Okay, I've been playing and running DnD since Basic Set (Oh god what uber powergaming kids we were), and 3.* since it came out. I will be converting to Pathfinder when the final version is out.
What this generally entails for me is shifting and modifying my custom races and balancing them all out. But something I've noticed since 3.0 first came out, with very rare exceptions, we've had a fantasy game of humans. Why? Well, lets face it, that extra feat and the skill points is a monsterous bonus, far more in nearly every situation than any of the other racial bonuses. My question:
Why choose a race other than human?
Now, here's what I mean by it. Sure, "Well, elves are cool" or for my character background/vision... ignore those lines of thoughts. I'm talking a numbers crunching logic view... (All my gamers are mathematically inclined in their jobs/lives).
Take human vs. Elven wizards: Ignore the optional Favored class rule in Pathfinder (which I like but truth told makes humans even more favorable) Epic point buy, Planned all wizard.
Human stats: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10.
Elven Stats: Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10.
Less hitpoints, 1 more armor, toss up on which is better or worse depending on your philosophy. All in all, in building stat points, they're more or less a wash across the board.
Of matterable/desierable abilities:
Human: Free feat, Skilled.
Elf: Extra 2pts for penetration, Low-Light Vision(not as matterable, but more than the lesser ones IMO)
Lesser materable abilities:
Most of the other benefits from the races, yes sleep is nice, bonus to compulsion nice.. not huge for a wizard as example)
All in all, when under discussion, humans still seem to be and are the chosen race, why? Skill points and Feat.
Suggestions of "You don't know what you're doing" are unhelpful and meaningless to me... 2nd edition and before there were many non humans in all my campaigns.. not so much since 3.0+, and less so in Pathfinder (due to humans getting to add 2 to a stat)
Suggestions/Philosophy/ideas/Insights?
Thanks
Weave
You are looking at Elves.
Check out Dwarves, if you want to see how powerful a "non-human" can be!
You are looking at Elves.
Check out Dwarves, if you want to see how powerful a "non-human" can be!
I have, Slow and steady is nice the CMB is nice... they're still a movement of 20 which is a major negative... Would I, or my players, take a dwarf over a human as a fighter.. it's a cointoss, still on the subject of feat and skill points (stats still a wash across the board) .. Any small race is far under par with the possible exception of gnome, most notably for the speed half-orc, a complete joke comparitively, etc etc....
I've made several home brew modifications for my races to make the more desierable, using the Race Creation guide as at least a baseline for some stuff (which it's a definitely imperfect, and not precise way, but it's a good starting point and then wiggling around with) to bring some of these crappier races up to par (as well as axe the ubergod races, catfolk for example) They're more or less the Pathfinder races with some mods here and there to make them more world specific... and still, generally speaking, Why take anything but a human? (Once more, dealing with number crunching math-types)
Weave
Sorry, made an edit and specified as a class
Creative Director
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If you'd rather see more non-human characters in your game, by all means adjust their abilities to make them more attractive to number crunchers. Or simply remove all ability score modifiers from humans and leave that to the demihumans.
The baseline for Pathfinder RPG assumes human, though, so if that means there'll be a majority of them in the baseline game, that's working as intended, to be honest. The demihumans are supposed to excel at certain types of builds, but humans are supposed to outshine them overall on average, more or less.
THAT said... a great reason to play a non-human is because of roleplaying decisions. Playing an elf or a dwarf or a gnome or a half-elf or a half-orc gives you some cool built-in roleplaying stuff to play with that the generic human lacks.
Human: +2 to one stat, one martial weapon proficiency, one extra skill point per level, one feat
Half-Elf: +2 to one stat, low-light vision, +2 vs. enchantment effects, +2 to Perception, secret door radar sense, Skill Focus
That seems like a toss-up to me, unless you're really desperate for skill points. Likewise, Human vs. Half-Orc seems like a toss-up if you're playing a martial class.
Personally, I think that the human's bonus feat (their big attraction in 3.5) is less important in Pathfinder, since everyone gets more feats. YMMV, of course.
If you'd rather see more non-human characters in your game, by all means adjust their abilities to make them more attractive to number crunchers. Or simply remove all ability score modifiers from humans and leave that to the demihumans.
THAT said... a great reason to play a non-human is because of roleplaying decisions. Playing an elf or a dwarf or a gnome or a half-elf or a half-orc gives you some cool built-in roleplaying stuff to play with that the generic human lacks.
Ya know I agree with you on the RP reasons, honestly. And also see demi-humans excel in certian situations.. but the things that the various demi-humans excel at when compared to a human in the same situation (talking favored class for example) human still usually wins out, or at best ends up in a coin-toss situation.
And believe me, I have concidered removing the human stats, or modifying them to 2 +1's even (Though honestly, number crunching you tend to get bigger bang for buck like that :P)
Another option of mine is to adjust humans so that their racial feat is based upon the region of my world that they are from instead of any, as example, thus limiting their versatility, which I don't really want to do, but is an option...
I'm just curious for options from the community at large.. yes, humans are the staple of the world... but honestly after, what, nearly 9 years of play in the 3.* world (I think it came out in 2000.. but memory is flakey at times) the disparity I've seen is a bit extreme where in nearly every case, the best that can be said is "Well, it's a coin toss to go with <insert race> over human in this situation"
BTW I really appreciate the insight and comments made, even if I have an excuse/comment for it.... I'm honestly looking for ideas or insights that I may be missing.
Weave
Why choose a race other than human?
Why indeed... because if you have the vintage and fine gaming background you have outlined, you'd be aware there is more to life than stats on a page.
Some days you just want to roleplay a grumpy Dwarf, a thieving Halfling, an inquisitive gnome, or a foppish Elf or just about any other thing that might enter your head as a nice storytelling concept.
On the other hand there might be a storyline totally geared around being a particular race as well.
Because some days, its just makes sense to have pointy ears.
Edit - and nothing says "sneaking in the dark" tactics like a Human Ranger or Thief bashing into things they cant see. Blind-Fighting wont cut it there.
Human: +2 to one stat, one martial weapon proficiency, one extra skill point per level, one feat
Half-Elf: +2 to one stat, low-light vision, +2 vs. enchantment effects, +2 to Perception, secret door radar sense, Skill Focus
Likewise, Human vs. Half-Orc seems like a toss-up if you're playing a martial class.
Personally, I think that the human's bonus feat (their big attraction in 3.5) is less important in Pathfinder, since everyone gets more feats. YMMV, of course.
