As an alternative to either Disable Device (PF Beta) or Open Locks (vanilla 3.5), I can certainly see that Craft (Locksmith) would readily enable bypassing locks. It would probably take anywhere from twice as long to ten times as long. On a sliding scale, I'd recommendI have a player who wants to know if he put ranks into Craft:Locksmith and had that as his Profession, would it allow him to pick locks? He is concerned because there is no rogue.
I thought I would check online because there is nothing saying no in the Pathfinder Beta saying no.
Thanks!
- 2 full-rounds for a simple lock
- 5 full-rounds for an average lock
- 10 full-rounds/1 minute for a good lock
- 2 minutes for an amazing lock
A locksmith would require both artisan tools and thieves tools, although they could attempt to bypass the lock with just the artisan tools. This falls under "do not have a set of thieves tools" for the +10 to the lock's DC. I would also suggest that the time required to do so with just the artisan's tools be 10 times the above suggested time frames. Naturally, good light will be required - at least lantern-strength light, preferably at least a sunrod or the equivalent to full daylight. Only those with darkvision could ignore this - but I can see that relying on darkvision would probably impose a -2 circumstance penalty due to being unable to pick up on certain colorations within the metal and other components of the lock mechanisms.
This is being fairly generous - without the right tools and knowledge IRL, it is almost impossible to 'permanently bypass' a deadbolt of any real quality in less than about a half-hour. Lower end entry locks can be disabled and bypassed - note that this is both at the same time - in a few minutes pretty easily, less easily for deadbolts. As a way of comparison, mechanically speaking, entry locks on RL homes are pretty close to universally simple, while deadbolts range from average to amazing. REALLY high-dollar locks of course should ramp up the DCs encountered.
Granted, if you are not concerned about the surrounding door frame, a lock can be bypassed MUCH more easily and quickly with either a crowbar or a hand-held ram... but you won't be able to secure the door behind you without a blocking object or using, say, iron spikes to re-secure the door rather more permanently... and it definitely is not subtle.
Thanks Turin. I told him he could put ranks in DD but he seems bent on Craft. I was thinking of increasing the number of rounds and making it harder for him.
Thanks for the advice on the Artisan's Tools and Thieve's Tools!
Glad to offer what I can. I do something along those lines IRL, so the time estimations are reasonable in game terms. Combined with the requirement for illumination - which isn't unreasonable, since scrolls also have this requirement - it will make the locksmith less-than-optimal. HOWEVER, it is a reasonable use of a skill by a character without trapfinding and Disable Device, so I would encourage it within reason. Oh, and it DEFINITELY requires two hands free to do this activity, just in case their are any doubts, to use the tools. And unless the lock is mysteriously placed so as to permit more than two humanoids to stand adjacent to the lock and view it adequately, aid another actions would be limited to one other character. A bard's inspire competence would come in REAL handy for this kind of check though!
I would suggest that the time increments reduce one step (to a minimum of what the PF Beta rules indicate for the 'grade' of lock) for every 5 full points by which the locksmith beats the lock's effective DC.
Say a 10th level character has 10 ranks, skill focus (+6 due to having 10 ranks in Craft: Locksmith), masterwork artisan AND thieves' tools (+2 non-stackable circumstance bonus) and an ability bonus of +2 (plus a sunrod peaking over his shoulder providing good illumination) totaling a +20 Locksmith bonus. Presuming a die roll of 10 for a total of 30, the locksmith can pop
- a simple lock with a full-round action
- and an average lock with 2 full-rounds
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Thanks Turin. I told him he could put ranks in DD but he seems bent on Craft. I was thinking of increasing the number of rounds and making it harder for him.
Thanks for the advice on the Artisan's Tools and Thieve's Tools!
Glad to offer what I can. I do something along those lines IRL, so the time estimations are reasonable in game terms. Combined with the requirement for illumination - which isn't unreasonable, since scrolls also have this requirement - it will make the locksmith less-than-optimal. HOWEVER, it is a reasonable use of a skill by a character without trapfinding and Disable Device, so I would encourage it within reason. Oh, and it DEFINITELY requires two hands free to do this activity, just in case their are any doubts, to use the tools. And unless the lock is mysteriously placed so as to permit more than two humanoids to stand adjacent to the lock and view it adequately, aid another actions would be limited to one other character. A bard's inspire competence would come in REAL handy for this kind of check though!
I would suggest that the time increments reduce one step (to a minimum of what the PF Beta rules indicate for the 'grade' of lock) for every 5 full points by which the locksmith beats the lock's effective DC.
Say a 10th level character has 10 ranks, skill focus (+6 due to having 10 ranks in Craft: Locksmith), masterwork artisan AND thieves' tools (+2 non-stackable circumstance bonus) and an ability bonus of +2 (plus a sunrod peaking over his shoulder providing good illumination) totaling a +20 Locksmith bonus. Presuming a die roll of 10 for a total of 30, the locksmith can pop
while barely making the DC 30 for the good lock, taking a minute to punch through it.
- a simple lock with a full-round action
- and an average lock with 2 full-rounds
To be fair, consider what a lock now-a-days looks like and is composed of and compare that to the locks of 300+ years ago. I have some old locks and the mechanisms can be picked, literally, with some knives (I have one that a butter-knife works on). I would consider any basic deadbolt lock of today to be something like a DC40 at least. The tools needed for today's locks are much more intricate than they used to be.
Just something to consider.
To be fair, consider what a lock now-a-days looks like and is composed of and compare that to the locks of 300+ years ago. I have some old locks and the mechanisms can be picked, literally, with some knives (I have one that a butter-knife works on). I would consider any basic deadbolt lock of today to be something like a DC40 at least. The tools needed for today's locks are much more intricate than they used to be. Just something to consider.
True - but then, my time frames are suggested with the use of battery-powered modern tools. Most theives' tools of the time are not much better than butter knives in today's terms. :)
I think a better example of both tools and security measures in game terms are derived from the very late 18th and early 19th centuries. I've seen some SMALL locks from the development of clockwork mechanisms on forward. Locks didn't evolve without a necessity - but with the advent of magic, I rather suspect that locks' evolution in most worlds would have accelerated to the levels of the Amazing DC 40 monsters we see in the core rules. I doubt those are ginormous vaults, but solid information on that seems deliberately vague outside of cost and DC. Granted, DC 40 are probably going to be found on ginormous vaults, being all ... vaulty, and stuff. ^_^
'Sides, I'm thinking mostly of the 'using a craft skill to do what properly speaking in PF Beta only Disable Device can technically accomplish' angle, and relatable rationals that are hopefully simple enough to do in play for permitting a craft skill to deliver on.
Good to see you again Fakey! (so to speak :) )