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lets see what a MAXED OUT 17th level Fighter has to offer. Lets assume he rolled an 18 for strength at 1st level and bumped it at every opportunity to a 22 strength. With attacks of +17/+12/+7/+2, a +6 Strength Bonus, a +5 Magic Weapon, Greater Weapon Focus, and +4 from Weapon Training (Pathfinder's Fighter version), his attacks will be +34/+29/+24/+19. A maxed out fighter will have to roll 17/20/20/20 to hit Vashkar's 51 AC. He'll be lucky to hit once per round, and Vashkar's got 310 HP.
That's not nearly maxed out, let alone MAXED OUT. For one thing, it's doable for a character to start with a 20 in one stat. Then, add in a belt of strength +6. Then add haste, bless, enlarge person, inspire courage +4... that's hardly MAXED OUT (there are the inherent bonus books, other buff spells, flanking, etc), but it puts him at +11 to hit over your example, which means his attacks are at +45/40/35/30, meaning he needs 5/10/15/20 to hit. Those are entirely reasonable numbers.
I have to chime in on the high AC issue.
His AC isn't ridiculously high. First, it is so high, in part, because of some spells he cast to enhance his AC.
He's Caster Level 10. For a party of 17th level characters, all they need to do is target him with a greater dispel magic and his AC drops several points (and there goes his pointless Contingency spell). Caster Level 10 is laughably useless against a party of 17th level characters.
Then his AC isn't that much of an issue for the heavy hitters. I mean, its still high, but its doable.
Also, most parties of 17th level characters are going to have spells or items to enhance their own combat abilities and this guy can't really do anything about them. He can't dispel all their buffs, and can't waste his actions counterspelling them (but a party of 4 or 5 PCs sure as hell can afford to have one on counterspell duty against a lone archvillain caster).
A party of 17th level characters probably wouldn't have too much trouble taking his guy down if they had a single-classed wizard and cleric in their party, plus a fighter (to benefit from all their buff spells) to melee the crap out of him. Add in a bard and another cleric or druid and you'll take this guy down before you can say "Level Up". He's a reasonable challenge for his CR -- which is to say, a party of reasonably optimized characters 3 levels lower could take him down handily, using up a good chunk of their resources.
In my experience, Final Challenge villains don't usually do well by themselves. They need an entourage or a couple of "helpers" to be a proper challenge against the PCs. Let the PCs be level 20, and add 4 level 18 NPC Bodyguards to this guy, and he'll be a much bigger challenge to them.
By himself though, even with his 50 AC, any reasonably balanced party of level 17 characters will take him down 9.9 times out of 10.
I'd like to note that having the Ring of Counterspells with Dispel Magic is clever, but at this CR, he's just going to be hit by Greater Dispel Magic spells, I can't imagine most parties would bother using a lower level version against a formidable enemy.
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Don't forget his ability to use vital strike, which bumps him up to 6d6+11 damage. (I did.) He's not THAT bad in melee.
And as far as his AC, don't forget that +8 comes from shield and mage armor, easily dispelled after you get past the ring. So we're really dealing with AC 42 here.
And casters will need to beat caster level check DC 25 to get through his nondetection: at level 17, they'll have about a 60% success rate.
Hmm, I did forget about the vital strike. The problem with his AC is, even dispelled, it isn't low, and then you stil have some pretty impressive damage reduction to punch through. I think that players could end up feeling annoyed at Vashkar's ludicrous SR, strong AC and two different types of damage reduction. His hit points are pretty good, too.
Maybe it's just my experience, but I tend to notice players enjoying high-level fights when they can feel like they're actually making progress; i.e., hitting and damaging the opponent, successfully casting spells on them, and so on. With big monster enemies, this is often an illusion; they might have twice Vashkar's hp, and could be just as hard to kill. But it makes the players feel like they're actually doing something. High-level enemies like Vashkar tend to provoke the most irritation; your wizard finds out they might as well go and get a sandwich, your cleric goes on emergency heal-bot duty, and your fighter finally manage to get in a few good licks only to find he's losing 10 or 15 damage and on top of that, Vashkar's fast healing.