That's one thing I keep forgetting, is the every other level feat in Pathfinder. you basically end up with 3 more feats than you did in 3.5, not positive if that's still worth much less than it be, definitely less yes, but feats are still king.
But honestly, the skill points are something pointed out as a factor(and the discussion gets even more slanted to Human if you use the Favored class suggestion of +1hp or Skill point per level).
As I said, I can see the toss up for the secret door aspect, I think it's pretty big, especially since time in a dungeon for example, is actually a big thing in my games. But Half-orc.. I don't see them worth anything compared to a human, Ferocity is IMO actually a bigger negative because: Okay, you're up, next hit you're probably dead instead of being down and out and ignored.
Again, thanks for ideas/suggestions.
Weave
I think I remember seeing somewhere a campaign setting that limited the Bonus Feat from Humans to a background/regional feat. I think it was the Wheel of Time setting book (not exactly sure).
That setting was ONLY human (well, sort of.. other than the Ogier, but they were kind of special and rarely used).
This would be a way to bring the Human's power down to a more comparable level with other races. Regional feats would still be a really nice bonus, however it cuts out the "take human to qualify for certain builds faster than any race".
And that's really the reason why you pick Human over another race, right? The skillpoint is kind of nice, although favored class now can give a skillpoint so it's not as large a bonus.
In 3e, a 1st level Human Fighter could start with combinations like these:
- Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, Weapon Finesse
- Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus
- Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes (trip monkey build)
The ability to start playing your intended concept right from level 1 is extremely powerful. This same sensation comes from achieving a Prestige Class entry cost by level 5 instead of 7, etc.
Mechanically powerful, yes... but don't underestimate the feeling of immediate gratification. Since the bonus feat is flexible, that "feeling" can be applied to virtually any build out there.
Now that Pathfinder has increased the number and frequency of feats from character levels, that bonus feat isn't quite as devastating as before... but then again, Humans now have an extra +2 to any stat, once again making them the versatile "I'm not just good, but AWESOME at any build!" race.
..
If you don't want to limit the Human bonus feat, the other option would be giving the other races a limited choice of feat towards their favored class (ie, replace the +2 penetration for Wizards with a feat choice of spell penetration, spell focus, skill focus magic related skills, etc).
Well.. that's if you feel that this is enough of an issue in your games to warrant the change.
I'd be curious to see what the current people playtesting Pathfinder was using for races, with maybe a reason why (roleplaying reasons or for a particular ability/stat/feat, etc).
In the current games I've played, only Humans have been chosen. Almost a Dwarf, for roleplaying reasons, but it would have set back the build (the stat rolls weren't good enough to warrant the negative Cha).
Though Feat and Skill of choice is of course enticing, I think you're selling the other species short.
They pretty much all have MULTIPLE abilities/bonuses that are roughly Feat (or Class Ability) equivalent (usually slightly weaker, but several of them...), and their free Language proficiency would cost a Human one of their bonus Skill Points. It feels like you're saying Feats and Skill Points are great and all-powerful, except when equivalent functionality is granted by Racial Abilities. You would have to say that Human PCs NEVER take Feats like Improved Saving Throws (Iron Will, etc), Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Skill Focus, Defensive Maneuvers, or take Ranks of Linguistics for extra Languages. A further benefit is that almost all Racial Bonuses STACK with these Feats, so you can take Defensive Maneuvers IN ADDITION to Dwarven Stability, for example, or Iron Will on top of Magic Resistance.
Take the Half-Elf. Well, if your Human PC still takes Skill Focus, what is the big difference? And I think the Half-Elf is the weakest of the Races in Beta. ...I'm not 100% certain on this, but it was mentioned somewhere on the boards that in the Final release, Half-Elves will be able to choose *2* Classes as "Favored Classes" (+1skill/HP per level), which is an obvious benefit for multi-class characters. In addition to their other benefits.
Or the Half-Orc. Their Orc Ferocity isn't *quite* as good as Die-Hard, but then again, Die-Hard also requires Endurance, adding up to *2* Feats. So if you're happy with a partial action when you drop to negative HPs (to chug a Healing potion, etc), you're actually SAVING one Feat compared to a Human Barbarian. (In this example, I do actually wish Half-Orc Ferocity was an alternate Pre-Req for the Die-Hard Feat, since spending 2 Feats to get just a slightly upgraded version of an ability you already have just seems silly. That, or improve Endurance by merging it with Toughness or something.)
...Basically, I just don't think it's as cut-and-dried as you make it out. If the balance were altered signifigantly in the other direction, it would likely end up making Demi-Humans hands-down more 'optimal' than Humans ....Which I feel they WERE in 2nd edition, within their niches. Honestly, when I played 2E, everybody thought HUMANS had no "Crunch" reason to play them. 3.x/PF seems to aim that Humans CAN compete in all areas, which is a good thing in my book, because it impels people to actually have an interesting character concept, not just wallow in their perfectly-optimized Class/Race combo.
But your players can feel free to rock out with their Human Bonus Feat & Class Skill of choice! :-)
Human: +2 to one stat, one martial weapon proficiency, one extra skill point per level, one feat
Half-Elf: +2 to one stat, low-light vision, +2 vs. enchantment effects, +2 to Perception, secret door radar sense, Skill Focus
Humans no longer gain the weapon feat. so just a +2 to one stat, 1 extra skill point and 1 feat
Why choose a race other than human?Why indeed... because if you have the vintage and fine gaming background you have outlined, you'd be aware there is more to life than stats on a page.
True. But as I stated before, my gamers are number crunching peoples in their lives, as well as in game, great RP, but number crunchers nonetheless who I've often heard the exact question I've posed. Besides dropping my friends and gamers to grab from the pool of generally unwashed masses that hang out at the local gaming store... not really an option.
On the other hand there might be a storyline totally geared around being a particular race as well.
This are most of my exceptions to the rule of them playing humans. :)
Edit - and nothing says "sneaking in the dark" tactics like a Human Ranger or Thief bashing into things they cant see. Blind-Fighting wont cut it there.
Now this, is definitely something I can be more aware of in my designs and whatnot. I do this occasionally, but not as often as I probably should. Though truth told, as they get up in levels this is not really much of an issue due to magic items, or spells or whatnot.. Still a useful tool I need to exploit more. THanks for the reminder.
