Necromancer has done some top-notch writing. Several years ago, Clark was bringing in the old Wilderlands of High Fantasy stuff from Judges Guild. There are a bunch of us who would like to see Tegel Manor updated...Pathfinder style! Let me be the first to cast a vote for that.
I would also like to see Necromancer go forward with all the other goodies mentioned above that were put on ice over the 4e release and the GSL debacle. Lets see all the things that were already in the works get finished. Better yet, how about City of Brass expansions,
Tome of Horrors that weighs the choices against what is in the Pathfinder Bestiary, and The Slumbering Tsar.
Good stuff...
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What, praytell, would you most like to see?
Pathfinder edition rules, 1st edition feel.
Not being snarky, I love you guys and what you have done not just to save the game, but also recapture what made D&D such a good game to begin with. With pazio mods I get a very 2nd - 3rd ed feel hovering around a PG-13 with a slight drift to rated R on content. With Necro products and mods it is firmly in the R and 1st ed feel just based upon the setup and attitude with some of the challenges they set up. Very simple yet very difficult at the same time.
That being said, the 3.5 revision of Tome of Horrors was online only so I would like to see a hardcover PFRPG Tome of Horrors.
Some of their 96 and 128 page modules/mini campaigns were best ever written in the biz, and they do have a very 1st ed feel. I feel that 3.5 (and PFRPG) being more modern constructs go over the top with mechanics/combos aspect of the game as focus. Strongly influenced by a 2nd ed feel and quality, which is good, but there is something to be said for Rappan Athuk which is basically the kind of hellish module that easily could be an extension/preqel for the S1-Tomb of Horrors.
I have to give credit to Pazio for making this all come together, and keeping this whole experience feeling as exiting as it was some odd 28 years ago, when I was a kid. You guys rock!
Alot of posters would like to see Rappan Athuk (which I also like alot) - personally however I preferred Tom of Abysthor and would like to see a PF version.
While we all want the ToH series updated and reprinted...as far as everything else goes, why stick to reprint/updates? Give us new stuff and surprise us.
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Actually, I have both the seperate and boxed set versions of Rappan, I would love to see a reprint/update of Vault of Larrin Karr and more modules/mini campaigns written in that vein.
The specialty heavy duty stuff (boxed sets, hardcover modules) might be a bit much to ask for as reprints/updates.
A PFRPG Tome of Horrors is sort of requirement actually. Necro got those monsters - those WOTC omitted from the MM and a reprint wouldn't violate the OGL. In a sense what Necro did by printing the first 3.0 version is protect those classic critters so that other companies can use them later on without violation.
Passing up a chance to use some of thse classic creatures (Shadow Demon ftw!) for PFRPG would be a huge mistake.
Tome of Horrors and Rapan Athuk!!
Hear hear! More Athuk is always good.
I would love to see Rappan Athuk Reloaded done w/ the PFRPG rules just to get it back into print! Too few people had access to this rare product, and it's a fortune to buy on eBay. Bring it to the adoring masses!
$15 is a fortune??
As I have this boxed set, but have no plans to use it, your post made me think "hey, could this be worth something? I'm going to check out Ebay and see!" So I did. One copy is for sale, near-mint condition, $14.99 currently, 1 bidder. I'm curious to see what it ultimately goes for, but I don't expect it to be a fortune.
I'd really like to see Gygax's Necropolis redone Pathfinder Style- which of course means having Mike Kortes rework it a bit and set in Osirion.
Was about to recommend both parts of that suggestion when I saw your post. Great minds!
I have to say that I am surprised to see so many people asking for updates to existing 3.0/3.5 products. The monster books, ok, but really the adventures can more or less be run as is. I would much rather see Necro cover new ground than reissue old product.
Pathfinder edition rules, 1st edition feel.
QFT.
One is an adventure that was never released, one at least that was released but in numbers far below the (ongoing) demand for it, and one is a gem-in-the-rough, that really could be much better than it was. (Not to mention: out-of-print.)
