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Magic Items can be powerful. They definitively add a lot to the character's resources during and adventure, and never mind during an encounter.
For an adventurer with lots of money and the right basin of population (a big enough city to allow big transactions to occur), there is no way of knowing which items should be easy to find and which might require more "digging" and potentially shady dealings.
DMs are not in a better situation, as they have to know every magic item in order to dictate its availability according to their campaign, and to the level of magic accessibility he or she desires.
Could there be an AVAILABILITY descriptor for magic items, such as Common, Rare, Extremely Rare, Illegal etc in the magic item description. Even if the tag does not convey any mechanical modifiers, a standard reference to the availability of magic items would be welcome (from my parts anyway).
Campaign settings and adventure sites could alter this descriptor according to different locations, such as boot of elvencraft being common in an elven city(instead of rare, for example), or carpets of flying being only rare in [insert 1001-night inspired country].
'findel
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Magic Items can be powerful. They definitively add a lot to the character's resources during and adventure, and never mind during an encounter.
For an adventurer with lots of money and the right basin of population (a big enough city to allow big transactions to occur), there is no way of knowing which items should be easy to find and which might require more "digging" and potentially shady dealings.
DMs are not in a better situation, as they have to know every magic item in order to dictate its availability according to its campaign, and to the level of magic accessibility he or she desires.
Could there be an AVAILABILITY descriptor, or line for magic items, such as Common, Rare, Extremely Rare, Illegal etc. Even if the tag does not convey any mechanical modifiers, a common reference to the availability to magic items would be welcome (from my parts anyway).
Campaign settings and adventure site could alter this descriptor according to different locations, such as boot of elvencraft being common rather than rare in an elven city, or carpets of flying being rare rather than extremely rare in [insert 1001-night inspired country].
'findel
I like this Idea.
bunch of stuff see above Could there be an AVAILABILITY descriptor for magic items, such as Common, Rare, Extremely Rare, Illegal etc in the magic item description. Even if the tag does not convey any mechanical modifiers, a standard reference to the availability of magic items would be welcome (from my parts anyway).more
this is a great idea to have everything have a rarity, but it'd better if left to dm's to say, no you can't find that it's very rare in this neck of the woods.
that way if a dm doesn't want the players to have something it can't be argued "but it's common." because then dm's would have to kill the players, and then they wouldn't be dm's; as all their players would be dead; and there is such a shortage on dm's as it is. would you want to be responsible for reducing the amount of dm's, huh, would you!?!
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I like the idea but in practice I think it'll get ignored. As an example I turn to the race/class mixes labeled as "not likely". In the Pathfinder Society game days I run we had two halfling clerics. That is not only rare but the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting states it is unlikely, i.e. you should not see this race/class mix in the Inner Sea. But there it was, two halfling clerics, brothers nonetheless.
If there is a limit to magic items the control is with the DM for home games and authors/editors for the Pathfinder modules. If the Pathfinder RPG is a magic mart, the precendent being published mods and low cost to acquire magic baubles, it'll be a losing battle for DMs who like seeing low magic in their campaign. On the flip side it will create frustration with players who want the cool goodies early in their adventuring careers.
Like I said, I like the idea but I believe the classification will get ignored. However, for DMs who like to create home brew adventures I can see a value in it. If it is included it would be interesting to see because it will set the bar on where Pathfinder RPG lies. Magic mart or low magic?
Rene
I think a more workable solution would be a percentile system based on city size. A large metropolis might have anything you need. However, the smaller the town, the less likely you would be to find an item and certainly not at the book listed price. Our GM has worked that system into our game and we certainly decide if we need an item THAT badly, or just wait until our next trip to the Big City.
(...)
If there is a limit to magic items the control is with the DM for home games and authors/editors for the Pathfinder modules. If the Pathfinder RPG is a magic mart, the precendent being published mods and low cost to acquire magic baubles, it'll be a losing battle for DMs who like seeing low magic in their campaign. On the flip side it will create frustration with players who want the cool goodies early in their adventuring careers.
(...)
