Bracers of Armor are not a form of armor, they just give an armor bonus. They are a wondrous item that provides protection. A fighter would gain nothing from wearing bracers of armor becuase the bracers are not armor, they just provide an Armor bonus to AC.
The best way to explain it is Bracers of Armor is a magic item that provides the wearer with a constant mage armor spell at a specific strength.
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This item is really for the monk class. that is why it can go all the way to +8 instead of the normal +5. It is also why you can add armor inhancements to it. This is the work around for the class limitations, just like the amulet of mighty fists gives the monk attack bonuses and weapon inhancements. It is also why armor doesn't stack. so other races don't double dip.
Bracers of Armor are not a form of armor, they just give an armor bonus. They are a wondrous item that provides protection. A fighter would gain nothing from wearing bracers of armor becuase the bracers are not armor, they just provide an Armor bonus to AC.
The best way to explain it is Bracers of Armor is a magic item that provides the wearer with a constant mage armor spell at a specific strength.
I understand how bracers of armor work, yet armor grants an armor bonus as does mage armor and bracers of armor. One source is magical and one is not.
Does this mean that magic armor does not work with armor training?
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What about the creation questions?
Incorrect, both sources are magical, that's why the bracers of armor is a magical item. They are not armor, since they are not armor they offer nothing to the fighter.
A fighter does require the appropiate feats to use armor without penalties... he just gets them for free at first level.
I wouldn't count them as armour, since without their magic, they don't provide protection. You can't forge them the way you can forge a breastplate - though I have to say that if you can work leather to make a leather armour, making the bracers should work, too.
But that's just the basic item. You still have to make them magical for them to provide any protection.
Frankly, I'd allow fighters to use them with armour training. I'd also allow fighters to use armour training with normal clothes. No need to force the fighter to wear armour - it's usually the better choice, anyway.
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I would say it doesn't break the game slightly. situation:
BoA+8
Fullplate(MW)8AC
ARMOR TRAINING+4AC
total=+20AC versus the Fullplate regular 8+5+4= 17AC or 22AC with dex mod.(rough estimate)
Heavy armor is still gonna sqeeze out an edge if you boost the BoA vs the armor itself.
however BoA+8 with no Max dex means high dex characters can get reasonably close say:
Physical perfection+4
BoA+8
Dex 22 (+4 ability boosts from leveling)
so dex=+8 over all
+16AC vs. +17 isn't that bad. and heavy armor guys will have the PP+4 so they will get some ac bonus. all in all the heavy still has better armor, but the key is that the armorless classes can compete. and there are still dodge bonuses, and natural armors that anyone can take. all in all it becomes close enough not to matter, however it is all a balance of how many high priced items you can afford. a +8 item is expencive, and can a fighter who needs a kick butt weapon afford the bracers? no. not unless he sacrifices alot more.
Ok, that may be a muddled mess, but all in all it cannot be broken to badly. and in the end all classes can have the same AC.
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I would say it doesn't break the game slightly. situation:
BoA+8
Fullplate(MW)8AC
ARMOR TRAINING+4AC
total=+20AC versus the Fullplate regular 8+5+4= 17AC or 22AC with dex mod.(rough estimate)Heavy armor is still gonna sqeeze out an edge if you boost the BoA vs the armor itself.
Armor and Bracers of Armor don't stack; they both provide armor bonuses.
I would say that Bracers of Armor do count as armor for the purposes of the Fighter ability, since it does say in it's description that it acts as though the person is wearing armor; the Armor Training feature says that it applies when he's wearing armor.
HOWEVER, I think that using Bracers of Armor in lieu of actual armor is a pretty stupid idea for a fighter. That's a lot of AC that the character's throwing away, after all.
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I would say that Bracers of Armor do count as armor for the purposes of the Fighter ability, since it does say in it's description that it acts as though the person is wearing armor; the Armor Training feature says that it applies when he's wearing armor.Thank you for that. At least I know someone else is reading this the same way as me.
Believe me, my gut instinct was to say no; I personally don't think that the bracers should count (really, the only person who comes close to using bracers as armor is Wonder Woman, and she uses them more like a shield), but as it's worded, it should work. Mind you, the Mage Armor spell WON'T work because it doesn't say that the force field is being worn like an armor.