I think I remember seeing somewhere a campaign setting that limited the Bonus Feat from Humans to a background/regional feat. I think it was the Wheel of Time setting book (not exactly sure).
This is something I've actually considered doing. Granted, then my fear is all my humans will be from the region with Blooded' or whatnot. :P.. but it's at least something I can work around/shuffle :)
Prestige classes getting to faster usually aren't that big of a deal (especially along the fighter route) It is a factor yes, but truth told, it's never been as big of a factor in my games. Now, Getting to that deeper Tree'd Feat faster, definitely a factor, though often the Skill points required is more of a factor than not. (which yes, is one thing being looked at/concidered/modified for conversion to Pathfinder)
The skillpoint is kind of nice, although favored class now can give a skillpoint so it's not as large a bonus.
It's a bigger bonus than it was now Kaisoku. Yes, Demi-humans can get the skill point now :).. Humans can get a Hit-point while still getting a skill point. Granted, the optional rule of Favored class is definitely on my list of things to be considered and whatnot.
Now that Pathfinder has increased the number and frequency of feats from character levels, that bonus feat isn't quite as devastating as before... but then again, Humans now have an extra +2 to any stat, once again making them the versatile "I'm not just good, but AWESOME at any build!" race.
Yeup, hence my problem
If you don't want to limit the Human bonus feat, the other option would be giving the other races a limited choice of feat towards their favored class (ie, replace the +2 penetration for Wizards with a feat choice of spell penetration, spell focus, skill focus magic related skills, etc).
Not a bad suggestion, as example, though the one benifit of this skill I've seen, is that it stacks with Penetration and greater penetration, which does matter as things go along.... the problem has always been... human still seems better, and I believe in 'virtual feats' so this is still useful without that in my games.. ie, if a pre-req for somthing is Spell Penetration this ability would count (though granted, you couldn't for example take Greater Penetration for a +4 bonus without taking the basic one first)
In the current games I've played, only Humans have been chosen. Almost a Dwarf, for roleplaying reasons, but it would have set back the build (the stat rolls weren't good enough to warrant the negative Cha).
Yeah, I know what you mean on this. :P
Once more, thanks for the comments... on to replying to the next post ;P
Weave
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Director of Game Development
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Wait! Hold on.
There are other races to play than human?
How weird. I thought you all were monsters.
*Grabs 1st Edition Monster Manual*
Seems humans were considered monsters once, too. Maybe there's hope for these other races someday...
Shush, you! Those were proto-NPCs. What are you trying to do here!?
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Shush, you! Those were proto-NPCs. What are you trying to do here!?Wait! Hold on.
There are other races to play than human?
How weird. I thought you all were monsters.
*Grabs 1st Edition Monster Manual*
Seems humans were considered monsters once, too. Maybe there's hope for these other races someday...
What I do best, of course ;)
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Ok, as to Elven Wizard: having Longsword and Longbow proficiencies really helps, especially combining Longsword proficiency with hand of the apprentice, and using a Longbow when you've run out of long-ranged spells. Dex bonus also transfers into a +1 bonus to ranged attacks and ranged touch spells and reflex saves, as well as AC. The +2 to overcome SR is awesome once you start meeting SR creatures.
To Half-Orcs: Darkvision. Sneak Attack with a freakin' Falchion. Half-Orc combat Rogues rock the hizouse. +2 Str&Wis Half-Orc Druids are wild!
Though Feat and Skill of choice is of course enticing, I think you're selling the other species short.
They pretty much all have MULTIPLE abilities/bonuses that are roughly Feat (or Class Ability) equivalent (usually slightly weaker, but several of them...), and their free Language proficiency would cost a Human one of their bonus Skill Points.
No argument, they'd spend 1 point (2 in 3.5) to get the missing language.. of course, they're not limited in their bonus languages from a high intelligence (save for special languages mind you) Humans have the option of any language, demi-humans are limited with a subset of the languages... which makes sense.. but it's not a point of brightness in favor of demi-humans having 1 free language, and a limited choice of options over the human option of any languages.
It feels like you're saying Feats and Skill Points are great and all-powerful, except when equivalent functionality is granted by Racial Abilities.
Level 1 human, 1 extra skill
Level 1 Elf, 2 extra skill points (Perception) and 2 limited skill points (lets call them 1 point since it's a fairly limited situation of appraise)Level 20 human, 20 extra skill points (or 40, or 20skill + 20hps if using Favored class optional rule)
Level 20 elf, 2 extra skill points (Perception) and 2 limited skill points (lets call them 1 point since it's a fairly limited situation of appraise)(20 Skill points or 20hps if using Favored class optional rule)
Equivalent?... yeah.
You would have to say that Human PCs NEVER take Feats like Improved Saving Throws (Iron Will, etc), Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Skill Focus, Defensive Maneuvers, or take Ranks of Linguistics for extra Languages. A further benefit is that almost all Racial Bonuses STACK with these Feats, so you can take Defensive Maneuvers IN ADDITION to Dwarven Stability, for example, or Iron Will on top of Magic Resistance.
Imp Saving Throws: Rarely, but yes taken.. of course, it's to all saving throws, not just compulsion or whatnot which races generally are.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Only ever seen the Bastard sword takenAnd truth told, only rarely and by fighters.
Linguistics: Never seen taken but once after chargen.
Skill Focus: Only if the Prestige they're planning requires (of which case I do count the racial bonus as a 'virtual feat')
Dwarves, no doubt, more viable than the other demi-humans
Take the Half-Elf. Well, if your Human PC still takes Skill Focus, what is the big difference?
Once more, never seen taken baring requirement. Not to say that makes it an invaluable choice, as you get there faster, but it doesn't outweigh the human ability in any way shape or form, or even equal it, which is all I'm looking for, overall balance between the choices of a human versus demi-human.
And I think the Half-Elf is the weakest of the Races in Beta.
I view the Half-orc as being the crappiest of the races. Ferocity is more than likely a death sentence.
I'm not 100% certain on this, but it was mentioned somewhere on the boards that in the Final release, Half-Elves will be able to choose *2* Classes as "Favored Classes" (+1skill/HP per level), which is an obvious benefit for multi-class characters. In addition to their other benefits.
Obviously I'm just going off of the Beta release and without a doubt problems that I see may not exist in the final version offering other aspects to concider.
Or the Half-Orc. Their Orc Ferocity isn't *quite* as good as Die-Hard, but then again, Die-Hard also requires Endurance, adding up to *2* Feats. ......