Rene
As most guidelines, I'd expect it to be ignored by some, taken as-is by some and analyzed and modified by most. True, the best filter remains the cherry-picking of the DM, selecting those that he or she feels should be common or left out, but this involves a deep knowledge of what item does what and of which problems one can expect if every second adventurer possess a copy of that etc...
As far as the low-magic vs. wand-mart issue, I believe that such a guideline would only help a DM customize its campaign without having to know the effects of every single item by heart.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I think I've red from another post that you played in organized play such as Living Greyhawk. Without some kind of guidelines, specific access or racial contacts, every player end's up with whatever item he or she can afford. It may be alright in some game, it may not be in others. A "core" guideline to magic item accessibility (or magic altogether for that matter) would only set standard references to what a player can expect to find according to the DM's style of play.
That of course, is a personal opinion, and I know the system well enough to know what can be found in the corner store and what may require a specific quest to acquire, but I remember that as a new DM to the 3.5 edition, I wish there would be such a guideline.
'findel
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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(...)
If there is a limit to magic items the control is with the DM for home games and authors/editors for the Pathfinder modules. If the Pathfinder RPG is a magic mart, the precendent being published mods and low cost to acquire magic baubles, it'll be a losing battle for DMs who like seeing low magic in their campaign. On the flip side it will create frustration with players who want the cool goodies early in their adventuring careers.
(...)
ReneAs most guidelines, I'd expect it to be ignored by some, taken as-is by some and analyzed and modified by most. True, the best filter remains the cherry-picking of the DM, selecting those that he or she feels should be common or left out, but this involves a deep knowledge of what item does what and of which problems one can expect if every second adventurer possess a copy of that etc...
As far as the low-magic vs. wand-mart issue, I believe that such a guideline would only help a DM customize its campaign without having to know the effects of every single item by heart.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I think I've red from another post that you played in organized play such as Living Greyhawk. Without some kind of guidelines, specific access or racial contacts, every player end's up with whatever item he or she can afford. It may be alright in some game, it may not be in others. A "core" guideline to magic item accessibility (or magic altogether for that matter) would only set standard references to what a player can expect to find according to the DM's style of play.
That of course, is a personal opinion, and I know the system well enough to know what can be found in the corner store and what may require a specific quest to acquire, but I remember that as a new DM to the 3.5 edition, I wish there would be such a guideline.
'findel
I too think there needs to be a base assumption of magic level and what's available to PC's (by level, by city size, by CR in hoards, etc) explained to DM's. It would really help new DM's who don't have system mastery from losing control of their campaigns from a disruptive item getting loose.
I had mentioned in another thread in the High Level Play forum that several examples of where a PC could expect to find a magic item for sale or trade should be written up. Now there have been great articles written on the subject in Dragon, examples have been made in the FR supplement Magic of Faerun, and the item level mechanic was introduced in the Magic Item Compendium. However an explaination and examples would be a boon to DM's, even old pros, many of whose play with wildly different styles.
Benchmarks are good.
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Yes, I did play Living Greyhawk. My biggest complaint to anyone that would listen was the free for all in magic items. Another was power gaming but that's a conversation for a different thread.
So much magic was available in LG it created a lot of imbalance at the tables. Some players would come from regions that liberally gave away these toys. Others took a little more responsibility and didn't offer a blank check to Magic Item Compendium. Many gaming sessions were not fun because of the silliness players invoked from the glut of magic they brought out.
I see what you're saying about placing this designation on the magic item's description. It reminds me of old school 1st edition's Monster Manual. A system I very much liked because it controlled the access to magic and coin - well at least it did the way we played it. In reference to my first post my thought comes from the difference in gamer value this information creates versus the time designers will take to classify items, then account for the number of questions and clarifications that arise after the PRPG is released.
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In reference to the OP's original question, I think there already is a labeling method in place. Most magic items are broken into three categories, Minor, Medium, and Major. You could easily use this as a guideline for your campaign.
Personally, I assume minor items are available in cities with the appropriate gp level. The player's character may have to take a day to search, but should be able to locate said item with minimal fuss.