HOWEVER, I think that using Bracers of Armor in lieu of actual armor is a pretty stupid idea for a fighter. That's a lot of AC that the character's throwing away, after all.Not sure I follow you on this part. Bracers of armor +8 and full plate armor both grant an armor bonus of +8. Unless you mean it would be throwing away the chance of getting +5 full plate which grants +13 to armor versus the bracers which top out at +8, then I would agree.
Armor can be improved to a maximum of +10 (with five of that that can be used for AC enhancement), while Bracers can only be improved to +8, which can all be used for AC enhancement. With Full Plate, that's +8 Armor Bonus, +5 Enchantment Bonus, and another five for various spell effects, while the Bracers are stuck with just +8.
For lighter people, it's a +4 Armor bonus for a Chain Shirt, +5 Enchantment Bonus, and another five for spell effects with, say, 22 Dexterity, versus the same 22 Dexterity plus +8 AC. It comes out closer, but the Bracers still lose out. I think someone else said it best when they said that the Bracers work best for Monks.
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I would think Bracers of Armor should go in with Craft Wondrous Items. In the case of Breastplate versus Bracers, the Breastplate is at least assumed to be a pre-existing thing, there needs to be Masterwork Breastplate available to enchant. Thus, all the crafter is doing is enchanting the armor bonus to the item. One is a suit of armor, one is a pair of bracers.
Of course, I can't explain magic, but it seems to me that the question we should be asking is: Should the Craft feats cover *type* of item or *function*? If Type, then yes, Bracers would go under Wondrous. If Function, then Bracers should go under Armor, along with anything else that provides an Armor bonus.
Personally, I kind of wish that Function mattered a bit and the Bracers could go under Magic Arms and Armor. As it stands with the current rules, that would be a bit inconsistent.
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I was looking at the +8 BoA as an enhancement bonus to armor. so it would stack to mundane armor. at least that is the way i see it. This mans that you get +8 enhancement vs. +5 enhancement. it does not say that a total of +10 is impossible for the BoA, so you can still get holy armor or something like that.
I was looking at the +8 BoA as an enhancement bonus to armor. so it would stack to mundane armor. at least that is the way i see it. This mans that you get +8 enhancement vs. +5 enhancement. it does not say that a total of +10 is impossible for the BoA, so you can still get holy armor or something like that.
I can understand wishing for an enchancement bonus for AC, however the BoA specifically state that they are an armor bonus, and armor bonuses don't stack.
Mage Armor states that it provides an Armor bonus to AC however it doesn't have an armor penalty, max dex bonus, or arcane spell failure chance. So if we are going to say BoA works with Armor training (in direct contradiction of what the features actually says it does) then Mage Armor should work with it too.
The fighters basis is he is an equipment monger (weapons and armor)
His class feature of weapon and armor training, are meant to represent that he is better with that commonly available equipment that any other.
Armor training is exactly that, training with armor. NOT a nat bonus to AC, NOT skill in dodging weapons or attacks, NOT a magical or innate bonus. ONLY that when he wears armor (or uses a shield) to can optimize that equipment to get better results from it than others.
A fighter does not do better damage with his fists or biting when he uses weapon training, its only with the weapons he has chosen to work with.
Armor training doesnt worked naked, or with bracers or rings of protection or under the spell mage armor.
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WOTC sort of blured the lines with this with the Arms and Equipment Guide.
If you had both Craft Arms and Armor and Craft Wonderous items you could create a bracer set with the benefits of armor enhancements.
It states that the Armor bonus of Bracers can not be higher than +8, but special abilities expressed as bonuses can bring the bonus up to +13. Armor qualities that are expresses in gp get added the same as normal.
Epic Bracers require epic feat combos.
I seriously don't think that these types of bracers were meant to be mixed and matched with armor, magic or other wise. I'd just stat that donong this regular armor prevents the magic item from working, but that's me.
You could argue that this was a 3.0 book, but if I recall this owas one that was supposed to bridge the gap between 3.0 and 3.5.
The fighters basis is he is an equipment monger (weapons and armor)
His class feature of weapon and armor training, are meant to represent that he is better with that commonly available equipment that any other.
Armor training is exactly that, training with armor. NOT a nat bonus to AC, NOT skill in dodging weapons or attacks, NOT a magical or innate bonus. ONLY that when he wears armor (or uses a shield) to can optimize that equipment to get better results from it than others.A fighter does not do better damage with his fists or biting when he uses weapon training, its only with the weapons he has chosen to work with.