First off, even if it were true that the wizard and the cleric had nothing to do in such a battle, it would be a great villain that made the high level fighter essential to a combat, rather than pounding the weak save.
But they do have stuff to do. They always do. That's why one plays a cleric or a wizard.
My cleric has nothing to do but heal: go CoDzilla! Divine Power, Cloak of Chaos, Righteous Might equals (+5 luck bonus to attacks and damage, size large, +4 size bonus STR, STR increases by another 8 due to size change, defensive bonuses like natural armor, deflection, SR, resistance bonuses, and added HP). Heck, you can just start turning and trying to do damage to him that way, or hope that your Disrupting Weapon gets through just one time against his will save.
Wizard: Shapechange into WiZilla!; time stop plus multiple battlefield control spells="Dodge this!"; fun with readied actions and gates; greater shout; dimensional locks; and the nasty Trap the Soul.
And, you know what? The entry does list a lover: a succubus blackguard. Think that she might keep the cleric and the wizard busy too? She's either a previous encounter that lets these two shine or in this encounter.
There's something for everyone.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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Steven, to me, Vashkar presents a long, satisfying drawn out fight to end a campaign.
Well...I'm not with you on that.
First, he's not CR 17, he's CR 20, if you buy the associated class gig. I feel like my reasoning on that is pretty sound, so I'm still looking at him as CR 24 (maybe 22 in Pathfinder). The 17th level fighter taking 65 points of damage and 2 negative levels in a round is pretty unpleasant, and that assumes no other buffing, like fire shield, displacement or more. 65 points isn't a lot, but it might be a massive damage save every round, and I certainly think the rakshasa has better DR.
The character really should have access to 6th level spells. Does anyone reading this guy doubt he'd take transformation?
9th level spells don't help much - he's got an SR of 40. A 20th level caster with Improved Spell Penetration has a 25% chance to affect him with spells at all.
Death ward is one of those spells. If your party is casting it on every member when they smell undead, you adapt to it. Dispelling screens,reciprocal gyr, and other elements of the expanded game balance out those low-level spells that crimp an entire type of adventure. And that's if they know he's a vampire.
Conversely, a 20th level fighter might have a +39 to hit (+20base+8ability+5enhance+2focus+2morale+2other), with 2 attacks at his highest bonus and no power attack, that's maybe 50% hit ratio for those two, and down a lot from there, for maybe 30/35 points of damage (2d6+20arbitrary+5elemental+8bane-10/15 for DR). The fighter is on pretty fair footing if he doesn't take negative levels and if the rakshasa is not allowed to focus on him.
Finally, the rules might not mention monk as an associated or nonassociated class. But my point was that you have to consider all features of an encounter together when determining those things. Maybe monk isn't that great for a succubus. But for a rakshasa or planetar, it's pretty sweet. And monk is clearly an associated class for any vampire of any sort, combining fantastic ability scores, strong saves and six or eight bonus feats.
I like a lot about this guy, but the decisions are out of whack for the CR.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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That's not nearly maxed out, let alone MAXED OUT. For one thing, it's doable for a character to start with a 20 in one stat. Then, add in a belt of strength +6. Then add haste, bless, enlarge person, inspire courage +4... that's hardly MAXED OUT (there are the inherent bonus books, other buff spells, flanking, etc), but it puts him at +11 to hit over your example, which means his attacks are at +45/40/35/30, meaning he needs 5/10/15/20 to hit. Those are entirely reasonable numbers.
I agree you have to consider how the players build characters,and not the iconics or whatnot. But I don't think hitting on a 5 is that likely. You have two morale bonuses in your example, which don't stack, and you assume the presence of a bard. We could easily build a party to defeat him, but then the DM could easily build a defense against a party he knows well. I think what determines good game design is being careful with what a party HAS TO HAVE to beat an encounter. With this guy, a versatile fighter that didn't focus on the highest to hit and damage possible with one weapon isn't going to hit as reliably. A party without Improved Spell Penetration AND a robe of the archmagi won't consistently affect him with spell. If your party doesn't have a bard (and a LOT of players still think bards suck, for some reason), the party as a whole might have more trouble, but if the party relies on the bard much, you can bet 6 attacks a round directed at him are gonna weaken the whole party in combat.