2 feat to get a crappy ability is still crappy especially mid or higher level play. Most of the time, it's better to be unconcious and not a target, than one hit away from being dead instead of unconcious. Yes it could be useful, as we've seen more often than not, being low on hitpoints instead of unconcious, let alone under 0 but still fighting, means you have a dead character. (Barring good healing being able to be done before the next monsters action). Though as for it being an alternate Pre-Req, I use virtual feats for this factor, some don't like them, understandable, but if class, feat, etc requires a specific feat, and you have something that grants basically the same thing, I count it as meeting the pre-reqs... once more though, not all play that way for various reasons good or bad.
...Basically, I just don't think it's as cut-and-dried as you make it out. ...
You're absolutely right, nothing is cut and dry, but, I can only go by and speak about what I've seen over the years of playing, and what I still foresee as occuring in various games of mine (and my friends who run when I'm burned out/they have a good idea/etc) And what I've seen, and foresee still occuring, barring "This is an <insert race> only campaign" which pops up now and then, it's mostly humans in my fantasy games.
Thanks for your comments :)
Weave
Actually the answer is within the question, jezz feel like Yoda. On a pure numbers issue Humans technically have a slight advantage, but that is because they are more versitle. The other races are far better at certain roles in the game, I've never seen a Dwarf Sorcerer for example, Wizard, Cleric, heck even Monk but Sorcerer no. Can one make an effective Dwarf Sorcerer I think so but your working against type and have to very smart to make racial effects be a ture advantage. Humans on the other hand fit any and every class fine because the Feat/Skill ablity lets them in effect mimic the other races advantages in any given class.
This has changed somewhat in Pathfinder for the following reasons.
1. More Feats for everyone. In fact in terms of Feats I would put the advantage on a Dwarf Fighter over a Human Fighter, yeah they get one extra feat but a Dwarf has access to Dwarf weapons that a Human would have to spend the feat on. Moreover never forget you have experince on your side, newer gamers even of the power gamer kind, take the Fighter for all those wonderful feats and waste them, or worse discover a new feat that they really really want but that they have to taken none of the requirements, thus they start a new feat tree at level 11, then go back to what they were trying to do orgionally. Feats are not as rare, but the wasting of them remains.
2. Skills skills, well the sad truth is that with fewer skills, and effectively the same amount of skill points compaired to the 3.5 system (yeah mathmatically there is a slight differnce, but not by much) the skill point advantage is only slight. And again its not the skill points but what you do with them.
All in all the things you see as advantages over the other races is really only letting Humans mimic other races niches. Probably why humans are everywhere.
TTFN Dre
I have, Slow and steady is nice the CMB is nice... they're still a movement of 20 which is a major negative... Would I, or my players, take a dwarf over a human as a fighter.. it's a cointoss
Dwarf Fighter = Dwarven War Axe(1-hand d10) + Slow & Steady(big armor w/o movement penalties)
Any small race is far under par with the possible exception of gnome, most notably for the speed
Oh gawd, please don't mention Gnomes, the Flashbacks! I did my best to remake a Forest Gnome Two-Weapon Fighter in 3.5E from 1E and it was just a miserable experience. 20 movement, small weapons, -2 STR... FORGET IT! A Human Paladin of the same level would throw 15+ damage, to my 4-7(total), that is once I actually got into combat and if there was anything still alive to attack when I got there.
Human - As someone else said, there is a lot to be said about being able to play your concept right out of the gate, which 3 feats helps a ton for Fighters. 2 Feats even works well for non-Fighters, like a Rogue.
However all BUT one of my favorite characters are non-human...
Gnome Fighter (1E *sigh*)
Wood Elf Ranger/Barbarian(2E & 3.5E)
Kobold Druid/Wizard (& Boar mount)(3.5E)
Halfling Rogue/Barbarian (3E)
Human Cleric of Hermes(2E)
It's whatever floats your boat, toots your horn, etc....
So let's indeed ignore that huge field of roleplaying called... well, roleplaying :P
Why would you play an elf?
They make good wizards: Stats will probably be about the same, but you get some extra spell penetration, protection against enchantments and some nice skill checks.
They make good rangers: Stats will be about the same as human, but they basically get free exotic weapon proficiencies with all elf weapons (and elven thinblade/elven shortblade beats longsword/shortsword any day of the week) and better perception simply rocks.
Why would you play a gnome?
They make superb sorceres: The stats are a lot better (forget about strength, you get both con and cha - which are, arguably, two of the most important stats for a sorcerer), you get a better AC, and their illusion spells rock.
Why would you play a half-orc?
They're superb druids, clerics and barbarians, not to mention fighters or rangers.
Why would you play a dwarf?
They're superb fighters and good barbarians or clerics - or druids.
That's one thing I keep forgetting, is the every other level feat in Pathfinder. you basically end up with 3 more feats than you did in 3.5, not positive if that's still worth much less than it be, definitely less yes, but feats are still king.
I don't know what to tell you; I don't usually find that one feat is enough to turn a character from zero to hero. The only folks I see that are really starving for feats are PCs who are trying to qualify for a powerful prestige class that requires a bunch of (often useless) feats.
But honestly, the skill points are something pointed out as a factor(and the discussion gets even more slanted to Human if you use the Favored class suggestion of +1hp or Skill point per level).
Skill points are nice, but in Pathfinder, everyone gets more skill points compared to 3.5. There's the favoured class skill point (as you point out), the merging of skills (e.g. the uber-skills Acrobatics and Perception), the fact that Int stat bonuses give you new skills (need a skill? pick up a headband of intellect), the fact that one point buys a +4 modifier, etc. So if you were happy with your human's skills in 3.5, your non-human gets at least as many skills in Pathfinder Beta.
But I think it's a matter of personal taste. Some people can never get enough skills and love playing rogues and rangers. That's not really my cup of tea; I'd rather play a spellcaster 9 times out of 10.
(By the way, the half-orc's selling point is Darkvision, not Ferocity, IMO.)
(By the way, the half-orc's selling point is Darkvision, not Ferocity, IMO.)
I always thought that the Half-Orc's selling point was the +2 Strength.
(By the way, the half-orc's selling point is Darkvision, not Ferocity, IMO.)I always thought that the Half-Orc's selling point was the +1 Strength.
Also, they can be cleric/assassins. Now that's old school! ;-)
We're talkin' old school! ;-)(By the way, the half-orc's selling point is Darkvision, not Ferocity, IMO.)I always thought that the Half-Orc's selling point was the +2 Strength.
