Idiot's Guide to 4E


4th Edition

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Galdor the Great wrote:
a question
Scott Betts wrote:
an answer

Thanks Scott!!


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Okay this is the first time our group has failed to come up with a consensus on how the 4th edition rules are supposed to be. "The forum gurus" are going to be the casting vote....

We have a rogue with a feat allowing him to move further than usual while "stealthing" and who likes to:
1. hide down a corridor.
2. Shuffle up to the entrance of a room
3. Shoot the bad guys
4. then next round duck back into the corridor where he gets total concealment/cover and hide again ready to repeat the process - each round getting to make a sneak attack if his opponent doesnt beat his stealth in an opposed check.

His reading of the rules is that it doesnt matter that the bad guys know he's down the corridor, they dont know when he's going to peer out and shoot. The alternative view being it's silly for anyone to fall for that twice.

Another related query we have is whether, in performing this series of actions, he has to enter the room or whether he can do it from the last square in the corridor and whether this has any bearing on the success/otherwise of sneaking and or the granting/denying of cover. (Imagine a twenty by twenty square room with a two square wide corridor entranceway). Essentially, if his stealth beats the opponent, can he enter the room without being seen, or does the stealth fail as soon as he is in plain sight (midway through one of his actions).

Hopefully that paints a clear enough picture of where our confusion lies. Any comments on stealth/sneak attacking/repeated sneaking/cover/etcetera would be appreciated - we've found the relevant rules (I think - if it's clearly spelt out somewhere, please let me know) but disagree on their interpretation.

Cheers


His interpretation is basically how it works, though it does require things to be just right. He has to leave their line of sight completely to be able to make a stealth check (it requires full concealment or full cover). Once he has that, he has to move to a position from which he can attack while still retaining partial concealment or cover - so once hidden, he can creep up to the entrance and snipe around the corner, but if he enters the room fully, he is no longer hidden.

So, mechanically, it isn't really broken - rogues are largely built around being assumed to be able to get combat advantage, and there are enough things he needs to have in place (multiple move actions, winning the stealth check, having the corner to break line of sight) that it isn't abusive to be able to get combat advantage in this fashion.

And, honestly, I don't think it is unrealistic when you actually consider what is happening. The enemy sees a rogue pop up, and shoot them, and then duck away. And then... they know he ran down the corridor, sure, but that was followed by dead silence. They know he's there, but they can't see anything, they are expecting a bolt at any second... and then bam! A crossbow is fired, and they see his outline around the corner, but by that point the attack has already been made.

If he has the skill to be stealthy, it buys him that one moment of combat advantage - seems pretty reasonable to me, especially if they are already in the midst of combat. And if not, they can just walk up to the corridor and have line of sight to him, and his hiding vanishes entirely.


Also, as far as the second question goes: If your rogue has hidden out of sight, he is no longer hiding at the end of any action that places him in the room without having cover or concealment from his enemies.

That means he cannot take a move action to walk into the room and then shoot from hiding, because as soon as the move action is over, he is no longer hidden. But he could use the rogue power Deft Strike, which lets him move 2 squares and take an attack as part of one action. He gets to complete the entire action, and then is no longer hidden.


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Matthew Koelbl wrote:

Also, as far as the second question goes: If your rogue has hidden out of sight, he is no longer hiding at the end of any action that places him in the room without having cover or concealment from his enemies.

That means he cannot take a move action to walk into the room and then shoot from hiding, because as soon as the move action is over, he is no longer hidden. But he could use the rogue power Deft Strike, which lets him move 2 squares and take an attack as part of one action. He gets to complete the entire action, and then is no longer hidden.

Cheers - I'm pretty sure he has used deft strike to do exactly that (when an opponent was hiding right in the corner of the room and couldnt really be seen from the corridor).

Does it mean that he can sneak across a small room and, provided he ends his move behind some crates or something else granting him cover/concealment, maintain his stealth?


I think his tactics are fine, but the dm needs to respond to them in a reasonable way. If the hall is narrow and the room is only 20 by 20. I'd give any baddies a big bonus to their perception checks for his second attempt. Pulling the same thing off twice should be much tougher. Even stupid enemies with low perception are going to react. They should be readying actions and watching the hall closely. That should give them a big bonus to their perception and the narrow hallway should give them additional bonuses since the rogue has fewer places to hide. Furthermore concealment doesn't make the rogue invisible it just gives attackers a penalty to hit and can grant him combat advantage.

Steve Geddes wrote:
Matthew Koelbl wrote:

Also, as far as the second question goes: If your rogue has hidden out of sight, he is no longer hiding at the end of any action that places him in the room without having cover or concealment from his enemies.

That means he cannot take a move action to walk into the room and then shoot from hiding, because as soon as the move action is over, he is no longer hidden. But he could use the rogue power Deft Strike, which lets him move 2 squares and take an attack as part of one action. He gets to complete the entire action, and then is no longer hidden.

Cheers - I'm pretty sure he has used deft strike to do exactly that (when an opponent was hiding right in the corner of the room and couldnt really be seen from the corridor).

Does it mean that he can sneak across a small room and, provided he ends his move behind some crates or something else granting him cover/concealment, maintain his stealth?