The rakshasa's buffs might be dispellable, if that is how the party does things, but the villain might not be alone, and he might pummel the dispeller first.
I've know doubt a community of DMs and players here can build the party to smoke pretty much anyone, but is that what good design is? Or is it a design for whomever might buy the adventure and whatever party might be asked to face him?
First, he's not CR 17, he's CR 20,
Never said he was CR 17, just that parties facing him are going to be level 17 or maybe 18. Unclear writing on my part.
...monk is clearly an associated class for any vampire of any sort...
Can't be. It's not listed. And I don't think it's fair to expect a Superstar to go rules-as-intended when everything's on the line. It's certainly fair to bring it up, but I can't go so far as to make it a voting issue. YMMV.
I'm also not sure that you can apply associated classes to a template. Can you give me an example of a product that has applied these rules to a template? For example: a straight vampire monk would have one CR while a vampire fighter would have another CR, despite having identical templates and class levels. I don't see that anywhere in the rules.
It's clear that we disagree on what a fair fight is at the very highest levels of the game. If the fighter's doing damage every round, and the wizard's pumping out 1-2 spells/round (at 25% effectiveness) and the cleric's gone CoDzilla and/or pumping out positive energy bursts... well, that's a fair fight to me. Everybody's contributing and everybody's nervous.
And if the wizard's being a good team player and devoting a round to buffing other players... well, getting to see how the cleric and bard lives is good for him. It builds character.
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Conversely, a 20th level fighter might have a +39 to hit (+20base+8ability+5enhance+2focus+2morale+2other)
You're missing the +4 to hit from the Fighter's Weapon Training class feature. That puts you at +43, which is only 2 off my estimate.
I agree you have to consider how the players build characters,and not the iconics or whatnot. But I don't think hitting on a 5 is that likely. You have two morale bonuses in your example, which don't stack, and you assume the presence of a bard.
You're right about the morale bonuses, but I only "assumed" the bard because it was quick and not easily dispellable (sure, you could kill the bard, but even then the performance's effects last for another 5 rounds which is more than enough time). That +4 is easily replaceable. Prayer, greater invisibility (for making him flat-footed, which drops his AC by a whopping 7), dispel magic (drops his AC by 8) etc. Hell, just greater invisibility coupled with greater dispel magic means the fighter hits as at +43/38/33/28 vs AC 35, meaning he has "don't roll a 1" for his first three attacks. And Vashkar has absolutely nothing he can do against either of those spells, both of which are the next best thing to be guaranteed available to any party.
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That +4 is easily replaceable. Prayer, greater invisibility (for making him flat-footed, which drops his AC by a whopping 7), dispel magic (drops his AC by 8) etc. Hell, just greater invisibility coupled with greater dispel magic means the fighter hits as at +43/38/33/28 vs AC 35, meaning he has "don't roll a 1" for his first three attacks. And Vashkar has absolutely nothing he can do against either of those spells, both of which are the next best thing to be guaranteed available to any party.
Vashkar has Blind-Fight. He doesn't lose his Dex against invisible opponents.
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He does if they're attacking from range.
So now we have invisible archers with full base attack in the mix? This is starting to sound like something of a tailored adventuring party.
I'm basically assuming a generic 4-man party fighting Vashkar; 1 cleric, 1 wizard, 1 rogue, 1 fighter. The rogue very well may be playing the invisible archer card, but his attack bonus is considerably worse than that of a fighter.
Steven, to me, Vashkar presents a long, satisfying drawn out fight to end a campaign.Well...I'm not with you on that.
First, he's not CR 17, he's CR 20, if you buy the associated class gig. I feel like my reasoning on that is pretty sound, so I'm still looking at him as CR 24 (maybe 22 in Pathfinder).
Steven, do you have Crimson Throne? Because that's what the CR is being based on here ... I don't want to post the specific info here, since a lot of folks are still running that adventure, but if you get a chance to check that adventure out, you'll see he's following Paizo's lead on how to handle a monk on a rakshasa.
