd cut off all the dodges.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hm, this shouldn't be too difficult ... *alternate form* ... and a new smurf is born.

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