P.H. Dungeon wrote:
I think his tactics are fine, but the dm needs to respond to them in a reasonable way. If the hall is narrow and the room is only 20 by 20. I'd give any baddies a big bonus to their perception checks for his second attempt. Pulling the same thing off twice should be much tougher. Even stupid enemies with low perception are going to react. They should be readying actions and watching the hall closely. That should give them a big bonus to their perception and the narrow hallway should give them additional bonuses since the rogue has fewer places to hide. Furthermore concealment doesn't make the rogue invisible it just gives attackers a penalty to hit and can grant him combat advantage.

The rules already largely take this into account - keep in mind that if you have a small room and a direct corridor into it, the enemies have several places where running into the hallway won't break line of sight and he won't be able to hide at all. In order for this to work at all, he has to get completely out of sight, which is what keeps this from being abuseable.

Steve Geddes wrote:
Does it mean that he can sneak across a small room and, provided he ends his move behind some crates or something else granting him cover/concealment, maintain his stealth?

I believe the answer is no for this. Basically, if at any point during an action, that action causing him to no longer remain hidden (such as by attacking, leaving cover/concealment/etc), at the end of that action he is no longer hidden.

However, I believe there are a couple Rogue Utility Powers that specifically would allow a character to do what you are describing, so a Rogue can bypass some of the normal limitations with Stealth depending on what powers they have chosen.


1. Since Magic Missile [PHB1 p. 159] counts as a ranged basic attack, would a wizard wearing Bracers of the Perfect Shot [PHB1 p.244] get the +2 to damage every time he cast Magic Missile or only when he casts Magic Missile as a result of a power that allows him to make a ranged basic attack?

2. Are there any mechanical advantages specific to the wizard class for having a high dexterity or widsom other than those listed below?

- DEX: bonus to Wand of Accuracy
- WIS: bonus to Ord of Imposition and push distance for Thunderwave

3. If a Deva uses the Radiant Power feat [PHB2 p.188], does the power acquire the Radiant keyword for purposes of damage resistance & vulnerability? If so, would a foe's Radiant resistance work only against the +2 radiant damage granted by the Radiant Power feat or against the total amount of damage caused by the power used?

Thank you.


Galdor the Great wrote:
1. Since Magic Missile [PHB1 p. 159] counts as a ranged basic attack, would a wizard wearing Bracers of the Perfect Shot [PHB1 p.244] get the +2 to damage every time he cast Magic Missile or only when he casts Magic Missile as a result of a power that allows him to make a ranged basic attack?

He would receive the bonus each time he uses Magic Missile as a ranged attack.


Galdor the Great wrote:

2. Are there any mechanical advantages specific to the wizard class for having a high dexterity or widsom other than those listed below?

- DEX: bonus to Wand of Accuracy
- WIS: bonus to Ord of Imposition and push distance for Thunderwave

3. If a Deva uses the Radiant Power feat [PHB2 p.188], does the power acquire the Radiant keyword for purposes of damage resistance & vulnerability? If so, would a foe's Radiant resistance work only against the +2 radiant damage granted by the Radiant Power feat or against the total amount of damage caused by the power used?

Thank you.

2. Off the top of my head: None really, if you want to really delve down to Wizard-specific benefits. There may be a Wizard feat or two that has a Dex or Wis prereq, but the class itself largely doesn't use those scores.

More generally, of course, Dex affects your Init and many skills, while Wis gives Will defense and, again, many skills. On top of that, lots of feats will feature one or both as prereqs; not all will be feats Wizards are interested in, but at least some are.

3. Firstly, Resistance and Vulnerability key of damage types, not keywords, so whether or not the Radiant keyword is added by the feat is tangential to the question; a creature with Radiant Resistance/Vulnerability is always affected if the damage is typed as Radiant.

As to the second part, the rules don't really support the concept of "X blah damage and Y bleh damage"; by default damage is generally considered to have ALL of the types of its constituent parts. Notice that a creature can only utilize its Resistance if it is Resistant to ALL of the damage types a source of damage possesses.

Thus, any applicable Radiant Resistance would apply to all of the damage from the attack, not just the bonus Radiant damage provided by the feat. It seems like a bum deal, but unless you are turning otherwise untyped attacks into Radiant attacks and then using them on Radiant Resistant creatures, you should never actually make your attack more Resistible.


David Marks wrote:
As to the second part, the rules don't really support the concept of "X blah damage and Y bleh damage"; by default damage is generally considered to have ALL of the types of its constituent parts. Notice that a creature can only utilize its Resistance if it is Resistant to ALL of the damage types a source of damage possesses.

I'm not actually sure on this point. Some attacks deal combined damage types; drawing an example from the book I have in front of me (the FR player's guide), the level 5 Spellscarred Power Blurring Blade deals fire And necrotic damage. In this case, as you mention, a creature would have to resist both damage types to reduce the damage.

However, adding a certain amount of typed damage to an attack does not make the rest of the damage an attack deals automatically that type. So note the level 9 Spellscarred Power Venomous Bloodfang which deals 1W + Strength modifier damage, plus 2d6 necrotic damage. If the player rolled 12 normal damage and 4 necrotic damage, a creature with Resist Necrotic 5 would ignore the 4 points of Necrotic, but take the full amount of the rest of the attack.

I believe Radiant Power would work exactly the same - a creature would resist the bonus radiant damage, but this wouldn't extend to the normal untyped damage dealt by the attack. The same would go for other feats that attack lightning or fire damage to an attack (Genasi get some of those), or when activating a Frost Longsword to do an extra 1d8 cold damage, or in many other situations.

