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While that's something that I'm trying to impress upon my authors to keep in mind for some dungeons... sometimes, the point is to have a cramped dungeon. Particularly in the case where you're fighting goblins or kobolds, or particularly in the case where you're going for a more realistic feel for a cramped underground region. It's a balancing act to have big open areas and realistic areas, but I'm unwilling to throw realism completely out the window just for the sake of making things simple on the PCs.
I'm just bitter about
The party blasted him from outside the room.
Creative Director
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And also...
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Virtual Tabletops man. Virtual Tabletops.
They solve all of your printing issues.
They solve all of your scaling issues.
They solve all of your miniatures issues.
They even solve your long-distance player & gas issues (though I play with everyone at the table).
For my game table, I run my laptop, an ASUS 900 EEEPC (the dinky one for $400), and a monitor. Most groups have access to 2 lappys. The software I use costs $30 and I only need one license.
We are currently going through Rise of the Runelords, converted to 4E (thanks Scott!) and using some of my maps and scans from the modules. No minis, no hand-drawn maps, infinite scaling (I doubled the dimensions of Thistletop), and faster game play. Even better, the images we can use for the game and "minis" are wonderful and just a Google search away.
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I just am worried about the difficulty of putting them together...My kindergarten teacher did a poor job on teaching the use of scissors ;-).
I still would just prefer 1 inch scale battle maps.
Having purchased several World Works products I found them very easy to assemble and the instructions very user friendly. However, as mentioned by others, the need for storage and the cost of ink to print them yourself is a bigger issue. You will need a good hobby knife and a cutting mat which can be purchased for $20 for both at a craft store. I wouldn't recommend using sissors, although you could.
Oversized miniatures are not as big of an issue as you might think with 3D terrain. In my mind, it's certainly no different than dealing with the same problem in a close fight on a battle map. Trying to use some of WotC's bugbear or gnoll miniatures on a regular battlemap in a crowded hand-to-hand fight is always a challenge but easily resolved by rotating the mini, using a smaller mini, or just making a mental note of which square the minis actually occupy.
The thing about World Works products is that they are modular which makes them re-usable for use in other games and the terrain works well with other 3D sets from not only World Works but other companies (although, IMHO World Works products have the highest quality and no, I have not been paid to say that).
The important thing is to purchase 3D terrain which is re-usable or very impressive as a one-shot set piece for use in a big boss fight. It really does add something extra to the gaming table.
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Virtual Tabletops man. Virtual Tabletops.
They solve all of your printing issues.
They solve all of your scaling issues.
They solve all of your miniatures issues.
They even solve your long-distance player & gas issues (though I play with everyone at the table).For my game table, I run my laptop, an ASUS 900 EEEPC (the dinky one for $400), and a monitor. Most groups have access to 2 lappys. The software I use costs $30 and I only need one license.
We are currently going through Rise of the Runelords, converted to 4E (thanks Scott!) and using some of my maps and scans from the modules. No minis, no hand-drawn maps, infinite scaling (I doubled the dimensions of Thistletop), and faster game play. Even better, the images we can use for the game and "minis" are wonderful and just a Google search away.
Do you guys play face-to-face? What is the software you are using? I currently have Fantasy Grounds II, but I haven't really been able to game with it yet due to not having a laptop and gaming at other peoples houses.
Also your link had an extra 'h' in it, I corrected it in my post here.|
Creative Director
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Virtual Tabletops man. Virtual Tabletops.
They solve all of your printing issues.
They solve all of your scaling issues.
They solve all of your miniatures issues.
They even solve your long-distance player & gas issues (though I play with everyone at the table).For my game table, I run my laptop, an ASUS 900 EEEPC (the dinky one for $400), and a monitor. Most groups have access to 2 lappys. The software I use costs $30 and I only need one license.
We are currently going through Rise of the Runelords, converted to 4E (thanks Scott!) and using some of my maps and scans from the modules. No minis, no hand-drawn maps, infinite scaling (I doubled the dimensions of Thistletop), and faster game play. Even better, the images we can use for the game and "minis" are wonderful and just a Google search away.
Do you really need high resolution images beyond what's already in most adventures, though, for a virtual table top? As in: wouldn't the maps in the PDF version be enough?
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Do you really need high resolution images beyond what's already in most adventures, though, for a virtual table top? As in: wouldn't the maps in the PDF version be enough?