As to a monk on a Vampire, that one's got me ... but Vashkar was a rakshasa monk before he became a vampire ... would a new template added onto a pre-existing character change the former CR figuring? I think that's one of those cases where they say it's part science, part art, in figuring things out.
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As to a monk on a Vampire, that one's got me ... but Vashkar was a rakshasa monk before he became a vampire ... would a new template added onto a pre-existing character change the former CR figuring? I think that's one of those cases where they say it's part science, part art, in figuring things out.
Yeah, that's a good question that is not covered anywhere in the "advancing a monster's challenge rating" section in the MM (which is where Associated and Non-Associated Classes come from). With no specific mention of how templates interact with classes with regards to CR, I'd be forced to rely on the CRs of their example templated NPCs and on the templates' CR adjustments. I believe, though I'd have to double-check, that Vashkar meets those standards.
That's not nearly maxed out, let alone MAXED OUT. For one thing, it's doable for a character to start with a 20 in one stat. Then, add in a belt of strength +6. Then add haste, bless, enlarge person, inspire courage +4... that's hardly MAXED OUT (there are the inherent bonus books, other buff spells, flanking, etc), but it puts him at +11 to hit over your example, which means his attacks are at +45/40/35/30, meaning he needs 5/10/15/20 to hit. Those are entirely reasonable numbers.
*grin* I just KNEW that someone was going to bring up a 1/2 orc, so I'll concede the 20 strength. Even if a 1/2 orc is more likely to choose Barbarian over Fighter due to the new Pathfinder features for favored classes. Also, I'll concede the +6 belt and also say that there are other sources of goodness for melee combatants from the almost countless number of sourcebooks for D20. However, I said I was looking at a maxed out fighter, not a maxed out fighter+cleric+wizard+bard. At best, the fighter won't have those spells and effects on him till round 2 (probably much later). More likely the spellcasters are going to focus on thier on backsides first with defensive buffs for themselves, then try an attack spell or two, THEN buff allies. By then, your fighter is dead.
Also, as Steven said, you have 2 buffs that dont stack. So, the new math looks like this: +38/+33/+28/+23.
That means, a maxed out fighter will have to roll 13/18/20/20. A raging, maxed out barbarian will have to roll 16/20/20/20. A maxed out Paladin will have to roll 18/20/20/20, with a "Smite Evil" of 14+ IF they also have an 18 charisma (EXTREMELY unlikely).
I disagree with your use of the word "reasonable" when referring to those attack numbers. The point I was trying to make is that this is the BEST POSSIBLE scenario. 99.9% of the parties that will encounter Vashkar will be less effective than this ideal. I mean, really, folks. How many PC's will have rolled a natural 18 at creation, AND be a 1/2 orc, AND have chosen Fighter (instead of barbarian or paladin), AND bump strength every time, AND have a +5 weapon, AND have chosen correctly for weapon training the 1st time, AND have Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Focus, AND have a belt of strength +6, AND had Venus on the cusp of Aquarius with Saturn rising...
...You have 8 variables that all have to be exactly right in this example. It just IS NOT going to happen. Not all of it. Not unless your DM is a) Monte Hall or b) Santa Claus. This kind of power gaming doesn't appeal to me. Not as a player or as a DM.
Just take the 1st step, rolling an 18 for an ability score. It's not that likely, even with 4D6 (ignore the lowest). What's the odds on that? If you use the point system, that example Paladin above is never going to have an 18 strength and an 18 charisma. And those buffs from the other PC's that you mentioned will come too late for the fighter to make use of them. He'll already be dead.
If you still think his AC is acceptable, then intead of comparing it to the attack value of a hypothetical PC (which I think is the best way) compare it to the AC of other monsters with HIGHER CR's. From the 3rd ed MM (results may vary for 3.5):
Titan, CR21: AC 22, 210 HP
Great Wyrm Brass Dragon, CR22: AC 42, 536 HP
Great Wyrm Green Dragon, CR23: AC 43, 551 HP
Great Wyrm Blue Dragon, CR24: AC 44, 565 HP
Great Wyrm Red Dragon, CR25: AC 41, 660 HP
In fact, I cant find a single example of a printed "official" monster with a higher AC. I'm sorry, but the more I think about it, the more this AC bothers me. It actually bothers me more than the improper use of the vampire template. But then again, his AC is so high BECAUSE of the improper use of the vampire template.