I will add my request for Necropolis to be reprinted in Pathfinder Rules. I ran it as 3.5 and thoroughly enjoyed it. True it can be run as-is with some updating but it would be nice to see it Pathfinderized.
Just my 2 cp.
I'm actually of two minds with this news.
On the one hand I'm very happy and hope the market will support Pathfinder stuff.
And even though I have most of Nercro stuff I wouldn't mind seeing a ToH update to the best beasties. Elderic Sorcery was a very good book too and wouldn't mind seeing again.
However the other side of the coin is that....
A. Pathfinder being backwards compatable almost makes updating the rules pointless except for reprinting reasons.
B. As above I not sure how I'd feel about a reprinting of a product that is the exact same thing except they'll add X number of monsters to get the money of people who already have the product. And lets face it we will.
C. Redoing/printing older stuff hurts newer material. My thinking is that the new market that comes out as 2009 unfolds For Pathfinder will be a lot less then anything seen during 3e high point, but may still suffer from glut. As such new stuff might be of more value then older stuff.
Its an odd thing retrospectively, but in some ways the end of 3rd was a good thing, because while the game may not have been tired and old, fewer products came out and the fans could catch up with what they wanted, and be less worried about bad products in the glut.
As to using paizo house world, what for? They are making enough home world adv. No make your world adv. unique. Heck one of the nice things about all the companies that came out with material for 3rd was that they were unique and had their own take on something. Thus allowing the players and GM's to pick and chose what we liked.
I would love to see Rappan Athuk Reloaded done w/ the PFRPG rules just to get it back into print! Too few people had access to this rare product, and it's a fortune to buy on eBay. Bring it to the adoring masses!$15 is a fortune??
As I have this boxed set, but have no plans to use it, your post made me think "hey, could this be worth something? I'm going to check out Ebay and see!" So I did. One copy is for sale, near-mint condition, $14.99 currently, 1 bidder. I'm curious to see what it ultimately goes for, but I don't expect it to be a fortune.
I can only speak based on the last eBay sale, which went for--IMHO--a ridiculous sum of money. Yes, the opening bids are low, but they shot up near the end of the auction. I'm not willing to get gouged to buy this. Thanks for pointing me to a new sale, and I'll track it, but I don't have high hopes.
If you're looking to sell your copy to a fellow Paizonian for a fair price, you can contact me at
Thanks.
edit
[If you're looking to sell your copy to a fellow Paizonian for a fair price, you can contact me at
You're willing to spend hundreds on Slumbering Tsar, but not Rappan Athuk, eh? ;)
this is bad news, since i buy for BOTH game systems (i.e., NG will be getting a lot of $$$ from me) :)
Me too! :( Oh well. I can't complain, not really.
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Hopefully someone at Necromancer is dropping in here to look at this thread on occasion:
"Your email server is broken!"
I've been trying the email address on the Necromancer site this week and getting bounces. I tried emailing 'postmaster' at ccpgames.com who hold the MX record - no joy, that standard address isn't set up.
Technical details of permanent failure:
The recipient server did not accept our requests to connect. Learn more at http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=7720
[mail.white-wolf.com. (10): Connection timed out]
Sorry to spam the board with this. Anyone else noticed problems or is it a Gmail specific thing?
What, praytell, would you most like to see?
Pathfinder edition rules, 1st edition feel.
Not being snarky, I love you guys and what you have done not just to save the game, but also recapture what made D&D such a good game to begin with. With pazio mods I get a very 2nd - 3rd ed feel hovering around a PG-13 with a slight drift to rated R on content. With Necro products and mods it is firmly in the R and 1st ed feel just based upon the setup and attitude with some of the challenges they set up. Very simple yet very difficult at the same time.
That being said, the 3.5 revision of Tome of Horrors was online only so I would like to see a hardcover PFRPG Tome of Horrors.
Some of their 96 and 128 page modules/mini campaigns were best ever written in the biz, and they do have a very 1st ed feel. I feel that 3.5 (and PFRPG) being more modern constructs go over the top with mechanics/combos aspect of the game as focus. Strongly influenced by a 2nd ed feel and quality, which is good, but there is something to be said for Rappan Athuk which is basically the kind of hellish module that easily could be an extension/preqel for the S1-Tomb of Horrors.