Glad you asked that, Mr. Jacobs. Those screenshots should provide your answer. They are scans taken from the printed module of Burnt Offerings, and even blown up to play on, they don't look too bad! So no, you don't need that high of resolution, but a bit higher would be pretty easy to accomplish and much appreciated. :)
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Do you guys play face-to-face? What is the software you are using? I currently have Fantasy Grounds II, but I haven't really been able to game with it yet due to not having a laptop and gaming at other peoples houses.
Also your link had an extra 'h' in it, I corrected it in my post here.
Yes, we all play at the regular game table. We use our character sheets (more for easy reference), 2 players use their dice - the others use the software. We just upgraded to a projector, but a monitor is fine for most groups. We also use my powercards: 4E Powercards.
The software I use is d20pro: www.d20pro.com. Disclosure: I work on d20pro in my spare time. It handles attacks, initiative, hit points (notice the red on the portraits), and tracks numerical effects and does all the math. At them same time, you can scale back any of the features if desired. Anyhoo, I used to be just a customer but I liked it enough to start working with them. There's a 30-day fuly functional trial and an online manual, so give it a spin if interested. I can also host a demo game if you want.
Thanks again for the link correction:
4E RotR Gallery
My group would love a chance to get something like this, printed format, or I print it out... don't care. It would save me some time from doing it myself.
Ditto what Neuanda said.
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Re: d20pro - This looks awesome!
Not all of my players own laptops, but those that do often bring them to the game with their character sheets, view PDFs or connect to d20srd.org or write notes during the game.
I still like my battlemats and miniatures on the table, and I wonder whether using a Notebook at the table will speed up play, or slow it down? But maybe I can use a combo of laptop + battlemats and miniatures? Those with a laptop can view the scene on their lap, those without can view on the table, or a second flat-screen monitor facing the players.
I'll have to give the trial a go, and explore it for myself.
I've had a quick look through the website, and it appears the software works for both 3.5 and 4th Edition games? The program has the capability of storing monster stats, but you have to enter them in yourself?
Might Paizo evaluate this software for possible support, like they do RPG Explorer?
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Chief Technical Officer
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Might Paizo evaluate this software for possible support, like they do RPG Explorer?
First of all, I'd like to make it clear that while we allowed RPGXplorer to provide support for Pathfinder materials in their product, and we do sell their products in our store, we don't have anything else to do with their product, and we don't particularly endorse it over any other package out there.
The d20pro guys did show us their stuff, and there's certainly some potential there. I can't really say any more than that right now, though.
While that's something that I'm trying to impress upon my authors to keep in mind for some dungeons... sometimes, the point is to have a cramped dungeon. Particularly in the case where you're fighting goblins or kobolds, or particularly in the case where you're going for a more realistic feel for a cramped underground region. It's a balancing act to have big open areas and realistic areas, but I'm unwilling to throw realism completely out the window just for the sake of making things simple on the PCs.1) I'm running the Pathfinder adventures in 4E, and I end up scaling up most encounter areas by 150% to 200%. Battlemaps at the original scale would likely be too cramped for 4E-style multi-foe scenarios.It's not just a 4E thing. Rooms in Pathfinder are cramped, particularly if you have a larger party. I find myself scaling up the rooms on the fly just to give both sides some room to maneuver.
I agree with James here, a good example is the Misgivings as it is a home. To have every hallway be 20' wide or EVERY room be 50' x 50' would be rediculous even in a mansion. Sometimes it makes sense for a place to be small. That being said I do agree that too many dungeons are too small and find that any room that houses 4 or more creatures of medium size is 90% likeley to be realistically too small for them to have combat with 4 more medium creatures there. You just wouldn't have room. But back to the major point here, I would like cool looking battlemaps but I agree after much looking into it that they would be way too big too often to work. I used the posterazor trick talked about on here to make maps that were prinatble at 1" scale abnd it worked BUT those maps came out blury if they were big maps to start with, and One I did was from The City of The Spider Queen adventure and it was HUGE, ended up being like 950 pages to get it to minis scale, and if I trimmed it and got rid of ALL excess borders and things it was still in the 700s. To me that was rediculous and I instead decided to just draw them on my handy Paizo flip mat that has been like my best friend, and just move on. Sure a good pre made goes a long way as far as maps, and Paizo's flip masts do fill alot of those for us already, and as soon as I get the capitol I intend to buy as many of the line I can feasibly. And if they keep making then then one day we may not need to many more new maps!
Let me throw my two cents in.
A long time a go I loved my battle map, unroll it thrown down some drawing and put on the minis (that fall over sometimes)
Then I upgraded to tact-tiles (dry erase) wow I thought they were the greatest.