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*grin* I just KNEW that someone was going to bring up a 1/2 orc, so I'll concede the 20 strength.
Half-orc, human, OR half-elf, you mean? H-Os get the automatic +2 strength, yes, but humans and half-elves can choose a single +2 as well, which can be strength.
However, I said I was looking at a maxed out fighter, not a maxed out fighter+cleric+wizard+bard. At best, the fighter won't have those spells and effects on him till round 2 (probably much later). More likely the spellcasters are going to focus on thier on backsides first with defensive buffs for themselves, then try an attack spell or two, THEN buff allies. By then, your fighter is dead.
Vashkar isn't an ambusher. His Stealth score is reasonable, but not exceptional, for a CR 20, and he has no means of going invisible or of teleporting. In other words, the party will have time to prepare the longer-duration buffs, and short-duration buffs are generally party-wide.
And, again, a simple dispel magic (or greater version) will strip 8 AC from Vashkar - something he has no response to except to re-cast mage armor and shield, wasting two rounds in the process. And don't say "every party won't have a dispel available!" because every single spellcaster in the game has access to dispels! Level 17+ parties with no spellcasters are doomed to fail anyway.
Hmm. Browsing over the stat block I came across this in the new bloodline:
...Terrifying Howl (Su): At 15th level, you can unleash a frenzied scream, as a greater shout spell, except that those who fail their Fortitude saves are also shaken for a number of rounds equal to half your caster level....I'm a little concerned since Eric makes no mention of whether this power is at will or a limited number of times per day, and a greater shout at will (8th level Sorcerer/Wizard spell) seems a little overpowered to me.
How's it compare to other bloodline powers at that level?
His Stealth score is reasonable, but not exceptional, for a CR 20, and ... he has no means of going invisible or of teleporting.
Uh... it's his fifth level spell. He can teleport five times/day. He can also stealth via disguise as an animal via beast shape, alternate form, or change shape. Gaseous form can be inconspicuous under the right circumstances.
I mean, really, folks. How many PC's will have rolled a...
OT: You roll your stats? How old school! Neat.
Great Wyrm Brass Dragon, CR22: AC 42, 536 HP
Great Wyrm Green Dragon, CR23: AC 43, 551 HP
Great Wyrm Blue Dragon, CR24: AC 44, 565 HP
Great Wyrm Red Dragon, CR25: AC 41, 660 HP
What's the Brass Great Wyrm's damage output again? Breath weapon 12d6 (Refl 37) every 1-4 rounds. In the meantime, there's the attacks at +46 for 4d6+13, 2d8+6, 2d8+6, 2d6+6, 2d6+6, and 2d8+19. And don't even get me started on the grappling. Then there's Sorcerer level 19th...
And none of this is with a buff or a magic item from its hoard.
Saying that Vashkar compares to a great wyrm dragon because of AC, while ignoring the vast disparity in HP, damage output, and spells is just not convincing to me.
Yes, Vashkar's good at defense. But I feel like you're obsessing about this issue.
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His Stealth score is reasonable, but not exceptional, for a CR 20, and ... he has no means of going invisible or of teleporting.Uh... it's his fifth level spell. He can teleport five times/day. He can also stealth via disguise as an animal via beast shape, alternate form, or change shape. Gaseous form can be inconspicuous under the right circumstances.
Wow, how'd I miss that teleport? He's still not written as an ambusher, though. He's the spider at the center of the web.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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Lest I be misunderstood....
There's no question 6 Steves or 6 Rougerogues or 6 most-of-the-rest-of-us can't put this villain in his place with some planning and teamwork. What I consider poor taste in the design is the failure to account for other players. Not every party is 6 Steves, etc. And what I have been critical of is what you have to have to get into this guy's koolaid. Not what you might have, but what you must have.
At CR 24, players might have different options and this might be a fight that consumes 20-25% of the party's resources. At CR 20, you have to have every buff we've listed, maybe a luck bonus somewhere, he has to be alone, and you have to start greater dispel, sing, etc.