I have to give credit to Pazio for making this all come together, and keeping this whole experience feeling as exiting as it was some odd 28 years ago, when I was a kid. You guys rock!
I've heard a lot 'bout "1st ed feel"... can anyone explain what that is? I'm really interested.
Myself, I have a hard time explaining why I think that Pathfinder "feels cool". I does, but ... why?
Myself, I have a hard time explaining why I think that Pathfinder "feels cool". I does, but ... why?
[off topic]
For me, the reason I find Pathfinder cool is that it gives me that that "familair, lived in setting" feeling. As if its original inception was a decade or two ago and has changed by many players walking through it over the years. It feels familiar like this one area has a feeling of the forgotten realms, another of greyhawk, another of CoC, and so on, but each are combined in a way that is different than their inspiration. In short, it feels like the culmination of gaming history.[/off topic]
To your original question: I believe that 1E feel has more to do with an heir of mystery. Instead of visiting places that are old hat, magical effects that you recognize the moment the GM gives a description, monsters that you instictively know their immunities and powers, you encounter things that inspire a sense of awe and wonder, things unknown, places undiscovered. At least, that's what I feel it is. I don't know if that's how Clark defines it though. I don't really do pre-made adventures.
I thought "1st ed. feel" meant "huge dungeons with deadly traps". :-)
Wasn't there a module Heir of Mystery?
;P
Myself, I have a hard time explaining why I think that Pathfinder "feels cool". I does, but ... why?[off topic]
For me, the reason I find Pathfinder cool is that it gives me that that "familair, lived in setting" feeling. As if its original inception was a decade or two ago and has changed by many players walking through it over the years. It feels familiar like this one area has a feeling of the forgotten realms, another of greyhawk, another of CoC, and so on, but each are combined in a way that is different than their inspiration. In short, it feels like the culmination of gaming history.
[/off topic]To your original question: I believe that 1E feel has more to do with an heir of mystery. Instead of visiting places that are old hat, magical effects that you recognize the moment the GM gives a description, monsters that you instictively know their immunities and powers, you encounter things that inspire a sense of awe and wonder, things unknown, places undiscovered. At least, that's what I feel it is. I don't know if that's how Clark defines it though. I don't really do pre-made adventures.
Thanks DMcCoy,
Hmm, I THINK i understand that.So the "feeling" would probably be something experienced by people who were playing the game "back then", as opposed to, say a young gamer, starting out in Pathfinder/ Golarion..?
I played 1ed myself in the mid 80', but left it for GURPS. My son got the bug playing 3.5 and now we're both playing the Beta and having a blast!
GRU
Eldritch Magic
Tome of Horror I,II,III in a single massive tome
Rappan Athuk
City of BrassAs some NG products are sold out or not available you can pathfinderize almost any NG product with very little work (just changing some stats) and make it available again with a "PRPG compliance logo".
I like almost any NG game product so far.
All three Tomes in one volume would cost a staggering amount of money to make and even more to buy. Let's be realistic in our requests.
- ToH Pathfinder edition, with the best of ToH I-III monsters. Black and white, for the extra old-school feel.
I, too, wouldst love to see some Tome of Horrors awesomeness for Pathfinder, but I'm leery of 'The Best of' compilations. I'm often the guy who thinks that... say... hypothetically... the Asswere is awesome and the mega-tough-demon-of-coolness (and no, I'm not talking about Orcus. He's good with me.) was generic, blah, and lowest common badass denominator.
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- ToH Pathfinder edition, with the best of ToH I-III monsters. Black and white, for the extra old-school feel.I, too, wouldst love to see some Tome of Horrors awesomeness for Pathfinder, but I'm leery of 'The Best of' compilations. I'm often the guy who thinks that... say... hypothetically... the Asswere is awesome and the mega-tough-demon-of-coolness (and no, I'm not talking about Orcus. He's good with me.) was generic, blah, and lowest common badass denominator.
