Where is my Blackguards? I thought some of the tricks and powers they got where cool. But they had so much potential. I fel the thing that really killed it for me was:
1. 5 ranks in Hide
what the hell? why?
2. Being an ex-paaladin of level 10 or better was the only way to milk it for the most powers.
thats kind of understandable.
I think the class had some good points to it like the use of poison and sneak attack but I think they could have devled deeper into some really nasty stuff to make the blackguard a vanguard of evil.
I definately want to see PF do a re-working of the class.
Where is my Blackguards?
[snip]
I was also disappointed to see this PrC wasn't in the Beta .pdf... until I read these boards and realised that Paizo are currently working on turning the Blackguard into a full 20-level class. ;)
Personally, I'm quite keen to see what they come up with: given what they've already done for other classes and creatures, their take on a 'base-class' Blackguard promises to be... lively. :D
(Erm... could the longer-time residents please tell me if should I be doing a 'first post dance', or something? ^.~)
EDIT: corrected for grammar/clarity ;)
The blackguard was an awesome villian class, to be sure. I was surprised to see that it will be a 20-level class for the simple reason of having an ex-paladin turning to the dark side some time in his career, making for tragic, dangerous anti-heroes.
Good-guys-gone-bad is more fun than girls-gone-wild (well, in a game, anyway,)! I'll withhold judgement until we see it. If they do as good a job revamping it as we've seen with the core classes, it might work out just fine.
The blackguard was an awesome villian class, to be sure. I was surprised to see that it will be a 20-level class for the simple reason of having an ex-paladin turning to the dark side some time in his career, making for tragic, dangerous anti-heroes.
Good-guys-gone-bad is more fun than girls-gone-wild (well, in a game, anyway,)! I'll withhold judgement until we see it. If they do as good a job revamping it as we've seen with the core classes, it might work out just fine.
I'd agree, so I suspect that there will be something built into the class that allows a paladin to "fall" into it. Which, if so, I suppose raises the question if the blackguard becomes good, could he switch into the paladin class?
It all depends on how desperate the forces of good are and how genuine the blackguard's repentance is, and even then it would be a hard trick to pull. Part of this is because one of the classic archetypes of the paladin is Parsival, who's the perfect innocent knight, and if you've been at all devoted to being a blackguard, it's really hard to be innocent after you've sacrificed virgins and kittens, molested liches and did who knows what all. Jaded, maybe. Regretful, possibly. Innocent, no.
You're not going to be able to be Galahad either, the holy knight who was pretty much born with true faith and never stepped off the path because he was too holy to even be human. At best, you might end up like Lancelot, who fell from grace but then overcame his failings, but really, not likely.
Which isn't to say that the repentant villain isn't a good archetype or unplayable. It's just that, with the exception of really extreme battlefield conditions, you're not going to see the Powers of Good shining a spotlight down from the clouds on anyone who's somewhat less than the perfect posterchild of all things good.
It all depends on how desperate the forces of good are and how genuine the blackguard's repentance is, and even then it would be a hard trick to pull. Part of this is because one of the classic archetypes of the paladin is Parsival, who's the perfect innocent knight, and if you've been at all devoted to being a blackguard, it's really hard to be innocent after you've sacrificed virgins and kittens, molested liches and did who knows what all. Jaded, maybe. Regretful, possibly. Innocent, no.
You're not going to be able to be Galahad either, the holy knight who was pretty much born with true faith and never stepped off the path because he was too holy to even be human. At best, you might end up like Lancelot, who fell from grace but then overcame his failings, but really, not likely.
Which isn't to say that the repentant villain isn't a good archetype or unplayable. It's just that, with the exception of really extreme battlefield conditions, you're not going to see the Powers of Good shining a spotlight down from the clouds on anyone who's somewhat less than the perfect posterchild of all things good.
Very good points, and I like your examples. I suppose it would depend on how far the idea of "redemption" goes in your campaign. For example, can all sins be forgiven in the church of one particular god but not in another? Regardless, I was thinking more mechanically, ie. if the process is described in the rules for how to convert a fallen paladin 8 into a blackguard 8, (or 7 or whatever), then the reverse process would be inherent, whether stipulated or not.
Very good points, and I like your examples. I suppose it would depend on how far the idea of "redemption" goes in your campaign. For example, can all sins be forgiven in the church of one particular god but not in another? Regardless, I was thinking more mechanically, ie. if the process is described in the rules for how to convert a fallen paladin 8 into a blackguard 8, (or 7 or whatever), then the reverse process would be inherent, whether stipulated or not.
Honestly, all that's required by the RAW is honest contrition, an Atonement spell, and a lawful good cleric willing to sacrifice 500 XP (following the SRD) or 2500 gp of rare herbs and incense (following the Pathfinder web enhancement) to beg his god to intercede. Or a Smart Alec wizard who uses a Limited Wish to the same effect to get some god somewhere to do the forgivin' in exchange for a shiny diamond and torching the incense warehouse.