Other responses: I have not read CotCT. It sounds good, but I don't get to buy gaming stuff I am not readily using at the time. I appreciate the heads up about where I could find some of this material, though.
I have never read associated classes as a list of classes that are or are not associated. I compare a monster with a class, and the amount of salivating I do when I can add them together gives me my answer. Sorcerer is nonassociated for a fire giant. Can you say a level of monk adds so little to the rakshasa?
I acknowledge there's really no such thing as an 'associated c;ass' fopr templates. Mypoint, again, is you compare the things you are adding together when you make your encounter. It isn't like effective levels for a PC. This guy makes a brief appearance(s), and you are calculating a challenge rating. In this case, monk adds as much to the character's ability as sorcerer does. This is particularly true when you consider the specific template and the maxed out magic items (not every monk has to have a monk's belt - this would have been a great one to skip).
Hey - I want to note a couple of other things briefly. First, I do like the rakshasa. The growth in writing and development as a villain is the best I've seen this round and he currently has my vote.
Second - I'm not saying I have the best design chops, or the ultimate taste in encounters for PCs. I think this talk about balance (the questions about which are being raised by more than just me) is constructive for contestants and casual observers alike. I dig this process and I'm having a great time. I hope everyone else is, too.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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What's the Brass Great Wyrm's damage output again? Breath weapon 12d6 (Refl 37) every 1-4 rounds. In the meantime, there's the attacks at +46 for 4d6+13, 2d8+6, 2d8+6, 2d6+6, 2d6+6, and 2d8+19. And don't even get me started on the grappling. Then there's Sorcerer level 19th...
Hmm....the dragons don't have DR 15/good AND piercing or 10/silver AND magic. Their SR doesn't approach 40, they can be critted, are a higher CR (26 for the 19th level casters), and can't take gaseous form for a planned getaway.
Head to head, the rakshasa puts out more damage, can't be affected by a CR 26 dragon's spells, and won't take any damage from breath weapons (can't remember Ref bonus, though).
I just feel like it's a push..and therefore the rakshasa ought to be a higher CR than presented.
I do agree a good challenge can push members of the party out of their comfort zone and into unusual roles. A good group of players adapts to that well..and often I think that's the difference between survival and a TPK.
Although, if I want you TPK'd, there's nothing you can do. Muhahahahaha.
I think this talk about balance (the questions about which are being raised by more than just me) is constructive for contestants and casual observers alike. I dig this process and I'm having a great time. I hope everyone else is, too.
I've been following every discussion I can in these threads and I would agree. I very much appreciate all the discussion among fellow contestants about one another's entries...as well as the feedback, input, criticism, and insight provided by all the voters (many of whom could have made the Top 32 just as easily, I think).
On the subject of associated vs. non-associated class levels, I'd also like to add that I see it as more of an "art" than a "science." And so, by that, I mean that I'd probably count monk levels for a vampiric rakshasa as an associated class. To me, monks still fall among the "stealthy" classes like rogue and ranger. In fact, the ranger is a fairly good comparison to a monk. Both have Stealth as class skills and they're decent fighters with extra oomph in class abilities. The rakshasa and vampire are both stealthy monsters to me, as well. The rakshasa via deception, guile, and illusion. And the vampire via many of its special abilities and alternate forms.
In addition, I think the monk's rapid saving throw advancement also kicks the rakshasa up a notch higher at something it already excels at as an outsider. Good saves layered on good saves. That becomes extra important when combined with the vampire template and turn resistance. The undead boost in converting Hit Dice to d12's is also important because it increases the combat effectiveness and staying power of the monk class levels.
So, all in all, if I were going to choose between associated or non-associated, I'd have to go with associated. Regardless, though, the stat-block was only one-third of this round's voting criteria. And, even if you're not supposed to mix a vampire template with an outsider, Eric did a phenomenal job of weaving these complex bits and pieces together. His overall concept is very cool. And his new bloodline rules bit is quite good. So, high marks and kudos to him!
For Pathfinder, we’ve reclassified the rakshasa’s CR at 8. (p.35)
He kind of has to CR 8 the Rakshasa: James baldly stated that for Paizo, that's what they were.