Can't imagine such book without the Asswere ;).
Can't imagine such book without the Asswere ;).
Tell me about it. n.-
I just don't want people with odder monster tastes (like me) to get left out in the cold.
Worried you'll freeze your asswere off?
So the "feeling" would probably be something experienced by people who were playing the game "back then", as opposed to, say a young gamer, starting out in Pathfinder/ Golarion..?
Well Clark is trying to target an older crowd of long time gamers by branding his whole company with a "1E feel." So I'd hazard a guess by saying, "yes."
My best counterpoint is Traveller. Traveller defines itself as a generic sci-fi RPG. But the base setting captures the essence of sci-fi of 30+ years ago, not so much today's. I'd prefer to play Babylon 5 or some other setting that was originally based on the rate of today's tech as how far and how fast it will accellerate. I didn't play Traveller back in the day, so products that capture that an older sense of future tech do not appeal to me.
I imagine the same would be true about those buying adventure buyers that started out in the past few years (or even today).
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So the "feeling" would probably be something experienced by people who were playing the game "back then", as opposed to, say a young gamer, starting out in Pathfinder/ Golarion..?Well Clark is trying to target an older crowd of long time gamers by branding his whole company with a "1E feel." So I'd hazard a guess by saying, "yes."
My best counterpoint is Traveller. Traveller defines itself as a generic sci-fi RPG. But the base setting captures the essence of sci-fi of 30+ years ago, not so much today's. I'd prefer to play Babylon 5 or some other setting that was originally based on the rate of today's tech as how far and how fast it will accellerate. I didn't play Traveller back in the day, so products that capture that an older sense of future tech do not appeal to me.
I imagine the same would be true about those buying adventure buyers that started out in the past few years (or even today).
I disagree with this assessment. I do think that there is a certain sense of nostalgia that you CAN recapture in product, and I think that Paizo is going back to an old Greyhawk/early FR with Golarion. Even some of their encounter tables include beasties that may be too high for characters to deal with, but still can be exposed to - not "only within 1-3 CRs of their level". That is an example of how Paizo doing it 1st Ed.
With regard to Traveler, yeah there is a problem because 1970'-80's tech and concepts on technology are going to make the game look very dated, even though it is supposed to represent the future! The only comparable thing with S&S would be the fiction which exists now as an influence vs. the influences which help to create the original feel of 1st ed.
The problem with these two comparisons is that if you run a sci-fi game using Robbie the Robot and vacuum tubes technology as cutting edge you are going to get laughed at. Fantasy can more easily draw from older and newer sources since it is just Fantasy. A book written about a Dragon and his lair 50 years ago can easily be used as an influence for a adventure, while an old sci-fi novel would probably need considerable reworking due to the technological advances which may have come out decades after the work was penned –some of which could invalidate the premise of the original story!
Here is a good example of Paizo vs. necro style. Paizo would have a mid level encounter with a few wraiths and the wraiths may have some odd prestige class or ability attached to them to make the fight interesting. Necro would have two wraiths in a tomb area which can only be accessed by a small crawlspace - the poor adventurer who is unlucky enough to be going through (rogue) gets attacked in that space by said unmodified, un-enhanced wraiths. Necro just has tougher scenarios and yes, more of a harsher Gygaxian feel. Less formula, more "this is the situation- lets see what the players can come up with to get around or through the problem".
So I don't agree that it is exclusive to the period in which you played the game/modules, some of that style can (and has been) reproduced in modern modules. I just don't like the rigid, formulaic wotc style, I actually like random encounter tables (thank you Paizo for using them in your mods!) even if I choose not to use them. It supports the fact that characters live in world, and that the world doesn't just exist for them or even for the module/adventure that are trying to undertake.
So to me "1st ed feel" is partially format, but mostly philosophy. Paizo does have it to some extent, and they sure as hell respect it.
Of course this is all just my take on the issue of "1st ed feel".