Medium level items will require the character to do some serious hunting in large city, taking a 2-5 days. Even then, the item may not be available. I usually ask for gather information/diplomacy/bluff/intimidate checks while looking for the item. Of course, the character can always make the item themselves or contract the items construction, but this usually takes significantly longer.
Major items are not available for sale. They must be contracted out, created by the character, or found during an adventure.
Potions are pretty low level effects, I treat oth, 1st, and 2nd level potions as minor items, and 3rd level as medium.
Wands are pretty much the same, oth, 1st, and 2nd, level wands are minor, 3rd and 4th level wands are medium.
Scrolls fall roughly the same - oth, 1st, and 2nd are minor, 3rd and 4th are medium, and higher are major.
Of course, the campaign may dictate different levels for specific items - a plague may make Cure Disease wands very scarce, or a city who traffics with underwater races regularly make have Potions of Water Breathing for sale everywhere.
Thoughts?
I really like this idea. I'm going to pull up my books and take a look at what I can see and how that works for my campaign. But the concept is neat. Thanks for the idea.
How "rare" a magic item used to be, was based upon how it was rolled up.
Basically the frequency that it popped up on random charts dictated how often you saw something.
Now with "Modern" DnD letting a 5th level character beging to make magic items (yea yea i know you can make potions and scrolls at lower levels) it makes just about everything written down as common as the characters are able to create it.
We changed the item creation feats like so:
1st level scibe scroll
3rd level potions
3rd level wands
12th level Craft Magic items.
Basically, this makes it so anything that doesnt have a charge, you have to find/buy before 12th level.
It makes ALOT of things more rare (because they dont come up on the random charts all too often)
Now look at the random generation tables. Treat your magic store or wizards guild like a "treasure"
Example: there is a 60% chance for a "minor" "treaure" (read magic shop in a small city) to have a +1 shield. So...common
Lets look at a city like absalom (MAJOR Treasure) in a major city (using the major table) you have an 89-90 to get a vorpal weapon.
That means a 1% chance in a MAJOR city, UBER rare!
And if you really think about it. WHO would sell that weapon to a magic shop?? Its rarity ALONE would make it worth more than its base GPV. You could MAKE a vorpal weapon (or have it commissioned to be made) cheaper than someone would be willing to sell an already existing one.
For us this brings back the role playing to having magic items. You quest for the rare materials for it being made, you find it in treasure or you travel about trying to locate a magic shop (or hear about the existance of one, or your bard helps locate one) to buy it from.
It also makes everything (well except +1 longswords) much more rare-er.
I like the idea of items with charges( wands potions scrolls) and +1 longswords or shields being pretty available to your characters from levels 1-5.
Above that, things should be not easy to come by.
on a side note, in addition to changing what level you can make magic items (an combining it to a single feat) we also dictate that you have to have 5 ranks of craft in a specific item type to create a magic one (ie you wants to make guantelts of ogre power, you need leatherworking craft with at least 5 ranks)
That way a single charater isnt creating any and everything, because hes unlikely to have 5 ranks of skills in crafting jewlry, weapons, leather, etc.
But this take on itme crafting has also helped suck points into other skills that would normally have gone into spellcraft/concentration.
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For us this brings back the role playing to having magic items. You quest for the rare materials for it being made, you find it in treasure or you travel about trying to locate a magic shop (or hear about the existance of one, or your bard helps locate one) to buy it from.
It also makes everything (well except +1 longswords) much more rare-er.I like the idea of items with charges( wands potions scrolls) and +1 longswords or shields being pretty available to your characters from levels 1-5.
Above that, things should be not easy to come by.
Roleplaying to get magic items - totally agree with that sentiment. Something I've tried many times over the years to get players to do. I've always had a bit of distaste for the Magic-mart mentality that exists in your typical D&D game.
Unfortunately, as I've found out the hard way, it's really hard to get players to want to interact with the local herbalist when all they want to do is purchase a potion of Cure Light Wounds. One player described it as "having to hear the life story of the server at McDonald's just to buy a Big Mac." End that idea.
Of course the same player thought it was totally appropriate to "shop" for a Vorpal Sword in every small hamlet. Kind of like getting a Faberge Egg out of vending machine. (Wish I'd thought of that analogy at the time.)