Also, the Rakshasa Monk 6 is a CR 12 in that adventure. And the Rakshasa Rogue 10 is a CR 14. Both are using these classes as nonassociated classes.
Hmm....the dragons don't have DR 15/good AND piercing or 10/silver AND magic. Their SR doesn't approach 40, they can be critted, are a higher CR (26 for the 19th level casters), and can't take gaseous form for a planned getaway.
Head to head, the rakshasa puts out more damage, can't be affected by a CR 26 dragon's spells, and won't take any damage from breath weapons (can't remember Ref bonus, though).
I just feel like it's a push..and therefore the rakshasa ought to be a higher CR than presented.
You're comparing apples to oranges: a fully buffed and equipped Vashkar vs. a dragon with no prep spells or items AND ignoring the fact that it has twice the HP damage, can't be hurt by turning, and has access to 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells.
Vashkar and the dragon have the same AC. It's just that Vashkar's cast shield and magic armor and the dragon hasn't yet. The DR and the SR are the only things that Vashkar's better at than a great wyrm brass dragon. I don't see this as a valid comparison at all.
Anyway, we'll agree to disagree on this one. I think we've been pretty clear and polite and made our cases to the best of our ability.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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Anyway, we'll agree to disagree on this one. I think we've been pretty clear and polite and made our cases to the best of our ability.
Entirely correct. It's been a good talk for the contest, and when I maintain it's a push, I mean there are smart comments on both sides.
I might break out the rakshasa and a great wyrm red tomorrow. I'll be sure to buff, allow an encounter distance, and catch the dragon up on feats. If I get time.
Question: Are you a Magic (the Gathering) player?
This character reminds me very much of a character from that game although it's a "She" (Mirri, anyone?).
Anyways, between this and Gulga, I had to take 4 tablets of Tylenol to keep having headaches while reading their stat blocks. I had to continually reread this over and over while referencing the judges and voters posts. Overall, a wonderful reworking of your original idea. Much like the other 3 entries I voted for, you took advantage of this round to carefully and meticulously hone your character. Good job! Hope to see you next round.
Vote: 4 of 4
TL
I might break out the rakshasa and a great wyrm red tomorrow. I'll be sure to buff, allow an encounter distance, and catch the dragon up on feats. If I get time.
I have a friend who wants to run some of these bad boys against an appropriate level party, death match style. I kind of want to run them against each other... You know, like when you were a kid and the DM would end a campaign then have a last session with PvP, last one standing?
I would like to say something constructive.
But, ... I think you win this round. Wow, just wow!
That is all I can say.
Mmmmmmm...succubus blackguards....happy place....
But, as an Undead, would that still matter to him?
Hurmn. I love the new concept, but feel the class mix is a little excessive. Still, if one is after a CR 20 villian, it needs to be suitably epic, and I can definately see the synergy in terms of Elderitch Knight being tacked onto a Rakshaasa.
Worse, the balance is seriously out of whack. I can understand the desire to hype up a CR 20 monster, but this thing, with AC 50 (Which even the most optimised Fighter will honestly struggle to hit), and the ability to obliterate class levels... To be perfectly blunt, it's overpowered. But I can see why you wanted it to be... so in some respects I can forgive this, as long as you didn't, you know, actually use it in an adventure. ;)
Finally, the wall of text is, frankly, blamed squarely on having Monk levels - they're notorious for handing out seven hundred rather incidental bonuses, alas, and there's not much you can do about this without breaking the rules as written.
And yet?
Even with all these complaints, I like the guy. The undead rakshaasa trying to end all reincarnation is a wicked concept, and the beauty of a vampire monk is that when you beat the crap out of them, they keep coming back.
This aspect, I do like. A lot. Despite the mechanical overmojo and the inevitable wall of text that resulted, the writing is tight, the mechanics have only one flaw in them, and other than that... I love it. I'd send it back to get a sanity check, but I love it, all the same.
I'm votin'. :)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Dedicated Voter Season 6
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Apologies if any of this was covered elsewhere, long thread and I do not wish to read it all :)
I was on the fence on this villain last round, but you've made a number of improvements. Good call changing the head - the tiger head is overused, and we've had other options in the game since way back in Dragon #84.