Note, however, that some feats or powers will change the entire damage type (such as the Power of Poison Domain Feat) in which case Resistance would apply to all the damage; or some will add a new damage type to the existing one (as with Arcane Admixture), in which case a creature would need Resistance to all damage types, as David mentions above.

Usually the feat will say one way or another, and you can go from there to determine how it interacts with resistance.


David Marks wrote:

As to the second part, the rules don't really support the concept of "X blah damage and Y bleh damage"; by default damage is generally considered to have ALL of the types of its constituent parts. Notice that a creature can only utilize its Resistance if it is Resistant to ALL of the damage types a source of damage possesses.

Thus, any applicable Radiant Resistance would apply to all of the damage from the attack, not just the bonus Radiant damage provided by the feat. It seems like a bum deal, but unless you are turning otherwise untyped attacks into Radiant attacks and then using them on Radiant Resistant creatures, you should never...

This isn't correct, as far as I'm aware. It's very possible for an attack to deal a certain amount of one damage type and a certain amount of another damage type. Adding a finite amount of typed damage to an attack doesn't mean that all damage from the attack is considered to have that type.

The part about needing all resistances to a given source of damage to resist any of it is correct, though.


Hrms. I'm not 100% convinced, but the points you guys bring up is why my post originally hedged my bets and said the area was somewhat murky.

Frex, the power you reference says:

Venomous Bloodfang wrote:
Hit: 1[W] + Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution damage + 2d6 necrotic damage. You regain hit points equal to twice the necrotic damage you dealt.

It would seem like all of the damage is necrotic, although the second line explicitly calling out the necrotic damage seems weirdly worded in that case ...

More generally, I *think* the errata that changed Vulnerability/Resistance to how they currently work with re: to greater than one damage type also changed how powers with more than one damage type worked. I'll try to look it up when I get home ...

I fully admit I could be wrong though! So maybe you shouldn't listen to the bug headed guy. :P


David Marks wrote:

Hrms. I'm not 100% convinced, but the points you guys bring up is why my post originally hedged my bets and said the area was somewhat murky.

Frex, the power you reference says:

Venomous Bloodfang wrote:
Hit: 1[W] + Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution damage + 2d6 necrotic damage. You regain hit points equal to twice the necrotic damage you dealt.
It would seem like all of the damage is necrotic, although the second line explicitly calling out the necrotic damage seems weirdly worded in that case ...

I'll try to do some more general research on this tomorrow, but note the power itself definitely has the necrotic damage seperate from the untyped damage. If it didn't have the first instance of the word 'damage', I'd agree that it was all necrotic, but by calling them out as two seperate types of damage, it seems clear the first part is not necrotic. (Otherwise it would read: "1[W] + Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution + 2d6 necrotic damage")

But yeah, definitely a tricky area of the rules, made even less clear by errata and different explanations for it showing up in different books.


My Friday group is just starting to play 4E, so forgive me if some of these questions sound n00bish.

On page 221 of the Player's Handbook, under the arcane implements description, it states that using a nonmagical implement confers no benefit. However, other than the wizard class, it doesn't seem as if nonmagical implements confer any ability upon their wielders. Also, other than the wizard class, characters don't appear to need nonmagical implements to use any of their powers, so my question is, why are they there?

Under the half-elf description it states that you can take feats that have either elf or human as a prerequisite (as well as those specifically for half elves), as long as you meet any other requirements. With the feat Elven Precision, is the racial ability, elven accuracy, considered a requirement for the feat, or do you automatically gain the racial ability by taking the feat?

When creating magic items do you add the base price of the weapon to the price of the magic enhancement? In other words, if you have a +1 longsword, does it cost 360 gp (the price of the enhancement) or 375 gp (the price of the weapon + the price of the enhancement)?

Can you wield an implement in your shield hand, or is it considered a weapon?

That's all I can think of right now.


DoveArrow wrote:

On page 221 of the Player's Handbook, under the arcane implements description, it states that using a nonmagical implement confers no benefit. However, other than the wizard class, it doesn't seem as if nonmagical implements confer any ability upon their wielders. Also, other than the wizard class, characters don't appear to need nonmagical implements to use any of their powers, so my question is, why are they there?

Not to sure, probably for completionism.

DoveArrow wrote:

Under the half-elf description it states that you can take feats that have either elf or human as a prerequisite (as well as those specifically for half elves), as long as you meet any other requirements. With the feat Elven Precision, is the racial ability, elven accuracy, considered a requirement for the feat, or do you automatically gain the racial ability by taking the feat?

Elven accuracy is a requirement of the feat so you cant take the feat unless you have it.

DoveArrow wrote:


When creating magic items do you add the base price of the weapon to the price of the magic enhancement? In other words, if you have a +1 longsword, does it cost 360 gp (the price of the enhancement) or 375 gp (the price of the weapon + the price of the enhancement)?

I beleive its just 360gp.

DoveArrow wrote:


Can you wield an implement in your shield hand, or is it considered a weapon?

You can weild an implement in your "offhand". Some classes however (namely clerics and Paladins) Dont have to wield there implements to get benefits from them, they just have to have them (around there neck or something)


Doesn't a wizard need an implement to use their implement power like "wand of accuracy"? So unless they have one, even a non magic one, they can't use that class feature. I don't have my books where I am right now, so I'm not sure if I'm right about this.