Hence the system I use now - Minor, easy to find. Medium - takes some skill checks (or role playing). Major - either do it yourself (feats), kill someone who has it (a quest!), or make friends with a high level wizard or cleric who will agree to do it for you (role playing!).
I think this is a great idea, even if it is ignored or changed by many, merely introducing the idea as part of the core rules can have a major impact. Even if an idea is pretty obvious and intuitive in hindsight, many people won't ever think of it until it's in black & white right in front of their face.
Plus, I really like the idea (probably more for individual DMs but maybe for Golarion and other published settings) of having different regions having different availability. In one region, all scrolls are one step more available, but all armor is one step less available. In another, there are no illegal weapons. In both cases, those availability changes make much of the mood of each area tangible and concrete with only a single sentence.
Furthermore, I would probably modify it slightly to make "illegal" be sort of a keyword/modifier rather than rarity on it's own. Some items can be illegal but rare, while others are illegal and extremely rare. Plus, it allows flexibility of making illegal items legal in broad swaths while still having some be common and others rare.
I know this is something that a lot of DMs would modify anyway, but many won't bother to give it much thought unless there is an established baseline to work from.
Plus for those who prefer low magic or high magic, "common" can mean either "need to search for 1d4 days, and only 50% chance of finding" to "available in any major bazaar or shopping district with no searching". It's just a keyword that stands in relation to others, so you can shift the whole range to set the tone of the campaign. PRetty easy to have a chart for low, medium, and high magic settings explaining what "common", "rare", etc. mean in game terms.
And some items are illegal and very common (think drugs in america). One question is, now are these policies enforced? One thing I don't like about the direction 3.x has gone is the question of if this is a magic item is almost gone. I remember in eariler editions that unless you made the item yourself you never were quite sure the entire extent of its power, or if it could be cursed in some way. I realise part of that is up to the campaign and DM, but when anybody with an appraise skill can go "Yup this is a magic dagger + 2" it takes something out of the magic items in general.
(...) So the DM should have a handle on the treasure dispensing.
The DM also sets the level of magic in the game. If the party marches into the capital city and shops around for a +4 brilliant energy defender blade, they might not find one. Just because it's in the book and it's cool is no reason to hand one out in your game. Sometimes a DM has to say "No." (...)
I'm in total agreement with you here. However, that is easy to do for an experienced DM like you, me and most people from around here. But a novice DM lacks this sort of judgment, not by lack of common sense or lack of maturity (although it is sometimes the case) but by lack of experience and first-hand knowledge of the available items. If the RPG market is developing (which I think it is), then more novice DMs will try on the game. Guidelines from those who have more experience (aka the designers) can only be helpful.
It is my personal opinion that this kind of thing has its place in the Core Book(s).
'findel
And some items are illegal and very common (think drugs in america). One question is, now are these policies enforced? One thing I don't like about the direction 3.x has gone is the question of if this is a magic item is almost gone. I remember in eariler editions that unless you made the item yourself you never were quite sure the entire extent of its power, or if it could be cursed in some way. I realise part of that is up to the campaign and DM, but when anybody with an appraise skill can go "Yup this is a magic dagger + 2" it takes something out of the magic items in general.
In some ways I like that "yup" its a +2 dagger.
I mean it was always annoying to have to take up spell slots (especially on a sorceror who cant change them) for "Identify" just to know it's a +2 dagger.
I think (and this is the way IVe always done it) if it has command words, or a longstory of excess powers or is cursed someway, legend lore or more powerful diving is required.
I have often "added" powers to characters magic weapons much later on in a game (started out with a +1 sword only find out later it is undead bane....etc)
When honestly in the game, at the time all it REALLY WAS, was a simple +1 longsword; But because it wasn't "thouroughly" checked out, it was found to have aditional properties later.
At other times I have hidden properties I intended items to have all along, from the player (like the fact it was an intelligent luck blade)
Because well the weapon was intelligent, and It didnt necessarily just want to start handing out wishes, so it stayed "dormant"...