That said, unless the All Forgivin' God, whoever He is, starts tossing out miracles like rice at a wedding, there's going to be an awful lot of bad blood with all the blackguards former victims. Is the god willing and able to do mass resurrections, restorations of virginity, performing the Heimlich on dark gods until they spit up souls they've devoured? Unburn and undesecrate a few other gods' shrines and temples? No? Then don't expect humanity, other gods, and various supernatural entities in between to feel in a very forgivin' mood. Especially that minor saint whose reliquary was used as a urinal and the peasant woman whose daughter was sacrificed to demons on what was supposed to be her wedding night.
Undoubtedly there's some grand crusade or something equally pressing that the All Forgivin' God thinks is important enough to redeem a blackguard into a paladin for--there always is--but if you want to be lawful as well as good, there should be a simple quest first: Right every wrong you've ever done and earn the forgiveness of every soul involved.
Anything less than that is basically the temple selling indulgences, and while that may be lawful, it is probably not good. And you need both to be a paladin.
Honestly, all that's required by the RAW is honest contrition, an Atonement spell, and a lawful good cleric willing to sacrifice 500 XP (following the SRD) or 2500 gp of rare herbs and incense (following the Pathfinder web enhancement) to beg his god to intercede. Or a Smart Alec wizard who uses a Limited Wish to the same effect to get some god somewhere to do the forgivin' in exchange for a shiny diamond and torching the incense warehouse.
That said, unless the All Forgivin' God, whoever He is, starts tossing out miracles like rice at a wedding, there's going to be an awful lot of bad blood with all the blackguards former victims. Is the god willing and able to do mass resurrections, restorations of virginity, performing the Heimlich on dark gods until they spit up souls they've devoured? Unburn and undesecrate a few other gods' shrines and temples? No? Then don't expect humanity, other gods, and various supernatural entities in between to feel in a very forgivin' mood. Especially that minor saint whose reliquary was used as a urinal and the peasant woman whose daughter was sacrificed to demons on what was supposed to be her wedding night.Undoubtedly there's some grand crusade or something equally pressing that the All Forgivin' God thinks is important enough to redeem a blackguard into a paladin for--there always is--but if you want to be lawful as well as good, there should be a simple quest first: Right every wrong you've ever done and earn the forgiveness of every soul involved.
Anything less than that is basically the temple selling indulgences, and while that may be lawful, it is probably not good. And you need both to be a paladin.
So if I understand you correctly, you would disallow it because it breaks your suspension of disbelief in your campaign world ie. you want it to be a logical expression of your world and make sense within its social and religious framework. I, on the other hand, am only concerned is there a mechanic to achieve it, and would it be make for a good story.
*shrug*
To each his own.
So if I understand you correctly, you would disallow it because it breaks your suspension of disbelief in your campaign world ie. you want it to be a logical expression of your world and make sense within its social and religious framework. I, on the other hand, am only concerned is there a mechanic to achieve it, and would it be make for a good story.
*shrug*
To each his own.
That there's a mechanic for it is is unquestionable. And even if there weren't the Atonement spell, there'd always be Rule 0--the DM can do whatever he wants.
As for whether it would make a good story, it really depends. Is your former-blackguard-turned-paladin going to be a tortured hero, struggling vainly to make amends for some portion of his past evils? Or is he an evangelical prig doing a superiority dance around the mother of the murdered girl, because his god has forgiven him, and if she can't forgive him too, that's her sin?
If you're going to play with paladins or blackguards, you're going to have to decide on a social and religious framework, but more than that, you'll have to decide what Good and Evil are. Are they nothing more than gang colors? You know, Good is the gang with White, Blue and Gold and the Lions, Suns and Eagles, whereas Evil is the gang with the Black, Red and Silver with Bats, Skulls and Snakes? Or is it something greater than that?
If your blackguard's only sin is the fashion crime of wearing a bat hat and a skull codpiece instead of an eagle hat and a lion breastplate, yeah, sure, that's easy to atone for. And even consensual relations with demons and the undead are probably pardonable. Who wouldn't be tempted by a threesome with a succubus and a hot vamp?
But once you rack up a little torture, murder and rape, that gets a lot stickier. And you expect the priest doing the Atonement to require more than three "Hail Pelors" and a donation to the poorbox.
That there's a mechanic for it is is unquestionable. And even if there weren't the Atonement spell, there'd always be Rule 0--the DM can do whatever he wants.As for whether it would make a good story, it really depends. Is your former-blackguard-turned-paladin going to be a tortured hero, struggling vainly to make amends for some portion of his past evils? Or is he an evangelical prig doing a superiority dance around the mother of the murdered girl, because his god has forgiven him, and if she can't forgive him too, that's her sin?
If you're going to play with paladins or blackguards, you're going to have to decide on a social and religious framework, but more than that, you'll have to decide what Good and Evil are. Are they nothing more than gang colors? You know, Good is the gang with White, Blue and Gold and the Lions, Suns and Eagles, whereas Evil is the gang with the Black, Red and Silver with Bats, Skulls and Snakes? Or is it something greater than that?