P.H. Dungeon wrote:
Doesn't a wizard need an implement to use their implement power like "wand of accuracy"? So unless they have one, even a non magic one, they can't use that class feature. I don't have my books where I am right now, so I'm not sure if I'm right about this.

Yep.

Grand Lodge

Ok this may sound Odd but i don't have my 4th PHB with me and i was trying to get one of my other players to join a game with the rest of the group, Now she being (in her own view) one of the Elite upper crust players(she has a Old wood grain rules character, a 1st,2nd, basic and 3rd,) she was Upset over the Builds presented for each class saying that just two-three builds per class wasn't customization as it was just a Limiting factor designed to NERF everything except fighters because fighter players moaned...now then she found the Multi class section and went in to a uproar saying D&D Murdered her character. Now i tried to tell her that the Builds in every section said Recommended that she didn't have to take those powers exactly as they told you too for one of the builds but customize it to make it your own and she claims the rules don't allow that, Plus she doesn't like having to take feats to multi-class

Who is right?

And just to give you a idea her OD&D character and the same one she has used in all Editions is a HUMAN Fighter/Cleric/Magic User/Thief(rouge)
Which alone caused uproar in our games over balance issues certainly when she refused to roll less than 6d6 and drop the single lowest Ever try to do a Game and watch you DM turn white as every one else has at most 1 stat that's an 18 and this other character has for his lowest stat 23?

And Also are there any ideas to bring the hammer down on this MAJOR rule crushing power gamer? (who quotes the open guidelines thing from 3rd and 4th as equal for all systems as that's how it is...)(look at the preface Gygax did in the first ed phb or dmg and then in dragon number 71 or 75.. some where in those mags he says quote "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Has a Strict and precise Structured Rules set that must be followed to the LETTER or else a possible Collapse of the Cohesiveness of the rules could ensue so quite simply put either you play D&D or your not playing it."

So please Some one Help?


Nick Trotti 87 wrote:

Ok this may sound Odd but i don't have my 4th PHB with me and i was trying to get one of my other players to join a game with the rest of the group, Now she being (in her own view) one of the Elite upper crust players(she has a Old wood grain rules character, a 1st,2nd, basic and 3rd,) she was Upset over the Builds presented for each class saying that just two-three builds per class wasn't customization as it was just a Limiting factor designed to NERF everything except fighters because fighter players moaned...now then she found the Multi class section and went in to a uproar saying D&D Murdered her character. Now i tried to tell her that the Builds in every section said Recommended that she didn't have to take those powers exactly as they told you too for one of the builds but customize it to make it your own and she claims the rules don't allow that, Plus she doesn't like having to take feats to multi-class

Who is right?

Not her.

Her attitude is the main problem here.

We enjoy a hobby where we grown adults sit around a dinner table pretending to be magical elves. There is no room for elitism in this hobby.

Discuss this attitude with her, and explain that the way she is handling herself is at odds with your desire to enjoy the game. If she refuses to act appropriately, remove her from your game.

And, honestly, that's me advising an extremely tolerant approach to the situation. If I so much as heard of a player behaving in such a way in real life, that person would never come near any of my games.

It sounds like she exhibits some incredible entitlement and elitism (and probably a bad case of Mary Sue-itis) - some of the worst shared qualities of much of the gaming community.

I'm relatively sure that she won't voluntarily change, so inevitably you'll be faced with the opportunity to kick her from your game. Take it. Make sure she knows why, and make sure that (if you can manage it) other players in your game voice their agreement with your decision, and reinforce the inappropriateness of her behavior. It's unfortunate that the gaming community is such that she will probably find another game without much difficulty where the DM is willing to tolerate her for whatever reason (and even more unfortunate that there's a good chance the reason might end up being her gender) but at least your game will no longer be part of the problem.

Good luck.


None of those editions (except 3rd) allowed that character. That all sounds so odd.

She's wrong by the way, and you're right, regarding the 4E build suggestions.


The 4e build recommendations are a serving suggestion and no more than that.

Those serving suggestions are extremely useful as a first build as you can put them into the relevant slots, play them a bit and then swap them out as you try them.

Partly that's useful to entirely new players, but even as an old hand, it's not a bad way to start the build on a race/class you've never played before. The recommendations give you a reliably workable base, but there's no compulsion anywhere to use them.


Is she hot?

Grand Lodge

in honest view she is not Hot she actually looks like a guy in drag but she is a lady its kinda weird and i have decided to boot her from the game just because she decided to start making the comments to my other players like "oh you mean your throwing a wiffle missile?" then said we were playing descent on steroids to calling me a Nerf herder because of the nerfed characters after 20 minutes of it had no choice but to throw her out while we watched her play havoc on the other tables at our local store

and as for gender issue there hasn't been gender problems before our group has my self,my Gf,Chris,his GF,Rob,His wife and my little sister.
and NO one has had complaints about sex being a distraction to the point the young ladies who do come to the store to want to play join our game because we have "others like them" to quote the one girl.

OK another question as well Chris pointed out he wanted to use one of the Custom Classes he saw here online.the Dark Knight or something and i was wondering if some one could gimme a idea of how that one worked since Chris him self hasn't had a chance to print me off a copy.

And Stacie wanted to know if its possible for us to reinstall the old 9 alignments since hers is no longer there?


She definitely had to go. She sounds like a total whack job. Of course this may be one of the disadvantages of trying to run a game at a game store. It's better to get a good group together and play somewhere where you won't have all kinds of weirdos coming by and wanting to join in.