Then I was introduced to VTT. Oh my goodness, the speed of my games increased by a metric butt ton! It sped up gameplay a lot, so I started using it for when I ran The Cheese Grinder.
I use D20pro too, and same as Tintegal I started working for them to improve the software (I am a code toad). Well now it is all I use.
My group 1 laptop for the DM 1 for the players and an extra flat panel screen for the other side of the table.
As for entering data, d20pro now has 80% of the 3.5 monsters from the SRD already inputed!!! talk about a time saver.
My group 1 laptop for the DM 1 for the players and an extra flat panel screen for the other side of the table.
As for entering data, d20pro now has 80% of the 3.5 monsters from the SRD already inputed!!! talk about a time saver.
The software I use is d20pro: It handles attacks, initiative, hit points (notice the red on the portraits), and tracks numerical effects and does all the math.
So do you guys figure that the prep time for the d20pro method is less than paper DM notes, printing out maps, & figures?
My friend has a 50" flat screen networked to his computer. I can imagine the players sitting at the couch looking at the big screen while the DM sits at the nearby desk and drives the action from a PC.
But my friend also has hundreds and hundreds of minis. Not sure if the group will want to give all that up...
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So do you guys figure that the prep time for the d20pro method is less than paper DM notes, printing out maps, & figures?
My friend has a 50" flat screen networked to his computer. I can imagine the players sitting at the couch looking at the big screen while the DM sits at the nearby desk and drives the action from a PC.
But my friend also has hundreds and hundreds of minis. Not sure if the group will want to give all that up...
Prep time is about the same overall, BUT it's digital, so you can share your materials with others and even create a wiki or some other community system. The added benefits of seeing hp onscreen and being able to use as many creatures as you want (not limited by minis) is nice - your characters look like you want them to - just find a jpg online. This is true for any digital product though, regardless of what VT you use.
I don't want to hijack this thread, and don't mean to promote a product here - maybe we should start a new thread for that. Let's get back to talking about the OP... heh.
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It won't cover all the maps for each adventure, but just one per adventure. At this point, there are no plans to go back to make maps of other Adventure Paths.
ok.. I am going back to this statement...
are you sure about that?...
this is not the impression I get from reading the description..
In the adverdisment it states this..
Pathfinder Terrain will detail key encounter areas from the Legacy of Fire Pathfinder Adventure Path, with a terrain kit for each adventure.
the picture shows 9 encouter maps...
by one map do you mean you are taking 1 map and they will are making these from key encounters from that map?
next question how close will these be released to the release of the APs?
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Chief Technical Officer
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In the adverdisment it states this..Pathfinder Terrain will detail key encounter areas from the Legacy of Fire Pathfinder Adventure Path, with a terrain kit for each adventure.
the picture shows 9 encouter maps...
by one map do you mean you are taking 1 map and they will are making these from key encounters from that map?
next question how close will these be released to the release of the APs?
The nine sections in the picture form one large area. (Does that make sense?)
So they'll be doing one large area for each volume, and with luck, each set will be available at just about the same time as we release the corresponding volume.
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So they'll be doing one large area for each volume, and with luck, each set will be available at just about the same time as we release the corresponding volume.
Actually..if we are talking about your luck.... then they will be delayed from China... then stopped at customs for 4 weeks... ;-)
Edit: Yes I know it is a PDF...
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Creative Director
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ok.. I am going back to this statement...
are you sure about that?...
this is not the impression I get from reading the description..
In the adverdisment it states this..
Pathfinder Terrain will detail key encounter areas from the Legacy of Fire Pathfinder Adventure Path, with a terrain kit for each adventure.
the picture shows 9 encouter maps...
by one map do you mean you are taking 1 map and they will are making these from key encounters from that map?
next question how close will these be released to the release of the APs?
Correct; the nine areas shown are all from the same dungeon. By "one map per adventure," I mean one dungeon or building or location. We can cram an awful lot of encounter areas into a single map. For the most part, though, the WorldWorks maps will be focusing on maps with 5 to 10 encounter areas.
The hope and goal is to get each adventure's map released at about the same time that the corresponding adventure hits store shelves, I believe.
Dragonmoon,
you sound like someone who is on the fence with this product. Maybe I can help you decide to give the product a try with a testimonial.
I've used worldworks products on and off for my SCAP campaign. Each time I set up an encounter area the players get a lot more creative. For example, they use terrain features (such as furniture, ledges and stairs) to overcome foes and have a great time admiring the models.