Things like that.
Oh and "helms of opposite alignment" dont just instantly turn your party paladin into a drooling psychotic bl0od thirsty demon worshipping maniac..."good" cursed items have beneficial properties too...
Let it be a helm of free action, AND a helm of opposite alignment.
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while i dislike the idea of magic shops... as they are currently in the world a list or simply and identifier saying how common or uncommon they are... would make me happy, and it only adds 1 or 2 words per magic items (which might be a lot in the end... but if added well into the same description it might be ok...) damn now am to falling into the pits of WoW magic items :S *sight*
still... other thing is common sense...
there comes list with potions and wondrous items... each one dividing itmes by Minor, Medium & Mayor items... I believe this already define magic bojects this way:
Minor = Common
Medium = Uncommon
Mayor = Rare
Artifacts = Unique
Maybe this could be explained somewhere just to make it more explicit.
I hope this solves everything without needing to color code the items from gray, green, blue, purple and golden :P
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I remember in eariler editions that unless you made the item yourself you never were quite sure the entire extent of its power, or if it could be cursed in some way. I realise part of that is up to the campaign and DM, but when anybody with an appraise skill can go "Yup this is a magic dagger + 2" it takes something out of the magic items in general.In some ways I like that "yup" its a +2 dagger.
I mean it was always annoying to have to take up spell slots (especially on a sorceror who cant change them) for "Identify" just to know it's a +2 dagger.
I think (and this is the way IVe always done it) if it has command words, or a longstory of excess powers or is cursed someway, legend lore or more powerful diving is required.
Y'all brought up some great points - it is a bit annoying that a low grade appraise check can identify any magic item, but it's also annoying to burn a valuable spell slot to identify a dagger +1.
Maybe this is where we can apply the minor, medium, and major scale again. Minor items could be identified by an appraise check. Medium items would require an Identify spell. Major items would require a higher level of divination (Legend Lore fits the bill, but feels like a bit much).
Cursed items should always identify as the non-cursed version of the item. What the point of having cursed items in the game if you can use a first level spell or simply appraise check to bypass them?
Thoughts?
Much of it really depends. For example, the longstanding joke/reality in all of my games is that Wands of Wonder are banned in all civilized kingdoms. It's not that fireballs aren't bad, but no magistrate wants to deal with some yahoo running around with Chaos-on-a-Stick.
Similarly, on encountering a highly bureaucratic Chinese society, the Imperial Censor confiscated all "smugglers' packs" meaning bags of holding, handy haversacks and similar highly useful adventuring items which would be of even greater use to smugglers.
And amulets of non-detection are always in demand. The trouble is, no one can ever find them.
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I would very much like to see items noted for the level for which they are appropriate. In The Complete Magic Items or whatever that book is from WOTC, they did a great job of finally making it easy to allocate items per level. This would also make it easier to seed items in a city. An item appropriate for level 1 is likely to be very easy to find. An item appropriate for level 20 is very likely to be almost impossible to find without the proper contacts which you should have at level 20.
It does a fantastic job of making a GM's job easier. For once WOTC did something right. You know, just before they destroyed the game.
Yes, the Magic Item Compendium. It has lots of low-value items for the lower levels, and some cool flavor.
PFRPG has higher treasure per level than 3.5. I like that. If you don't, they suggest lowering PC wealth by a level or so.
In 1e and 2e, I frankly got tired of do-nothing or cursed magic items that took forever to figure out. They wasted time that could have been spent adventuring, and frustrated players to no end.
Per the MIC, you should tailor items to what your party likes and needs. We've all said "Who wants a +1 longsword? Nobody? Ok, we'll sell it." Got a fighter who's all about damage? Let him find a really nice sword he'll want to keep. The wizard has low dex? Give him an item to help with that, or some bracers to keep him from getting splattered all the time.
If they take craft feats, it's not fair to deny them items they can make. To me, going on a quest just to get some rare substance to make an item can be a distraction from the larger goals of the players.
More loot= tougher PCs= tougher challenges you can throw at them.
It's just a playing style thing. There's no right answer. Just be consistent.