Grand Lodge

Normally our Friday and Saturday night games take place at either Chris's house our mine we trade off hosting as we trade off DM duties. and oddly enough My GF brought the terror to my group from her work place. but every other Wednesday and every Sunday at noon till 3 (we are on our break for 30 minutes cause our game is gonna end up going past 5 since most of us have tomorrow off) we are at the mall at the request of our boss (well Chris's boss and mine)to host D&D games while at the Store.


Nick Trotti 87 wrote:
OK another question as well Chris pointed out he wanted to use one of the Custom Classes he saw here online.the Dark Knight or something and i was wondering if some one could gimme a idea of how that one worked since Chris him self hasn't had a chance to print me off a copy.

I don't know what this is. You'll have to come up with a source for it. I've never heard of "Custom Classes" or anything like that. I suspect it might be some homebrew class someone decided to make up and post online somewhere. If that's the case, I'd exercise a lot of caution before allowing him to use it. Most people are terrible at designing new rules elements.

Quote:

And Stacie wanted to know if its possible for us to reinstall the old 9 alignments since hers is no longer there?

Hers is there; it's just been renamed.

Tell her to pick the alignment that currently best describes her character. Alignments are descriptive, not prescriptive. And, in all honesty, they are pretty mechanically unimportant in 4th Edition. If you feel like using the old alignment system is the way to go, that's fine. It won't affect the game. But it strikes me as unnecessary.

Glad to hear you got rid of the crazy girl. I hope she takes a lesson from this experience, but I know that she probably will not.

Grand Lodge

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13110320/DD-4E-Black-Knight-Class

Thats the class he wants to do. now the Theme behind it seems interesting but rather oddly enough its some how feels off like its over powered or under powered i can't put the finger on it


Nick Trotti 87 wrote:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13110320/DD-4E-Black-Knight-Class

Thats the class he wants to do. now the Theme behind it seems interesting but rather oddly enough its some how feels off like its over powered or under powered i can't put the finger on it

I haven't gotten the chance to examine the powers associated with the class, but the Blackguard paragon path alone is very, very powerful. Receiving a bonus to saves equal to an ability modifier can essentially ensure that the character never fails saves again. This sort of thing is a real balance oversight, and causes me to question the design of the entire class.


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Can someone clarify for me how Rain of Steel (I think?) works? I may have the name wrong, but it's a fifth level daily fighter attack power from the Player's Handbook. As I read it, it's a stance which basically automatically damages any creature which begins its turn adjacent to you. It makes it sound like a no-fail minion killer, plus doing a small but constant amount of damage to any other adjacent enemies.

I'm presuming I'm reading it wrong, because it seems like it's much more powerful than other fifth level daily powers. Nonetheless, it seems pretty unequivocal. Any explanation/opinion would be appreciated.


Nick Trotti 87 wrote:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13110320/DD-4E-Black-Knight-Class

Thats the class he wants to do. now the Theme behind it seems interesting but rather oddly enough its some how feels off like its over powered or under powered i can't put the finger on it

It's actually both. Just looking at the first few levels, the 1st-level at-will implement powers are terrible, while with a 3rd level encounter power and cold specialization, you can stun a target. Some of the levels feature powers that are clearly better than another (see cleaving blow vs. blade of bood), and there are plenty of errors in the powers.

The worst part is that as a defender, the black knight actually has no way to do its job and any squishies in your group are going to feel the pain. The class is actually more of a melange of a controller and striker, with defender hit points and defenses.

I would not allow this class into my games

Grand Lodge

Alright Suggestion Noted about the class and I will attempt a revision of it and would Love help/Suggestions to deal with making it more balanced.

Also Chris brought up the idea of turning it in to a Martial Controller

As for the Question about Rain of Steel

it does read and sound as though thats what it does, assuming that the Fighter is capable of Dealing the Opportunity attack against what ever nears him and actually starts its turn there.

But with how much a Defender is going to have to move to defend the Squishy it seems unlikely he is going to be in a spot to get a opportunity attack against a target unless he works out a plan with another character to bait the poor sap. that's how i would do it. course i play a Deva Invoker.

When compared to either Crack the shell or dizzying blow which do a large amount of damage it does seem that Rain of steel would be better in the long run as it would keep doing the damage EXCEPT that the conditions it needs to trigger the weapon damage must be met..thats a bit chancy to take honestly if i had a character i could trust to bait the enemy to pull him in to a area or push him even then i could see that being useful but at first glance i would have to take Crack the shell. i would rather put the hurt on something and make sure it feels the pain then deal nuisance damage to it. but then that depends on your play style i used to run a Avenger a Warlock and a Rouge so i like the aspect of dealing large amounts of Damage to a Single target and make him feel the burn so to speak.

But a idea i thought of is also are you attempting to fill a secondary role with your fighter? Chris the player who wants to make a new Character due to his rather Sad and Gruesome death (he got squished by a Tarasque) ran a fighter and he took abilities to double as a Controller in a pinch if he had to pull a large number of enemies off of Kassandra (the Wizard) because he some how got ahead of him self to finish off the enemy i wounded


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Nick Trotti 87 wrote:

As for the Question about Rain of Steel

it does read and sound as though thats what it does, assuming that the Fighter is capable of Dealing the Opportunity attack against what ever nears him and actually starts its turn there.