No. We are talking Here and Now. As in the PathfinderRPG.
No. We are talking Here and Now. As in the PathfinderRPG.We're talkin' old school! ;-)(By the way, the half-orc's selling point is Darkvision, not Ferocity, IMO.)I always thought that the Half-Orc's selling point was the +1 Strength.
Pathfinder half-orcs get +2 Str, not +1. I thought you were talking about AD&D, but now I see that you edited your post...
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The ability to start playing your intended concept right from level 1 is extremely powerful.
And that's my big draw to humans (and the reason why I love playing superhero games). I like to play characters that are good at what they do *immediately,* not 4 hit point 1st edition wizards with AC 10 and one magic missle a day.
Humans have definitely been the mainstay since 3e came out, and I don't see Pathfinder changing that. Back in 1e and 2e, elves were the mainstay, and we had entire parties consisting of elven fighter / magic-users, magic-user / thieves and / or (once that option became available in some book or other) cleric / magic-users.
It all boils down to a flavor choice. Is it a problem if the party, like much of the implied setting, is human dominated? The implied setting, much like Greyhawk, doesn't have a ton of other race-based countries or kingdoms (do the dwarves, gnomes or halflings even have *towns?*), so it's not terribly hard to just put them even further into the background, or remove them entirely (rewriting second darkness so that the elves are replaced with some sort of Melnibonean-inspired Azlanti offshoot that have recently returned to the world after using their ancient magic to escape the Starfall would be one way to play an 'all-human Golarion').
The 'demihumans' are easy enough to phase out, minimize or equalize, depending on what 'flavor' you are looking for. Cutting out the human +2 to any stat would be one option. Changing the bonus feat to a free regional feat (perhaps using those in the Organized Play document as examples) would be another. Changing the bonus feat to a pair of extra *Traits* would be yet another. Buffing the demihuman races in some other way might also be an option, but not one I'd really encourage.
And that's my big draw to humans (and the reason why I love playing superhero games). I like to play characters that are good at what they do *immediately,* not 4 hit point 1st edition wizards with AC 10 and one magic missle a day.
Of course the downside of that can be a more limited potential for growth. This is often a big downside for Superhero (or any point based) games, as the experience increase rate tends to be very low.
D&D/Pathfinder's leveling system avoids much of that because character growth is an integral part of the system.
Very interesting conversation.
Our current Pathfinder campaign (adapted Rise of the Runelords) has only one human in it. We have Half-Orc fighter, Half-Orc Rogue, Elven Wizard, Gnome Druid, Human (Shoanti) Paladin, and Halfling Cleric.
I know when I built my character (Halfling Cleric), I looked at human, with the +1 feat, +1 Skill/lvl, and because of the faster feat progression in PF, didn't think it was overly powered compared to any other race.
I picked a halfling for flavor (you know, the Role-Playing). I made him Old, which gave bonuses to mental stats at the price of physical stats. I considered half-orc, but the party already had two, so I didn't want to make it too racially unbalanced.
I guess my question on the topic would be whether the assumption that humans are the defacto best race is based on actual play, or simply looking at the stats and saying "If I were to min-max a character, where would I start..."
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Okay, I've been playing and running DnD since Basic Set (Oh god what uber powergaming kids we were), and 3.* since it came out. I will be converting to Pathfinder when the final version is out.
What this generally entails for me is shifting and modifying my custom races and balancing them all out. But something I've noticed since 3.0 first came out, with very rare exceptions, we've had a fantasy game of humans. Why? Well, lets face it, that extra feat and the skill points is a monsterous bonus, far more in nearly every situation than any of the other racial bonuses. My question:
Why choose a race other than human?
Now, here's what I mean by it. Sure, "Well, elves are cool" or for my character background/vision... ignore those lines of thoughts. I'm talking a numbers crunching logic view... (All my gamers are mathematically inclined in their jobs/lives).Take human vs. Elven wizards: Ignore the optional Favored class rule in Pathfinder (which I like but truth told makes humans even more favorable) Epic point buy, Planned all wizard.
Human stats: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10.
Elven Stats: Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10.
Less hitpoints, 1 more armor, toss up on which is better or worse depending on your philosophy. All in all, in building stat points, they're more or less a wash across the board.Of matterable/desierable abilities:
Human: Free feat, Skilled.
Elf: Extra 2pts for penetration, Low-Light Vision(not as matterable, but more than the lesser ones IMO)Lesser materable abilities:
Most of the other benefits from the races, yes sleep is nice, bonus to compulsion nice.. not huge for a wizard as example)
Um you're saying that immunity to sleep effects is only nice? I think you're seriously underestimating that. Granted the human is one of the best races IMHO but there are decent mechanical advantages to the elf. Especially that fully rested in 4 hours bit. I've literally seen games where the elf got all their spells back but the others didn't because their sleep got inturrupted by creature attacks. I think it goes to gaming style, in some games being an elf fighter is going to be the difference between being down for rounds until someone can wake you up because they are immune it feels more mechanically significant than a game where sleep is never used by the enemies. Same thing for the auto-detect secret doors, the bonus to compulsion etc. etc. as a baseline humans are better, but that doesn't mean there's no mechanical reason to play an elf.
Orc Ferocity: Well it might be a death sentence if you continue to pounce on the enemy directly. Otherwise you could fall to the ground bleeding, snatch a healing potion on your turn, and await a bit more healing until you are ready to joine the battle once again.
If we are going into a lot of number crunching I would prefer Halfling, Elves, or Gnomes. They cancel out their racial disadvantage when being reincarnated, but retaining one of their racial bonusses (though the same could apply for a human or half-elf with a mental bonus).
Pathfinder is the New Old School!
I don't know what to tell you; I don't usually find that one feat is enough to turn a character from zero to hero.
You haven't seen the new "Zero to Hero" feat then, have you? Too bad that the prerequisites are "not human".
I always thought that the Half-Orc's selling point was the +2 Strength.
Used to be. But now, humans and half-elves can get that, too. Nowadays, the half-orc's selling point is +2 strength and wisdom combined with -2 int and a bunch of other nice things.
Um you're saying that immunity to sleep effects is only nice? I think you're seriously underestimating that.
Not with the weaksauce sleep magic we have right now.
Especially that fully rested in 4 hours bit. I've literally seen games where the elf got all their spells back but the others didn't because their sleep got inturrupted by creature attacks.