Armor training doesnt worked naked, or with bracers or rings of protection or under the spell mage armor.
Armor training says nothing of using a shield to gain the bonus (I posted the class ability above).
The fighter does actually gain the benefits of weapon training with his fists. Unarmed strike is listed under the Close category in the Weapon Training class feature (Pathfinder RPG - BETA, page 28). I would say bite fits as well since it is an unarmed strike.
Bracers says as if "wearing armor" in the description. +1 bracers would be like wearing padded armor, +4 bracers like chain shirt or scale and +8 bracers like full plate. Granted it's armor with no maximum Dex bonus, no armor check penalty, no arcane spell failure and little weight. The bonus received would be minimal at best. A bonus only higher level fighters would get. Doesn't seem like a huge issue to me or is there something I'm missing?
Armor mastery is the highest form or armor training and DOES mention the shield. This is probably aquestion for errata.
The armor training class feature SPECIFICALLY states "WEARING" armor.
Bracers are NOT "Wearing" any armor. They are in lieu of armor.
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I was looking at the +8 BoA as an enhancement bonus to armor. so it would stack to mundane armor. at least that is the way i see it. This mans that you get +8 enhancement vs. +5 enhancement. it does not say that a total of +10 is impossible for the BoA, so you can still get holy armor or something like that.
Except it says specifically that the Bracers of Armor provides an armor bonus, not enhancement bonus. They don't stack. Check P370 or DMG250. And yes, it does specifically state that you can get up to +8 on the Bracers. "Bracers of Armor cannot haver a modified bonus (armor bonus plus armor special ability bonus equilvalents) higher than +8". Plus, you can't put enhancements on Bracers that have a flat cost, which is another plus for magical armor.
So, rules sticklers, can the armor bonus provided by bracers of armor be improved with a magic vestment spell? If I have bracers +8, and my 16th level cleric buddy casts MV on me, do I have AC 22?
P.S. I personally have no problem with armor training applying to bracers of armor. In fact, I've houseruled that a fighter holding a shield (not using an animated shield or ring of force shield or shield spell) and using it strictly for defense (not for bashing) gets stacking armor training bonuses: one for his armor, one for his shield (much in the way enhancement bonuses on these items stack).
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So, rules sticklers, can the armor bonus provided by bracers of armor be improved with a magic vestment spell? If I have bracers +8, and my 16th level cleric buddy casts MV on me, do I have AC 22?
That's a tough one. I'll divide this into two possible arguments.
Rules Lawyer Guy Argument: Magic Vestment looks like it can only be cast on a suit of armor or a shield. It appears bracers don't create a suit of armor.
Liberal Interpretation: Yes, you can cast it on bracers of armor. They give an armor bonus, afterall!
Rules Lawyer Guy Argument: Magic Vestment looks like it can only be cast on a suit of armor or a shield. It appears bracers don't create a suit of armor.
Liberal Interpretation: Yes, you can cast it on bracers of armor. They give an armor bonus, afterall!
Yes, that was my assessment exactly -- both answers. Thanks! I wondered what various people here would say -- I have to admit I didn't expect anyone else to see the merit in both sides of the issue -- usually people are violently partisan instead, asserting that any opposing viewpoint is founded in stupidity and intellectual laziness, at the best.
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Yes, that was my assessment exactly -- both answers. Thanks! I wondered what various people here would say -- I have to admit I didn't expect anyone else to see the merit in both sides of the issue -- usually people are violently partisan instead, asserting that any opposing viewpoint is founded in stupidity and intellectual laziness, at the best.Rules Lawyer Guy Argument: Magic Vestment looks like it can only be cast on a suit of armor or a shield. It appears bracers don't create a suit of armor.
Liberal Interpretation: Yes, you can cast it on bracers of armor. They give an armor bonus, afterall!
You're both doo-doo heads for having your own opinions and you should be playing 4th Edition!
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Kidding! :p
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I'd allow it simply on the grounds that the spell says that it works on normal clothing as well as armor.
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Yes, that was my assessment exactly -- both answers. Thanks! I wondered what various people here would say -- I have to admit I didn't expect anyone else to see the merit in both sides of the issue -- usually people are violently partisan instead, asserting that any opposing viewpoint is founded in stupidity and intellectual laziness, at the best.Rules Lawyer Guy Argument: Magic Vestment looks like it can only be cast on a suit of armor or a shield. It appears bracers don't create a suit of armor.