But with how much a Defender is going to have to move to defend the Squishy it seems unlikely he is going to be in a spot to get a opportunity attack against a target unless he works out a plan with another character to bait the poor sap. that's how i would do it. course i play a Deva Invoker

It reads to me like the fighter doesnt actually have to make an attack - he merely has to be capable of making an attack. Therefore, he can run into the midst of a group of enemies, adopt the stance and any minions all drop at the beginning of their turns and any non-minions take damage for as long as they remain adjacent. Given the fact they're likely to be marked pretty soon, running away brings its own risks. Plus, being a stance, it lasts for the rest of the encounter, provided the fighter doesnt switch into a new stance.

It doesnt seem to me like any attack is required - but as I say, the consequences of that seem to make it much more powerful than other fifth level dailies.

With regard to getting into position, I dont see how this is a problem - my defender often ends up in the thick of things with several adjacent opponents. If he only has one, it's unlikely to last for very long and regardless it's a relatively easy maneuver to shift away and move into range of more than one. Granted we're still feeling our way, so it's entirely possible that we or the DM are not using our talents effectively...


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Nick Trotti 87 wrote:

When compared to either Crack the shell or dizzying blow which do a large amount of damage it does seem that Rain of steel would be better in the long run as it would keep doing the damage EXCEPT that the conditions it needs to trigger the weapon damage must be met..thats a bit chancy to take honestly if i had a character i could trust to bait the enemy to pull him in to a area or push him even then i could see that being useful but at first glance i would have to take Crack the shell. i would rather put the hurt on something and make sure it feels the pain then deal nuisance damage to it. but then that depends on your play style i used to run a Avenger a Warlock and a Rouge so i like the aspect of dealing large amounts of Damage to a Single target and make him feel the burn so to speak.

But a idea i thought of is also are you attempting to fill a secondary role with your fighter? Chris the player who wants to make a new Character due to his rather Sad and Gruesome death (he got squished by a Tarasque) ran a fighter and he took abilities to double as a Controller in a pinch if he had to pull a large number of enemies off of Kassandra (the Wizard) because he some how got ahead of him self to finish off the enemy i wounded

Maybe this is my error - what conditions need to be met in order to trigger the weapon damage?

Grand Lodge

the enemy must actually provide you with the opportunity attack such as moving away from you or attacking a different target instead of you and is thus leaving him self open to your attack or perhaps the target is stunned or is prone those also i believe provoke opportunity attacks

But that is once again how i interpret the rules for opportunity attacks.


The interpretation I have of the Rain of Steel power is that you don't have to make an opportunity attack in order to deal that damage. As long as you aren't inhibited from making opportunity attacks (either from a monster's special ability, or just being dazed or stunned).

If it were really supposed to deal damage when you make an opportunity attack, I would imagine that they would have used different wording on the power. It would also take this power from (in my opinion) good daily to a very bad daily.

For the ability of the power, by the rules, I would say it does automatically kill minions that are damaged by it. It is a very effective minion killer, I'm not sure if this makes it too powerful though. Against non-minions it is still a reasonable power, but since you don't (at least, I don't think) add weapon enhancement, feat bonuses, or the like, the power is going to be doing a small bit of damage each round. It still looks good, but I'm not sure how powerful it is really.


Blazej is correct here - as long as you have the capability to make OAs, the Rain of Steel damage happens. It does not require you being granted the specific opportunity to do so.

It is quite powerful - many of the similar stances are. One possible ways to balance it for those concerned is to rule that minions only die when directly hit - this would seem in line with their 'take no damage on a miss' rule, and would prevent this (and similar effects) from clearing them out so effortlessly.


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At this stage, we're just running with the rules as they are so I'm not specifically looking for any suggested adjustments, just clarification that we're doing it right. Our concern is that we often screw up even the RAW. :/

With this particular power, it seems to me that it's pretty much an automatic "must-have". The alternatives may do 3W damage + str (or whatever) but the alternatives require an attack roll and only apply for one round. They seem more striker-ish than defender-ish to me. Basically, anytime I'm thinking of hitting something with a 3W daily power, it's very likely I'm expecting it to be there for a few rounds anyhow, so I may as well take rain of steel which will do the same amount over time, doesnt require an attack roll, plus will let me make an additional attack each round (at-will, encounter or even my other daily), plus it will automatically hit any other baddies in the immediate area. Plus it persists once my current foe falls and I move in to engage the next enemy.

It's the first time I've encountered a power for which any other choice appears inferior. Usually the powers have seemed very carefully balanced.


Matthew Koelbl wrote:
It is quite powerful - many of the similar stances are. One possible ways to balance it for those concerned is to rule that minions only die when directly hit - this would seem in line with their 'take no damage on a miss' rule, and would prevent this (and similar effects) from clearing them out so effortlessly.

The one issue I have with that though it that it has odd results in my mind for how powers like this work. Whether or not it is too powerful, Rain of Steel seems to be intended for Fighters who are facing a significant mob of enemies, such that, through most of the battle, he would have two or three enemies in melee at once. But if minions become immune to the power, it works odd in my mind for the fighter deciding whether to use this or not, as lets say, he sees nine enemies on the battlefield, which could be enough reason to use the power, but since from experience he knows that six of them are minions, he counts them as not creatures, totaling now three creatures which aren't enough to get him to use it.