Vampire is over-the-top, and not an appropriate addition for an outsider. But taking chances has its plusses too.
One irritating stat block error - flurry of blows is usable with monk weapons only. His bite does not belong in that attack sequence. Even if you are in the camp that would allow a bite along with a flurry, the flurry's -1 to hit penalty would apply against the bite attack.
A very clean stat block for how complicated the creature is, but still way too long - this would be something like 3.5 pages without art! Cutting the vampire abilities would be a great place to start.
I love the new bloodline. Between that, the general improvement in the villain itself, and the clean if complicated stat block, I'm leaning towards tossing my fourth vote to Vashkar.
Congratulations on making the cut. You weren't in my top 4, but you were certainly in my top 8.
Congrats on making the cut Eric. I admit, your Round 2 didn't grab me, but Vashkar did. Unarmed vampire is always awesome, but the rakshasa AND eldritch knight were what really did it for me. Very nicely done and good luck on the next round.
Congratulations. No Palace of Abundance for you!
VASHKAR, THE FALSE MAHARAJAH CR 20 [CR8 base rakshasa (Escape From Old Korvosa p35), +4.5 monk non-associated levels, +1 fighter, +4 eldritch knight, +2 vampire]
LE Medium Undead (augmented native outsider)
Init +11 [+7 Dex, +4 Imp. Init]; Senses darkvision 60ft.; perception +40 [18 ranks, +7 Wis, +4 feat (alertness), +3 rakshasa class skill, +8 vampire racial]===== Defense =====
AC 50, touch 27, flat-footed 43; (+4 armor, +7 Dex, +10 monk [+2 base monk AC, +1 monk's robe, +7 Wis], +15 natural [+9 rakshasa, +6 vampire], +4 shield)
hp 310 (20d12+180 [Cha +9/HD]); fast healing 5
Fort +18 [+3 cloak, +2 eldritch knight, +2 fighter, +6 monk, +5 rakshasa], Ref +24 [+3 cloak, +7 Dex, +1 eldritch knight, +2 lightning reflexes, +6 monk, +5 rakshasa], Will +22 [+3 cloak, +7 Wis, +1 eldritch knight, +6 monk, +5 rakshasa]; +2 against enchantment
Defensive Abilities contingency, deflect arrows, dodge, evasion, mobility, monk AC bonus, purity of body, slow fall 40ft., snatch arrows 2/day, still mind; DR 15/good and piercing; 10/silver and magic; Immune undead traits, magic missile; Resist cold 10, electricity 10, +4 turn resistance; SR 40 [27 base rakshasa, +13 class levels]===== Offense =====
Spd 60 ft. [40 base, +20 fast movement], climb 20ft. (spider climb)
Melee Unarmed Strike +29 [+3 amulet, +18 BAB, +7 Dex, +1 weapon focus] (3d6+11) plus energy drain [1d10 base, 2d6 w/monk's belt, 3d6 imp. natural attack; +3 amulet, +6 Str, +2 weapon specialization],
Flurry of Blows +28/+28/+23/+18/+13 [as unarmed strike, -1 for flurry] (3d6+11) plus energy drain,
Bite +23 [+3 amulet, +18 BAB, +7 Dex, -5 natural secondary attack] (1d6+6) [+3 amulet, +3 half-Str)
Special Attacks blood drain, children of the night, create spawn, detect thoughts (DC21), dominate (DC24), energy drain, flurry of blows
Spells Known (CL 10th; ranged touch +25 [+18 BAB, +7 Dex])
5th (5/day)-- teleport
4th (6/day)-- beast shape II, fire shield, solid fog
3rd (7/day)-- beast shape I, displacement, haste, nondetection
2nd (8/day)-- acid arrow, glitterdust (DC 21), rage, resist energy, shatter (DC21)
1st (9/day)-- charm person (DC 20), endure elements, mage armor, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, shield
0 (at will)-- arcane mark, bleed (DC19), dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound (DC19), mage hand, message, read magic, touch of fatigue (DC19)
Omfg. Now I know why I switched to 4E!