Liberal Interpretation: Yes, you can cast it on bracers of armor. They give an armor bonus, afterall!
Oh, I'm violently partisan. We should ban bracers of armor AND magic vestments. /snark
:p
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It should say, when wearing light, medium or heavy armor...
I don't think it applies to shields...or that would provide 2 armor mastery bonuses for armor and shield...of course that would make sword and board fighters much more appealing.
bracers of armor require no proficiency therefor they are not actual armor.
I think you would be able to put shield modfiers on bracers.
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You are referring to the sidebar on p130 of the Arms and Equipment Guide. I would disagree about it blurring lines. The bracers still require Craft Wondrous Item to make, and the armor enhancements still require Craft Arms and Armor. To cross an armor enhancement to a non-armor item, you need both crafting feats. It provides a clearly defined bridge.
You're missing the point. It does blur the line because we are in a discussion right now because we are debating using bracers with suits of armor.
I have not read through the entire thread, so my comment might be out of line. If it is please forgive me. As I understand the idea is can bracers be used with armor. Generally I do not believe so. However, I seem to remember a set of bracers that can be used with armor from the Arms & Equipment Guide called Dastana's. They granted a +1 bonus to AC and were allowed to work with armor. Now following a sort of twisted logic, if Bracers can have enhancements placed on them with the proper feats, then why cannot Dastana's have the same thing done.
Just my 2 cp.
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I have not read through the entire thread, so my comment might be out of line. If it is please forgive me. As I understand the idea is can bracers be used with armor. Generally I do not believe so. However, I seem to remember a set of bracers that can be used with armor from the Arms & Equipment Guide called Dastana's. They granted a +1 bonus to AC and were allowed to work with armor. Now following a sort of twisted logic, if Bracers can have enhancements placed on them with the proper feats, then why cannot Dastana's have the same thing done.
Just my 2 cp.
You are right, they can be enchanted like armor, however, they do require Armor Proficiency (light)to use.
Rereading this is very interesting because they stack with the foundation armor and shield. They also however add a 5% spell failure and add an additional -1 Max Dex bonus.
It is limited to use with padded, leather and chain shirt armor though.
According to the chart in the A&E guide, it indicates that the dastana is treated as a type of shield, indicating that it would have to be enchanted as such. (I would restrict the animated enchantment though)
There are many things that the rules don't explicitly say you can't do. The rules don't explicitly say you can't do the "I'm a Little Teapot" dance and instantly heal back to full starting hit points as a result. The rules don't explicitly say your first level character can't have a titanium-reinforced skeleton and cybernetic weaponry.
Items or spells descriptions that bring into question potential contradictions will spell out the resolution of those contradictions, if they are well-written. If not, player and DM judgement and cooperation are called for (I refrain from calling for "common sense," because in my experience there is no such thing).
Case in point: missing equipment: shaving razor. The rules don't specifically state that my character can have a mustache, but no beard, implying that a human should be clean-shaven, or have a mustache AND beard. Yet, for the former case, no shaving razors are listed in the equipment purchase tables, and the dagger description does not specifically state that it can be used for shaving. Does that mean that all human men are required to have beards? So what I do is talk to the DM, we all agree that some manner of shaving is possible, and that I can have a mustache but not a beard, if I want. If marooned with no supplies, eventually I'd grow a beard. As long as I'm not trying to pull some sort of infinite-wealth loop by selling hair for wigs, there should be few problems.
Well, I think I made my point and will leave it at that.
Indeed; your point was well-made, and in most cases, the conservative approach you advocate is the policy least likely to lead to unforseen problems. My "tangent" was simply meant to illustrate only that following that point in all cases, without some give and take, is maybe not always the most reasonable policy (if the relevance of the analogy was not clear, I apologize).
Back to the topic at hand; bracers of armor can be made with the craft arms and armor feat, aye or nay? Can you add shield enchantments to bracers of armor, aye or nay?
Tholas' point (which applies immediately to the topic at hand) leads to a flat "no" vote for both. My caveat says that maybe you need to talk with your players if they want to do it, and look ahead as to what types of abuse are possible. So my personal vote is a "maybe."