Elf wizards still need 8 hours of rest to get their spells back. You can be an elf with that ring lat cuts down your sleep to only 2 hours and you still need 8 hours of restful calm. You can be a balor wizard and still need those 8 hours.
Has been that way since 3.0, still is like that in PF Beta (page 165, Preparing Wizard Spells -> Rest)
(By the way, the half-orc's selling point is Darkvision, not Ferocity, IMO.)I always thought that the Half-Orc's selling point was the +2 Strength.
Half orcs selling point is playing a Monk or Druid....
....Humans on the other hand fit any and every class fine because the Feat/Skill ablity lets them in effect mimic the other races advantages in any given class.....More Feats for everyone....Skills...All in all the things you see as advantages over the other races is really only letting Humans mimic other races niches. Probably why humans are everywhere...
You have a variety of good insights, The issue though, for me at least, is that humans not only mimic other races niches, in almost every case, they outperform. (I'm still of the opinion that Elves, as example, make better rogues than humans) The skill change in PF is a coin-toss points wise.. if you're a class with plenty of skills, one can put a point in various skills, or at least lesser used class skills, and have effectivly 4 points in it (as viewed in 3.5 eyes) Which I like the change, however, it's still a very benificial aspect of humans. The free feat humans get is a bit more of a wash over what they were in 3.*, for reasons stated, but it's still the a bigger plus than most races.
And without a doubt, in my world (Or even FR which I mostly ran until the raped the world in 4ed so much that I can't even see running in that world now, even ignoring 4ed story :P)Humans are the most plentiful, I honestly expect to see more humans, but the gross disparity between humans and the total of demi-humans played since 3.0 has had me thinking.Dwarf Fighter = Dwarven War Axe(1-hand d10) + Slow & Steady(big armor w/o movement penalties)
Which is nice, however, since their Base Movement is a 20 to begin with, they're up to the same speed as a human with Heavy armor. But, in my experiences, most people have higher dex and wear the Chainshirt, which puts you at about the same AC (With Heavy being able to get 9 total instead of 8), but also allows you to sleep in it without becoming fatigued, making you more prepared for those pesky nighttime encounters.
Oh gawd, please don't mention Gnomes.....
Oh, agreed, I was just talking numbers games when checking out abilities granted by a race versus another's.. all in all, being small is a massive negative for anything that relies on weapons :P.
So let's indeed ignore that huge field of roleplaying called... well, roleplaying :P
*grins* Race is immaterial to roleplaying :)
They make good wizards:....good rangers:....They make good....
But in almost every situation, humans make an at least equal, and usually better choice, especially with humans getting +2 to any stat. Mind you, IMO, elves make better rogues than anything else, which isn't even their forte, racially speaking.
(By the way, the half-orc's selling point is Darkvision, not Ferocity, IMO.)
Excellent point
The 'demihumans' are easy enough to phase out, minimize or equalize....
True, and this is a factor of humans being played nearly all the time, but also, fantasy game.. not human central :P
Cutting out the human [bonus']....
These are all good suggestions as options to do, but in all honesty, I don't want to make humans... not worth playing.
Um you're saying that immunity to sleep effects is only nice?
KaeYoss summed up the answer to this one perfectly (and the only needing 4 hours sleep statement) "Not with the weaksauce sleep magic we have right now."
Once more, thanks all for the continue discussion and insights.
Weave
THAT said... a great reason to play a non-human is because of roleplaying decisions. Playing an elf or a dwarf or a gnome or a half-elf or a half-orc gives you some cool built-in roleplaying stuff to play with that the generic human lacks.
Tsk,tsk,tsk Mr Jacobs...haven't you caught on to the fact that apparently, ROLE PLAYING is no longer part of the game? NO...people want to dip into different classes for a level...people what to play the BEST character there is...Why play something that is functionally INFERIOR to the BEST combination of class/race/stats?
Most of my points have already been touched upon, but I'll include them here anyway.
So, here's where demi-humans have an advantage over human characters:
Stats: All characters have a net +2 bonus to one stat, humans and half-elves have the advantage that they can put it anywhere, but otherwise you can just take the race which gives you the bonus you really want (and some races even give you what amounts to a net bonus of +4 if their negative stat is a stat you'd use as a dump stat anyway).
Vision: In my opinion, a huge, huge advantage demi-humans have over humans. Especially the Darkvision of dwarves and half-orcs. Low-light vision essentially doubles the range of any light source. If your adventures are more dungeon based than not, as you seemed to indicate further up, this might probably be the most influential thing in the entire game.
Hit points: If you use the racial starting hit points (p. 14 in the Beta book), dwarves and half-orcs have a nice bonus, especially good for martial characters.
Detection/perception: a lot of the demi-humans receive either a bonus to detect stuff (especially dungeon stuff), the secret door radar mentioned above or just perception in general (i.e. free "skill" points).
Dwarves: Excellent martial characters. Same speed as heavy armoured humans. +2 saving throw bonus to poison and magic - huge, huge advantage for e.g. a fighter with his low will score (and good in general, since they often are the subject of spells or poison (from busting down doors etc.)).
Plusses to hit their hated enemies. AC bonus vs. giant types (e.g. ogres etc.). CMB bonus. Vision.
Elves: Excellent casters or ranged martial characters (or weapon finesse types). Elven magic and saving throw bonus to enchantment spells. Vision.
Gnomes: Excellent illusionists or non-strength based martial/rogue types. Illusion saving throw bonus. Hated enemies and AC bonus vs. giant types. Vision.
Half-Elf: Almost as versatile as a human + vision, enchantment saving throw bonus and perception bonus. More skill points at start than human.
Half-orcs: Great martial and druid/cleric characters. Orc Ferocity (note, this is an option, you don't HAVE to keep on fighting). Vision.
Halflings: Great rogue, bard or sorceror characters. Bonus to important rogue skills. Saving throw bonus (especially vs. fear - dragon fear you say? Pfah!).
Magic: All of the above is generally a factor at low to mid level. After that magic and magical items can make up for any short comings and to a large degree erase any disparity between the races (i.e. what race you are makes less of an importance). Except, of course, at those times when the PCs are stripped down to their bare backs, at which point all of the above still applies in a lot of instances (e.g. vision).
But, in my experiences, most people have higher dex and wear the Chainshirt
Really? I've seen plenty of characters in fullplate (or even heavier stuff, like the mountain plate from the PFCS), since that means you can more or less neglect dex and put the points into something else.