Putting together a piece is a bit of work and requires an additional investment in terms of ink and cardstock paper as well as a decent exacto-knife, ruler and cutting mat.
Building something like the Sea Wyvern (The Maiden of the High Seas) took me about 20 hours. I think something like the Ruined Undercrypt of Kelmarane should take me arround 4 hours to construct.
If you want to make up your mind, you could try one of the worldworks free promo kits (available form their site) and see if it suits you.
Hope this helps.
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Dragonmoon,
you sound like someone who is on the fence with this product. Maybe I can help you decide to give the product a try with a testimonial.
I've used worldworks products on and off for my SCAP campaign. Each time I set up an encounter area the players get a lot more creative. For example, they use terrain features (such as furniture, ledges and stairs) to overcome foes and have a great time admiring the models.
Putting together a piece is a bit of work and requires an additional investment in terms of ink and cardstock paper as well as a decent exacto-knife, ruler and cutting mat.
Building something like the Sea Wyvern (The Maiden of the High Seas) took me about 20 hours. I think something like the Ruined Undercrypt of Kelmarane should take me arround 4 hours to construct.If you want to make up your mind, you could try one of the worldworks free promo kits (available form their site) and see if it suits you.
Hope this helps.
I second this entire post. My PCs act differently when I toss down 3D terrain and WorldWorks is really good stuff. I also made the Maiden of the High Seas for my Savage Tide game and I have to say, pulling out a to-scale, 3 masted ship with rigging, sails, and fully outfitted lower decks complete with hammocks, was an awesome highlight to the campaign. A well-made 3D piece of terrain with all the little accessories is so cool to have on the table.
Not to try to steal thunder but I use Worldworks stuff a lot, and also Castlemolds, and some cardstock terrain from Fat Dragon games, but I also create my own sometimes if a multi-level room is needed. There was a cool room in Savage Tide, in the Shrine of Demogorgon, that was multi-leveled and a little confusing as a flat map. I printed the map twice, cut out the upper level and mounted both levels on poster board, with pillars holding the upper level above the lower and that was a really cool combat with the characters changing levels frequently and working for cover, etc.3D terrain just plain rocks and WorldWorks makes some great terrain.
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Well paizo has mentioned in a couple of places that adding full scale maps would drastically increase the cost of putting out an issue of pathfinder.
This would mean a) cutting other content (the wonderful support articles and shortening the adventures) or b) raising the cover price.
Doing either would likely result in fewer customers purchasing the APs. This means having to print fewer copies per print run, which raises the per unit price again.
WOTC has a much much larger customer base. It can afford larger print runs which means a much lower per unit price.
Also, I haven't looked at the WOTC adventures but, do they have the same amount of content and support articles, or was that sort of backstory / fluff cut?
I don't purchase 4E, but would be curious how many maps we're talking about in the WotC products? Typical adventures are more like modules, not the APs, which are worth several modules plus the goodness of the Beastiary, Articles and Pathfinder Journal at the back.
I would guess, based on no data, that there is less stuff, therefore they can afford to divert monies to the battlemats.
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Creative Director
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I hate to be the one to yank this back up to the top of the message boards, but I was looking through the 4e adventures I have in .pdf and I can't help but comment.
I own all of the released 4e adventures (even though I don't play in a 4e group, all Pathfinder, here) and I was surprised to notice that EVERY SINGLE adventure has all of the maps where encounters take place printed out in full 1x1 inch scale in the back of the adventure. Anyone else notice this?
So I guess my question is, why can WotC do this, but Paizo, which I believe to be a much better company, can't? What does WotC have that Paizo doesn't, and how can we help!?!
I think it would be perfect to have at least the locations where encounters are supposed to take place in, scaled and included in the back of the Pathfinder adventures, like WotC does. Even if it does cost us a little bit more.
Am I right, or off in left field, here?
You'll also note that 4E WotC adventures and products generally have a LOT less art than Paizo products. The money to produce big battlemats has to come from somewhere, and for WotC it looks to me that they choose to not purchase and print nearly as much art. Personally... I think that makes the product look kind of dull. I much prefer to have illustrations of cool locations, NPCs, and events that happen in the adventure.
Another reason too is that WotC has MUCH deeper pockets than Paizo does.
Another reason is that doing battlemaps for every encounter limits design. I'd rather not limit the creativity of the designer of an adventure by telling him "All of your encounters have to fit within 1,500 square feet" or something like that.