As opposed to another situation whether the same fighter sees six enemies, but knows they are all not minions, so even though he is seeing a less crowded battlefield than before, he uses the power because he no longer sees the minions.

I would describe it the same way as minions dealing with a Wizard's Wall of Fire. If the fire doesn't damage (and kill) them, they can safely ignore the flames and continue to fight next to it without worry, a luxury that their superiors cannot afford as they can't continue to take that damage.

Now that long silly rambling rant is done, I guess I will just say that if one makes it so the auto-damage of Rain of Steel (and other powers) doesn't kill minions, I would suggest that the minions become weakened and dazed in order to let the minions react more appropriately to damaging effects in the world.


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Blazej wrote:
Matthew Koelbl wrote:
It is quite powerful - many of the similar stances are. One possible ways to balance it for those concerned is to rule that minions only die when directly hit - this would seem in line with their 'take no damage on a miss' rule, and would prevent this (and similar effects) from clearing them out so effortlessly.

The one issue I have with that though it that it has odd results in my mind for how powers like this work. Whether or not it is too powerful, Rain of Steel seems to be intended for Fighters who are facing a significant mob of enemies, such that, through most of the battle, he would have two or three enemies in melee at once. But if minions become immune to the power, it works odd in my mind for the fighter deciding whether to use this or not, as lets say, he sees nine enemies on the battlefield, which could be enough reason to use the power, but since from experience he knows that six of them are minions, he counts them as not creatures, totaling now three creatures which aren't enough to get him to use it.

As opposed to another situation whether the same fighter sees six enemies, but knows they are all not minions, so even though he is seeing a less crowded battlefield than before, he uses the power because he no longer sees the minions.

I would describe it the same way as minions dealing with a Wizard's Wall of Fire. If the fire doesn't damage (and kill) them, they can safely ignore the flames and continue to fight next to it without worry, a luxury that their superiors cannot afford as they can't continue to take that damage.

Now that long silly rambling rant is done, I guess I will just say that if one makes it so the auto-damage of Rain of Steel (and other powers) doesn't kill minions, I would suggest that the minions become weakened and dazed in order to let the minions react more appropriately to damaging effects in the world.

An alternative might be to stipulate that they are attacked by an additional attack of opportunity (not counting as the fighter's actuall AOO against them this round). At least that way there's a chance to miss, but the power still grants a serious benefit.

Grand Lodge

OK a stupid question I used to be a subscriber for D&D insider and i got the recent issue with the play test psionic now my problem is i accidentally let my subscription flat line and currently have major issues trying to get it to re accept a payment and i have contacted wizards help but they don't seem to be answering my emails..does any one know exactly where i can find the list of the powers and abilities of a psionic


Nick Trotti 87 wrote:

Alright Suggestion Noted about the class and I will attempt a revision of it and would Love help/Suggestions to deal with making it more balanced.

Also Chris brought up the idea of turning it in to a Martial Controller

You'd have to re-write the majority of the class, and its probably not worth the effort. If your player really wants to go with a more classic tank, they should probably play a paladin and houserule all the radiant powers so they inflict necrotic damage. Personally, I would suggest that your player go with an assault swordmage that focuses on a repetoire of cold and necrotic powers (be warned, there are not that many necrotic powers for the swordmage, plus you'll need AP or a DDI subscription). That way, they'll be an arcane defender with an element of controller, much the way the dark night class purports to be.


Steve Geddes wrote:

With this particular power, it seems to me that it's pretty much an automatic "must-have". The alternatives may do 3W damage + str (or whatever) but the alternatives require an attack roll and only apply for one round. They seem more striker-ish than defender-ish to me. Basically, anytime I'm thinking of hitting something with a 3W daily power, it's very likely I'm expecting it to be there for a few rounds anyhow, so I may as well take rain of steel which will do the same amount over time, doesnt require an attack roll, plus will let me make an additional attack each round (at-will, encounter or even my other daily), plus it will automatically hit any other baddies in the immediate area. Plus it persists once my current foe falls and I move in to engage the next enemy.

It's the first time I've encountered a power for which any other choice appears inferior. Usually the powers have seemed very carefully balanced.

The alternatives in the Player's Handbook are Crack the Shell and Dizzying Blow. Both are Reliable power so they aren't expended on a miss and, in addition, both have "save ends" effects (which could last only a round or less, but in good situations last two or three rounds).

*
Rain of Steel does guarantee that consistent damage, so if situations regularly have you facing two or more enemies at the same time, I think that this is a good power.

*

Crack the Shell doesn't do much immediate damage for a daily, but it applies ongoing damage that can make it match Rain of Steel's damage until the creature saves. But, to me, the penalty it applies to the target's AC is more interesting. If I were playing in a heavy AC-attacking party, this would be a good option as it would increase the chance to hit for all the other members of the party.

*

Dizzying Blow's effect is to immobilize an enemy until it saves. In most situations, I don't see that as incredibly helpful to a fighter, because just being next to a fighter is often enough to stop an enemy from moving around too much. But there are two places where using it would be better than Rain of Steel. The first is just to ensure the monster stays in place for at least a turn. A number of monsters have powers that let them move and make several attacks as a standard action, if your fighter already spent a first opportunity attack stopping the creatures first move action, you normally wouldn't be able to then stop it from using this power to run amok around the battlefield. In this case the immobilization blocks off a powerful ability for many creatures that a fighter can't stop normally.