And with PF fighters getting a higher max dex in armour, light armour becomes primarily the choice of those who have dex as their primary attribute.
Oh, agreed, I was just talking numbers games when checking out abilities granted by a race versus another's.. all in all, being small is a massive negative for anything that relies on weapons :P.
Gnomes don't make the best fighters. But they're not supposed to. I think, though, that they make superb sorcerers and even bards. Especially if you go with some illusions, they easily outperform humans.
*grins* Race is immaterial to roleplaying :)
Not at all. Racial archetypes (call them stereotypes for all I care) and all that can colour a character's, well, character. Plus, it's fun to try to simulate an alien mindset (elves aren't just pointy-eared humans, for example)
But in almost every situation, humans make an at least equal, and usually better choice, especially with humans getting +2 to any stat.
I strongly disagree here. Sure, they're quite good at everything - there's a couple of roles they're best in, and they're rarely worse than 2nd, maybe 3rd, in line.
But there's plenty of role that other races are just betters. It's not always the same race, but my point is that there's usually a race that can do it better.
Let's see:
Even half-orcs can do the trick, again with their wisdom, and of course there's darkvision.
Ironically enough, half-orcs are better at this as well: You'll find both attribute bonuses useful and won't mind the penalty, and that alone makes one forget about some silly skill points and a feat.
I'll concede that several of these cases are a matter of opinion, but there's some very obvious ones in there, too.
Tsk,tsk,tsk Mr Jacobs...haven't you caught on to the fact that apparently, ROLE PLAYING is no longer part of the game?
Nah, they filter these guys out with 4e.
I hated 4e for a long time, but I realised that 4e is to RPGs as CounterStrike is to team-based FPS games: The filter. Just as CS gets all those who want to write using more numbers than letters ("ph34r my 1337 5cr1p7") so you can play other games in peace, 4e gets those who are in it for the "WoW Blackout Edition" experience, so we can roleplayin peace using PF
;-P
Tsk,tsk,tsk Mr Jacobs...haven't you caught on to the fact that apparently, ROLE PLAYING is no longer part of the game?Nah, they filter these guys out with 4e.
I hated 4e for a long time, but I realised that 4e is to RPGs as CounterStrike is to team-based FPS games: The filter. Just as CS gets all those who want to write using more numbers than letters ("ph34r my 1337 5cr1p7") so you can play other games in peace, 4e gets those who are in it for the "WoW Blackout Edition" experience, so we can roleplayin peace using PF
;-P
But the premise of the discussion was to disregard the character background and focus on dice-crunching.
So let's not waste time on such inferior concerns as roleplaying! ;-)
THAT said... a great reason to play a non-human is because of roleplaying decisions. Playing an elf or a dwarf or a gnome or a half-elf or a half-orc gives you some cool built-in roleplaying stuff to play with that the generic human lacks.Tsk,tsk,tsk Mr Jacobs...haven't you caught on to the fact that apparently, ROLE PLAYING is no longer part of the game? NO...people want to dip into different classes for a level...people what to play the BEST character there is...Why play something that is functionally INFERIOR to the BEST combination of class/race/stats?
*grins* Race is immaterial to roleplaying :)Not at all. Racial archetypes (call them stereotypes for all I care) and all that can colour a character's, well, character. Plus, it's fun to try to simulate an alien mindset (elves aren't just pointy-eared humans, for example)
But the premise of the discussion was to disregard the character background and focus on dice-crunching.
So let's not waste time on such inferior concerns as roleplaying! ;-)
Precisely.. RP has nothing to do with a game's mechanics/balance/whatever. A good RPer will RP a great <insert class/race/devote follower of the flying speghitti monster> and a lousy one, will make you want to stick an icepick through their or your skull. Has nothing to do with numbers, which I'm sorry, dice games come down to. It's akin to saying it's a great idea in a game to play a fighter with a 9 str, or a wizard with only a 13 int or whatnot(not so much the issue nowadays, but once upon a time, 1ed as example, was a major issue.) You can have a great concept, have a fun character, and more than likely you're ruining the fun of others with a character who is worthless in any situation outside of the local watering hole. Unless the whole game is centered around said watering hole where you never do anything but RP sessions, in which case, the system (PF, 3.5, 4E, Amber, Pendragon, etc, etc, etc) is irrelevant.
Hence, my statement at the start of this thread.
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It's akin to saying it's a great idea in a game to play a fighter with a 9 str, or a wizard with only a 13 int or whatnot(not so much the issue nowadays, but once upon a time, 1ed as example, was a major issue.)
Of course, the difference is a Huge Ancient Red Dragon (almost the biggest, baddest thing in the game) only had 88 h.p and a -1 a.c. (the equivalent of a 21 a.c. now) in 1e, so the "issue" you speak of was only an "issue" to proto-munchkins...
It's akin to saying it's a great idea in a game to play a fighter with a 9 str, or a wizard with only a 13 int or whatnot(not so much the issue nowadays, but once upon a time, 1ed as example, was a major issue.)Of course, the difference is a Huge Ancient Red Dragon (almost the biggest, baddest thing in the game) only had 88 h.p and a -1 a.c. (the equivalent of a 21 a.c. now) in 1e, so the "issue" you speak of was only an "issue" to proto-munchkins...
I should have explained this a tad better, in 3.* you can add to stats as you level up (Not to mention getting a bonus at 12 now), couldn't really in 1ed. Damage dealt was less from a players perspective, and precisely for the reason you showed, the monsters armor and HP's were significantly lower as well, though Gods, the Solar from MM2 was beyond scary. :P
Weave
Shush, you! Those were proto-NPCs. What are you trying to do here!?Wait! Hold on.
There are other races to play than human?
How weird. I thought you all were monsters.
*Grabs 1st Edition Monster Manual*
Seems humans were considered monsters once, too. Maybe there's hope for these other races someday...
*Grabs 4th Edition Monster Manual*
Looks like humans are becoming monsters all over again (post-NPC "mooks"?) ... if you want to, you know, /go there/.
Seriously, though - however bad things are for nonhumans in PFRPG, it's gotta be better than the ODD halfling. I mean d6 hit die, level limit EIGHT, ... and not much else.
It's akin to saying it's a great idea in a game to play a fighter with a 9 str, or a wizard with only a 13 int or whatnot(not so much the issue nowadays, but once upon a time, 1ed as example, was a major issue.) You can have a great concept, have a fun character, and more than likely you're ruining the fun of others with a character who is worthless in any situation outside of the local watering hole.