ANOTHER reason is price. You'll note that a Pathfinder AP is 20 bucks, and gives you more adventure content than a 4E adventure, which runs you 25 bucks. Even if the two products cost the same, you'd get more adventure and content from a volume of Pathfinder than a big battlemat-enabled 4E adventure. (Correct me if I'm wrong anyone... I don't have a 4E adventure handy to compare page counts and encounters to be 100% sure on this one...)
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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ANOTHER reason is economies of scale. A really great-selling Paizo product will sell in numbers that would get an entire line canceled without a second thought at Wizards of the coast. When we base our printing costs on 10,000 units and they base theirs on 60,000 units or more, we're living in different worlds.
They can spread out the cost of bigger maps over a much larger number of sales thanks to their brand and distribution advantages.
They are just a bigger company than we are, and they have a lot more money to spend. Sometimes that money is spent on interactive tabletops and character visualizers, and sometimes it's spent on providing miniatures-scale maps in their books.
As some of the guys from Paizo have alluded to, the problem with the WOTC adventures that have the maps to mini scale is that it also gives the impression that the given encounter has to occur in the "encounter zone."
Not entirely unlike the LFR games I've seen, it kind of feels like the adventures are set up with "here are some story elements, now that's done, now here is the encounter zone."
I play in a 4E game, and its a lot of fun, but the DM doesn't use the premade adventures, and in fact has been using Paizo's map packs for a lot of the areas he comes up with. It feels much more organic to me in this way.
I'd love to have minis scale maps for every possible area in a given adventure, but I just don't think is feasible unless you go out of your way to really limit where combat can occur within an adventure.
I hate to be the one to yank this back up to the top of the message boards, but I was looking through the 4e adventures I have in .pdf and I can't help but comment.
I own all of the released 4e adventures (even though I don't play in a 4e group, all Pathfinder, here) and I was surprised to notice that EVERY SINGLE adventure has all of the maps where encounters take place printed out in full 1x1 inch scale in the back of the adventure. Anyone else notice this?
So I guess my question is, why can WotC do this, but Paizo, which I believe to be a much better company, can't? What does WotC have that Paizo doesn't, and how can we help!?!
I think it would be perfect to have at least the locations where encounters are supposed to take place in, scaled and included in the back of the Pathfinder adventures, like WotC does. Even if it does cost us a little bit more.
Am I right, or off in left field, here?
You'll also note that 4E WotC adventures and products generally have a LOT less art than Paizo products. The money to produce big battlemats has to come from somewhere, and for WotC it looks to me that they choose to not purchase and print nearly as much art. Personally... I think that makes the product look kind of dull. I much prefer to have illustrations of cool locations, NPCs, and events that happen in the adventure.
Another reason too is that WotC has MUCH deeper pockets than Paizo does.
Another reason is that doing battlemaps for every encounter limits design. I'd rather not limit the creativity of the designer of an adventure by telling him "All of your encounters have to fit within 1,500 square feet" or something like that.
ANOTHER reason is price. You'll note that a Pathfinder AP is 20 bucks, and gives you more adventure content than a 4E adventure, which runs you 25 bucks. Even if the two products cost the same, you'd get more adventure and content from a volume of Pathfinder than a big battlemat-enabled 4E adventure. (Correct me if I'm wrong anyone... I don't...
Looking at Demon Queen's Enclave:
A dozen 1/2 page art pieces gobbling up 6 pages; 5 pages of intro fluff; 2 pages of item stats; 17 pages of stuff (including more bits of art and a few maps) and 63 pages detailing the 31 tactical encounters for total page count of 93, not counting the 30" x 21" battle map, folded and a (flimsy) two-pocket jacket. MSRP $24.95
Looking at Pathfinder #17:
[nominal page count of 92] 2 pages iconic stat blocks; 7 pages miscellaneous; 12 pages Bestiary; 6 pages Pathfinder journal entry; 57 pages primary adventure (including maps and artwork); 8 pages stand-alone adventure (including maps and artwork). MSRP $19.95
This does not account the aforementioned economies of scale of course.
ANOTHER reason is economies of scale...They are just a bigger company than we are, and they have a lot more money to spend.
Then the solution is clear: Follow the Crimson Permanence Assurance plan.
Oh, and HAHA, on the Life of Brian clip...
The Meaning of Life, man, The Meaning of Life!!
*shakes head*
Kids today...
;-)
Cheers,
Colin
Oh, and HAHA, on the Life of Brian clip...The Meaning of Life, man, The Meaning of Life!!
*shakes head*
Kids today...
;-)
Cheers,
Colin
LoL
I was kind of hoping for something else...