If your blackguard's only sin is the fashion crime of wearing a bat hat and a skull codpiece instead of an eagle hat and a lion breastplate, yeah, sure, that's easy to atone for. And even consensual relations with demons and the undead are probably pardonable. Who wouldn't be tempted by a threesome with a succubus and a hot vamp?
But once you rack up a little torture, murder and rape, that gets a lot stickier. And you expect the priest doing the Atonement to require more than three "Hail Pelors" and a donation to the poorbox.
I agree it's the story that would be the determining factor, though "good" will be relative to the group playing. I wouldn't support flippin' hats willy-nilly. But a plot hinging upon the atonement of a longtime enemy of the PC's, perhaps now requiring their protection despite their intimate knowledge of his misdeeds could lead to some interesting rp'ing opportunities in my group. If the players don't believe the former blackguard deserves the reversal, so much the better for generating conflict.
I agree it's the story that would be the determining factor, though "good" will be relative to the group playing. I wouldn't support flippin' hats willy-nilly. But a plot hinging upon the atonement of a longtime enemy of the PC's, perhaps now requiring their protection despite their intimate knowledge of his misdeeds could lead to some interesting rp'ing opportunities in my group. If the players don't believe the former blackguard deserves the reversal, so much the...
The "good" is good, but don't forget the "law" part of the equation. Is the former blackguard civilly and criminally liable for his past misdeeds, and can the temple of his new faith be held responsible for any portion of his past debts, especially if he's done the paladin thing and given them most of his loot? Can his current associates, the PCs, if it's found that they're shielding a wanted outlaw and fugitive?
The nonreligious part of an atonement is called a pardon, but even if it's good in one kingdom, it's not going to necessarily be good in the next. And it's only good insofar as the rule of law extends. There will be plenty of people who won't respect it, and in fact would probably take it as a sign of state corruption that the king pardoned Sir Judas, Sir Hitler and Sir Jack-the-Ripper.
Good points. A formerly evil character is likely guilty of many sins, not all of which can be forgiven, under the law.
Such a character, as you've stated, may well be a changed person, but if that's true, a paladin would then turn himself in for say, murder or some other heinous crime, whether he's wanted for it or not.
He'd be bound to satisfy the law, however sincere his contrition.
The PCs protecting such a character could be trying to keep him alive so he can go stand trial for what he's done previously, and would be reluctant to kill people who know of his evil and want revenge now, not later.
Not a bad story hook! XP for keeping him alive and NOT killing angry opponents.
A friend of mine was in a guerilla war decades ago. He told me about one of his group who ratted out their plans to the military.
They caught the guy and beat a confession out of him. Their last words to him were "God may forgive you, but we don't."
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There's a difference between sins and crimes, unless of course you live in a rigid theocracy, where the two are synonymous.
A paladin could fall from grace for actions that went against his Code (lying, wrath, failure to grant mercy or accept surrender, over-zealous pursuit of evil-doers, undercover association with low-ranking villains to catch their leader, accidental collateral damage, etc), but were not actually serious enough to be considered illegal.
In fact, the regular law-abiding public may even approve of the actions that cause him to be ostracised by his order. And consider the paladin's former order to be at fault, for unrealistic airy-fairy ideals that pussyfoot around and protect evildoers.
That over-zealous behaviour is the sort of behaviour I could expect to be absolved, via Atonement. And the public may very well not bat an eye if he gets reinstated to full paladinhood, in fact, they may read it as evidence that the Church has been forced to be pragmatic, and accept that their 'Dark Knight' was right all along...
But stepping over the line, to willingly perform evil acts?
That's another matter. And even if you are forgiven, and Atone, you may still never be welcome back to your former position. The best you can hope for is to avoid execution, and live out your days under permanent scrutiny by those who refuse to believe you're sincere.
Case in point: (Watchmen Spoiler alert)
How many are going to cheer for Ozymandias?
I hardly think the US is a rigid theocracy, to give an example, and yet murder is generally at the top of the sin and the crime list, and both theocrats and atheists seem to agree that it's a bad thing.
Ditto rape, for the most part.
Torture and slavery leave room for waffling, mostly about what is and isn't, but there's some general agreement.
Any blackguard worth the name should have done at least a few murders, and in particularly unpleasant and heinous ways too. Not just "In the name of Vecna, I stab thee!" which makes them basically just a mugger in a bat hat and skull codpiece.
I hardly think the US is a rigid theocracy, to give an example, and yet murder is generally at the top of the sin and the crime list, and both theocrats and atheists seem to agree that it's a bad thing.
Ditto rape, for the most part.
Torture and slavery leave room for waffling, mostly about what is and isn't, but there's some general agreement.
Any blackguard worth the name should have done at least a few murders, and in particularly unpleasant and heinous ways too. Not just "In the name of Vecna, I stab thee!" which makes them basically just a mugger in a bat hat and skull codpiece.
He would be certifiably looney in the real world. In fantasy, he's someone you'd feel good about killing! ;-)