You're willing to spend hundreds on Slumbering Tsar, but not Rappan Athuk, eh? ;)[If you're looking to sell your copy to a fellow Paizonian for a fair price, you can contact me at
I know that's just good-natured ribbing, but, yes. Slumbering Tsar has never been published, and I would very much like to see it as 3.5 or for PFRPG. Rappan Athuk I can only hope to see w/ a reprint/redo (unlikely), or, some kind-hearted fellow gamer who'd like to sell one to me. (I don't expect a decent price on eBay when it comes to crunch time.)
BenS - you've got mail.
I already have everything Necromancer did, often in triplicate, so I would rather see new stuff, including what they never got in print before 4E. So Slumbering Tsar, Eamonvale Incursion, Tegal Manor, Sword of Air, and new stuff.
Judges Guild has refused to sign onto 4E, so maybe with Pathfinder Necromancer can get Tegal Manor out after all. With that big vinyl map. I want the big vinyl map, just like what was done for Ptolus.
Judges Guild has refused to sign onto 4E, so maybe with Pathfinder Necromancer can get Tegal Manor out after all. With that big vinyl map. I want the big vinyl map, just like what was done for Ptolus.
Are you sure about this Ruby Lord, I haven't heard one way or another about JG. Early 08 they seemed intent on coming out with a class/race book (3.5 rules) to keep the stuff in PG to Wilderlands in print. But then I heard a lot a people say that Necro and JG might go seperate ways because they (JG) wanted to support 4e. In either case I would be surprized to see JG go pathfinder.
System issues aside (I don't like 4th but it has its merits) I saw the GSL as being to harsh and next to worthless to sign onto, so if your correct that is good news indeed.
TTFN DRE
I guess I've been sort of out of the Necromancer - Judges' Guild loop for a while, but I was under the impression that they split ways several years back. Was I wrong?
Judges Guild has refused to sign onto 4E, so maybe with Pathfinder Necromancer can get Tegal Manor out after all. With that big vinyl map. I want the big vinyl map, just like what was done for Ptolus.Are you sure about this Ruby Lord, I haven't heard one way or another about JG. Early 08 they seemed intent on coming out with a class/race book (3.5 rules) to keep the stuff in PG to Wilderlands in print. But then I heard a lot a people say that Necro and JG might go seperate ways because they (JG) wanted to support 4e. In either case I would be surprized to see JG go pathfinder.
System issues aside (I don't like 4th but it has its merits) I saw the GSL as being to harsh and next to worthless to sign onto, so if your correct that is good news indeed.
TTFN DRE
I am certain. In fact it was Judges Guild who has no interest in going 4E. They are allowing OGL stuff to be done though, like AGP's stuff, which is being done for C&C. He also has permission to redo/update the Players Guide to the Wilderlands for 3E.
Now hopefully, since PF is OGL, Necromancer can do the last JG product they were supposed to do. Which is Tegal Manor. Hopefully Bill will win and get the vinyl map he was so excited about doing back in GenCon 2006.
So I am certain. As certain as anyone can be who isn't directly involved, and going by messgeboard posts made by the involved parties.
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What, praytell, would you most like to see?
I would like to see Necromancer do what they do best: Create Stuff with Pathfinder Rules but with 1st edition feel.
I think that this is best done with generic and not with Golarion specific stuff.But they can use Golarion as the backdrop for their adventures instead of their own default world. This should be done in a way that it does not affect the "official history" that is hsaped by PAIZO.
I do not want Pathfinder re-prints of old adventures like RAR or Trouble at Durbenford. Most Stuff is still available and easy convertable.
I would like to see NEW adventures. Mini-Campaigns like Lost city of Barakus or The Coils of Set would fill the GAP in adventure lengths that neither the APs nor the PF adventures currently addrress.
I also would like to see a PF Best of Tome of Horrors I-III for those who do not have the Originals.
But Necromancers fertile minds should create more ToHs shock full of new Monster Goodness.
So, to sum it up:
1) Update old Stuff that is either out of print or unavailable in the market.
2) Give us new generic adventures that use Golarion as backdrop but can be used in every Setting
3) Give us new Monster Goodness.