*

The second situation is if a monster is just dealing too much damage for you to handle and healing yourself would take time. So in this situation it would be incredibly useful to use this power to stop a melee monster from moving before you back out of it's range. A number of monsters can't make any attacks more than a few squares away. If this is the case, at worst, it will have to waste that turn standing there while your ranged attackers pummel it, in better cases though it would give you the opportunity to drink potions as well as it spends turns unable to act while suffering continued damage.

By default, I would likely choose Rain of Steel, but if my current party favors one style over another, I can see myself choose one of the other two as well.


One thing to remember about Rain of Steel is that its a stance, which means you can't use another stance power without giving up the earlier benefits.


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Blazej wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

With this particular power, it seems to me that it's pretty much an automatic "must-have". The alternatives may do 3W damage + str (or whatever) but the alternatives require an attack roll and only apply for one round. They seem more striker-ish than defender-ish to me. Basically, anytime I'm thinking of hitting something with a 3W daily power, it's very likely I'm expecting it to be there for a few rounds anyhow, so I may as well take rain of steel which will do the same amount over time, doesnt require an attack roll, plus will let me make an additional attack each round (at-will, encounter or even my other daily), plus it will automatically hit any other baddies in the immediate area. Plus it persists once my current foe falls and I move in to engage the next enemy.

It's the first time I've encountered a power for which any other choice appears inferior. Usually the powers have seemed very carefully balanced.

The alternatives in the Player's Handbook are Crack the Shell and Dizzying Blow. Both are Reliable power so they aren't expended on a miss and, in addition, both have "save ends" effects (which could last only a round or less, but in good situations last two or three rounds).

*
Rain of Steel does guarantee that consistent damage, so if situations regularly have you facing two or more enemies at the same time, I think that this is a good power.

*

Crack the Shell doesn't do much immediate damage for a daily, but it applies ongoing damage that can make it match Rain of Steel's damage until the creature saves. But, to me, the penalty it applies to the target's AC is more interesting. If I were playing in a heavy AC-attacking party, this would be a good option as it would increase the chance to hit for all the other members of the party.

*

Dizzying Blow's effect is to immobilize an enemy until it saves. In most situations, I don't see that as incredibly helpful to a fighter, because just being next to a fighter is often enough to stop an enemy from...

Cheers. You make a lot of sense here. (I'm still not in the habit of thinking about how to maximise other party members' effectiveness through the choice of powers). Also, I missed the signficance of the reliable keyword. That certainly alleviates part of my concern.


Blazej wrote:


The one issue I have with that though it that it has odd results in my mind for how powers like this work. Whether or not it is too powerful, Rain of Steel seems to be intended for Fighters who are facing a significant mob of enemies, such that, through most of the battle, he would have two or three enemies in melee at once. But if minions become immune to the power, it works odd in my mind for the fighter deciding whether to use this or not, as lets say, he sees nine enemies on the battlefield, which could be enough reason to use the power, but since from experience he knows that six of them are minions, he counts them as not creatures, totaling now three creatures which aren't enough to get him to use it.

As opposed to another situation whether the same fighter sees six enemies, but knows they are all not minions, so even though he is seeing a less crowded battlefield than before, he uses the power because he no longer sees the minions.

I would describe it the same way as minions dealing with a Wizard's Wall of Fire. If the fire doesn't damage (and kill) them, they can safely ignore the flames and continue to fight next to it without worry, a luxury that their superiors cannot afford as they can't continue to take that damage.

Now that long silly rambling rant is done, I guess I will just say that if one makes it so the auto-damage of Rain of Steel (and other powers) doesn't kill minions, I would suggest that the minions become weakened and dazed in order to let the minions react more appropriately to damaging effects in the world.

A 50% chance they die every time they take non-direct damage would probably deal with the issue pretty effectivly. Still amazing without it being an auto-kill.


Ratchet wrote:

Not to sure, probably for completionism.

I believe its just 360gp.

Does anyone know if there is a more definitive answer?

Ratchet wrote:
Elven accuracy is a requirement of the feat so you cant take the feat unless you have it.

That's what I thought, but I wanted to make sure. Thanks.

Ratchet wrote:
You can wield an implement in your "offhand". Some classes however (namely clerics and Paladins) Dont have to wield there implements to get benefits from them, they just have to have them (around there neck or something)

I understand that. However, I want to know if you can hold a shield and wield an implement in the same hand, or if an implement is more like a weapon, in that you can't wield both a shield and an implement in the same hand.

BTW, I used the term 'shield hand' because that's the term the book uses.


P.H. Dungeon wrote:
Doesn't a wizard need an implement to use their implement power like "wand of accuracy"?

You know, even though I said, "other than the wizard" in my first post, it never crossed my mind that these implements were included for... the wizard.

That was a duh moment for me if there ever was one. :P


DoveArrow wrote:
P.H. Dungeon wrote:
Doesn't a wizard need an implement to use their implement power like "wand of accuracy"?

You know, even though I said, "other than the wizard" in my first post, it never crossed my mind that these implements were included for... the wizard.

That was a duh moment for me if there ever was one. :P

Yeah, there is no base effect to using one, so they were mainly put in for flavor, and for the wizard - and presumably so future feats/classes/etc could make use of them as well. For example, with Implement Expertise from PHB2 (which grants a bonus to attack rolls with a specific type of implement), getting a nonmagical implement would allow you to gain the benefit of the feat from level 1.

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