Well then thats the way it goes. My fun isn't 'ruined' or lessened because the other player in my party isn't a rules lawyering min/maxer.
Imaging if life was like an RPG, you'd brush your friend off because he was a sporty type - but wasn't Jock of the Year. Your smart friends weren't maxxed out in Exams101.
Some of my RL buddies have a RL low CHA stat and have a hard time pulling chicks at the local bar, do I ditch them? are they ruininating the evening for the rest of us because they can't pull the girls as fast? should we dump them at the bowling alley? NO - we take em along and all have fun anyway.
RPG's will have a few similarities to RL.
Precisely.. RP has nothing to do with a game's mechanics/balance/whatever. A good RPer will RP a great <insert class/race/devote follower of the flying speghitti monster> and a lousy one, will make you want to stick an icepick through their or your skull. Has nothing to do with numbers, which I'm sorry, dice games come down to. It's akin to saying it's a great idea in a game to play a fighter with a 9 str, or a wizard with only a 13 int or whatnot(not so much the issue nowadays, but once upon a time, 1ed as example, was a major issue.) You can have a great concept, have a fun character, and more than likely you're ruining the fun of others with a character who is worthless in any situation outside of the local watering hole. Unless the whole game is centered around said watering hole where you never do anything but RP sessions, in which case, the system (PF, 3.5, 4E, Amber, Pendragon, etc, etc, etc) is irrelevant.
Hence, my statement at the start of this thread.
While I agree on taking the discussion on a game mechanical premise, I have to strongly disagree that chracters who suck at something the could be masters at, ruins the fun of the rest of the group. The games doesn't only come down to numbers, if it does I personally tend to think that it gets very dull. In fact, one of the funniest pathfinder games I've played was a party of more or less retarded villagers. The GM has to change the level of challanges, and the game doesn't get as epic as it could. But it can still be fantasy with dungeon crawl and the work.
Apart from that, discussing the numbers, I think there has been severel points made already, why non-humans have some very real advantages.
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Some of my RL buddies have a RL low CHA stat and have a hard time pulling chicks at the local bar, do I ditch them? are they ruininating the evening for the rest of us because they can't pull the girls as fast? should we dump them at the bowling alley? NO - we take em along and all have fun anyway.
I must be a bad person.
We "dropped them off at the bowling alley", metaphorically speaking, as in "didn't even call them if we were on the prowl". Of course, I actually enjoyed the company of the fairer sex (as in, that was the "fun" of going to the club for me), so having my socially maladjusted and inappropriate buddy with me would have just meant neither of us chatting up a nice young lady, so...
But I totally agree as far as RPGs go.
It's akin to saying it's a great idea in a game to play a fighter with a 9 str, or a wizard with only a 13 int or whatnot(not so much the issue nowadays, but once upon a time, 1ed as example, was a major issue.) You can have a great concept, have a fun character, and more than likely you're ruining the fun of others with a character who is worthless in any situation outside of the local watering hole.Well then thats the way it goes. My fun isn't 'ruined' or lessened because the other player in my party isn't a rules lawyering min/maxer.
Imaging if life was like an RPG, you'd brush your friend off because he was a sporty type - but wasn't Jock of the Year. Your smart friends weren't maxxed out in Exams101.
Some of my RL buddies have a RL low CHA stat and have a hard time pulling chicks at the local bar, do I ditch them? are they ruininating the evening for the rest of us because they can't pull the girls as fast? should we dump them at the bowling alley? NO - we take em along and all have fun anyway.
RPG's will have a few similarities to RL.
Excellent point, of course, friend or no friend, many sit the bench in friendly sports games as being worthless... I myself am glad to not be dragged into anything other than sidelines of <insert any sports> games, but other friends, get upset about not being asked to join in the actual game... they're still not brought in for being worthless, but we have no problem sitting around in a bar BSing and having a good time all night.... we just don't bring them out of the watering hole and onto the 'field of battle' :P
Weave
Apart from that, discussing the numbers, I think there has been severel points made already, why non-humans have some very real advantages.
True, I'm still of the view that the humans stat bonus exceeds the demi-humans 2 bonuses with 1 minus, in most situations. One thing after this thread I know I can increase with a small modificaiton is in utilizing the illumination rules better, negating 'glowy' weapons or flaming to where they only spark/burst/freeze upon impact and therefore do not shed off light, will make the Low-light and Darkvision far more useful because more than likely fighters will get into shadowy illumination places more frequently.
Weave
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Just as a few notes since I didn't see it mentioned anywhere...
Dwarf: The "Slow and Steady" racial ability makes it so that heavy armor never affects your speed. That means that a dwarf under a haste spell moves at 50 (20+30) feet, unlike his human friend who would move at 40 ((30+30)*.6666666) feet. It also means that he runs at four times movement, not three times (in that situation above a dwarf would run 200 feet in one round... in heavy armor, whereas the human would run at 120 feet, that's a big difference when running away).
Half-orc: If you want to look at it, orc-ferocity is equal to dumbed down Diehard feat (1/2 a feat?), 2 martial weapon proficiency feats (technically 2 feats, but could be useless), as well as a "few" exotic weapon proficiency feats (depends on how many orc weapons are available and is useless without martial weapon proficiency). A cleric wielding a Greataxe or Falchion can make a big difference, especially if it were a melee oriented cleric (which a half-orc probably would be).
I think in the end Human is the Best/equal choice for alot of classes and builds, but each demi-human race has it's own niches that do make it equal to or better than the human. Just as a few examples:
War cleric: Half-orc
Monk: Dwarf (higher con/wis, gets a speed bonus, counts as medium, and gets a ton of useful abilities)
Rogue: Elf
Bard: Gnome/Elf
Paladin: Half-Orc (no CHA penalty anymore, bonus to str (sadly no bonus to cha), but you get ferocity which could easily save your life, and for a TWF build you get a free GOOD weapon, darkvision)
I think the most useful part of being human is that it's never a bad choice. You always will get something relevant for your class by taking human, but it could be a bad choice to take certain demi-human races for certain builds. Also as a final note, the best part of being human is the bonus feat, and the usefulness of this wholly depends on the availability of books. If you're only playing a core (whether it is PHB or PFRPG) you're going to "run out" of feats to take for most builds; and that seriously decreases the usefulness of that bonus feat.