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I don't think that Golarion will be Open in that way, so that Necromancer would either have to seek some Golarion-specific arrangement or else make generic stuff or for another world. Which I'd prefer, I think.
I hope that it would be possible for Necromancer to make Judge's Guild stuff for PFRPG, starting with Wilderlands of High Fantasy, but I don't know what the situation is between JG and Necromancer.
Its starting to feel like naming the campaign setting Pathfinder and naming the actual RPG Pathfinder as well might have been a bit of a mistake.
Theres going to be that confusion that all Pathfinder product takes place in Golarion for quite a while.
I dont think Necromancer games is even allowed to use Golarion as the backdrop for their adventures when they start making them.
Oh....And count me in for a Pathfinder RPG ToH....Unless all those monsters wil eventually be in the Pathfinder Besiary 2, 3 4 and so on.
Please add me to the Pathfinder ToH list as well. :)
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Using JG Wilderlands as background campaign world with adventure path:
Crucible
Baracus
Thracia
Durbenford
Dark Tower
with a linking thread through these.
Thinking of a few between adventure conversions depending on Player reaction, possibly
Bone Hill (L1)
White Plume Mountain (s2)
3e conversions on the net of these.
Optionally something from Lamentation of Thieves, which has drop in adventures.
plus something between Thracia and durbenford as the level jump is a bit big.
Considering Return to Tomb of Horrors since S1 has conversion already, but TPK seems a big danger.
If Nec/JG want to supply some addon PF conversions fine, personally I'd prefer either new stuff or 1e conversions of classic modules. ToH revised PDF doesn't really need a re-revision. I'd go for JG releases of "Maltese Clue" and "Treasure Vaults of Lindoran" and some more Nec. mini campaigns like Baracus.
I don't see a need for Nec. to create a campaign world, plenty around already.
Tegel manor is fun in the way a Deck of Many Things is fun. The Gamescience revision cleared up a few issues and added some measure of rationale to it.
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This gets to one of my continuing concerns with the upcoming Pathfinder RPG, and that is an over-blending of the PRPG concept and the Golarion concept... I'm worried that the Pathfinder brand name is overly identified with all things Golarion, which, in the short term, means easy cross-marketing, but in the long term might limit the attractiveness of the Pathfinder rule-set to third-party publishers. If Necromancer creates a new adventure series using the Pathfinder rules, is everyone going to assume it's set in Golarion, and will this limit it's appeal to folks who aren't running Golarion campaigns?This is a legitimate concern, and it's something that we're keeping in mind. Our intention is to maintain a separation between the PF RPG and Golarion... We want folk to use the PF RPG books to run any number of games, be they set in Golarion or elsewhere.
I am glad to hear this. Quite frankly, the last thing I want is to buy is another world book for a campaign setting I'll never run. I also don't want to see the rules set so dependent on that campaign that I end up having to buy it in order to "get the full scope." I like good location books. I like good "theme" books. In both cases I usually want to drop them into an existing campaign, so I'd rather they stand on their own.
I also don't want to see re-treads of previous stuff. I can adjust stat blocks. Or, if you really want the stat blocks re-done, maybe have them done as a supplement to the original source material. Don't waste an entire book reprinting source material.
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I'll believe Necro will print something for Pathfinder when I see it.
And I wouldnt hold my breath for a revised GSL.
Their sitting out now, so their somewhat irrelevant until they wish to be relevant.
Well, regarding PFRPG, they have no choice but to sit out. Regarding 4e/GSL, it's a choice they've made (but one can hardly blame them for it...).
Well, regarding PFRPG, they have no choice but to sit out.
I'd bet that "sitting" is not the operative word at Necro ATM. I'd bet it is more something like "working their tails off to get something smashing by GenCon."
Well, regarding PFRPG, they have no choice but to sit out.I'd bet that "sitting" is not the operative word at Necro ATM. I'd bet it is more something like "working their tails off to get something smashing by GenCon."
If the first Necromancer PFRPG product to come out is a completely new work with 0% recycled material, I'll be surprised. I'm predicting a Pathfinderized version of the Tome of Horrors, personally.