Will Save... the new Concentration


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Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Proposal: Pull Concentration out of Spellcraft, and make it a Will Save.

Pro: Casters have Good Will Saves.
Pro: It makes more sense for non-casting/magic aspects of Concentration Checks

Con: have to re-scale the DCs to match Saves instead of Skill Ranks, which are usually much higher.

Liberty's Edge

Definitely not. This just swings the ball towards the full divine casters, much like making it Spellcraft (an Int-based skill) swings in Wizards' favour. The only good thing about Concentration was that it was Con-based, which is a relatively even stat between all spellcasting classes.

This also makes it even WORSE for half-casting classes like the Ranger who don't get a good save.


Alice Margatroid wrote:

Definitely not. This just swings the ball towards the full divine casters, much like making it Spellcraft (an Int-based skill) swings in Wizards' favour. The only good thing about Concentration was that it was Con-based, which is a relatively even stat between all spellcasting classes.

This also makes it even WORSE for half-casting classes like the Ranger who don't get a good save.

But DC for ranger and paladin will not raise as high since they're limited to 4th lvl spells at very high level.


selios wrote:
Alice Margatroid wrote:

Definitely not. This just swings the ball towards the full divine casters, much like making it Spellcraft (an Int-based skill) swings in Wizards' favour. The only good thing about Concentration was that it was Con-based, which is a relatively even stat between all spellcasting classes.

This also makes it even WORSE for half-casting classes like the Ranger who don't get a good save.

But DC for ranger and paladin will not raise as high since they're limited to 4th lvl spells at very high level.

The Will saving throw for the casters more than makes up for the difference. Heck with divine casters their higher wisdom more than makes up for the difference without even taking in to account the 3-5 point higher will save base.

A CON based check better represents the persons ability to take a hit without flinching.


I can see both con and wis. There's the stamina side, where high con helps you perform your tasks unflinchingly, but willpower's another big aspect here.

I do agree that intelligence is definetly not the right stat.

The will save idea does have merit: no need to introduce yet another skill, defensive casting is taken out of spellcraft, concentration (if we use it again) can be used for mundane things (or we just use will for that, too).

Sure, clerics will have an easier time casting defensively than wizards, but I think that's okay: They have to be good at this, since they are often right in the frey, either using their spells to buff themselves and beat others into pulp, or trying to keep the frontliners from dying.

Wizards usually hang back, so defensive casting ins't that important to them. And there's always combat casting if you want to be more in the frey.

Paladin's would be okay, too, since they will probably get strong will saves, anyway (and though their wisdom will probably no longer be that high, they do get charisma on the roll).

Only rangers might have a bit of a problem, but, honestly, I think that is a small enough sacrifice for a decent system. It's not as if rangers have that many combat spells, anyway, and many rangers are archers, anyway.

Let's look at the numbers for a moment. But let's first assume a couple of things:

  • Clerics (and Druids) start with Wis 16. With items and the like, their wis will go up to 17 (4th), 19 (5th), 20 (8th), 22 (9th), 23 (12th), 25 (13th), 26 (16th), 30 (20th).
  • Wizards start with Wis 12 and it doesn't increase at all.
  • Sorcerers also start with Wis 12, but they take combat casting (+4 on the save). Wizards aren't less likely to use combat casting, I just wanted to have a column with CC and one without. You can use them interchangeably
  • Paladins start with Wis 10, which doesn't increase. They Start with 14 Cha, which changes to 15 (4th), 17 (6th), 18 (8th), 20 (12th), 22 (16th), 26 (20th).
  • Rangers start with Wis 12, which changes to 14 (7th), 16 (10th), 18 (14th).
  • Res items are bought at 3rd (+1), 6th (+2), 8th (+3), 10th (+4), 12th (+5)

    The numbers could be wildly off, and it all depends on how much of an emphasis you want to put on different aspects: Cleics could concentrate on their spellcasting and go even higher on wis, Paladins could concentrate on charisma rather than strength, and so on.

    That brings us to the following chart for will saves, on average.

    Level Clr Wiz Sor Pal Rgr
    1 5 3 7 3 1
    2 6 4 8 6 1
    3 7 5 9 7 3
    4 8 6 10 8 3
    5 9 6 10 8 3
    6 11 8 12 11 5
    7 11 8 12 11 6
    8 14 10 14 14 7
    9 14 10 14 14 8
    10 17 12 16 16 10
    11 17 12 16 16 10
    12 19 14 18 19 12
    13 20 14 18 19 12
    14 21 15 19 20 13
    15 21 15 19 20 14
    16 23 16 20 22 14
    17 23 16 20 22 14
    18 24 17 21 23 15
    19 24 17 21 23 15
    20 27 18 22 26 15

    Assuming the DCs stay the same, it means that although the clerics do rock at this now (as they should), other classes aren't that bad off, either:

    Wizards/Sorcerers still have half-decent chances, especially if they use combat casting (and there's always iron will)

    Paladins now do very well. They really win this one, since they no longer have to use one of their few skill points for concentration/spellcraft just to be able to cast in combat.

    Rogues aren't that well off, I agree, but I'd say it's still better than before, since I just can't picture a ranger with ranks in spellcraft/concentration.

    I forgot bards, but they should be about the same as wizards.

    There will be less automatic successes around (except for clerics maybe), but that's not that much of a bad thing. Change the rule that if you fail the save, you still cast (but get an AoO), or that you can even choose (before the casting starts) whether you want to play it safe or not (so you can decide whether a failed save wastes the spell or provokes an AoO), and everything's fine. Martial classes with spellcasting actually get to have half-decent to really great chances for defensive casting without blowing skill points on something with such a minor use (basically all it does for your average ranger or paladin is improve one of their weaker abilities)


  • You know... we could avoid all those problems by simply keeping Concentration as a separate skill like it was in 3.5E. Sometimes more is more and it is more compatible to boot.

    It is not that I am particularly in love with the Concentration skill, but if change is going to cause this many issues, why not just stick to the tried and true method?

    Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

    Roman wrote:

    You know... we could avoid all those problems by simply keeping Concentration as a separate skill like it was in 3.5E. Sometimes more is more and it is more compatible to boot.

    It is not that I am particularly in love with the Concentration skill, but if change is going to cause this many issues, why not just stick to the tried and true method?

    I agree with this Roman, plus it helps backwards compatability with 3PP (like SOPM)

    I would even live with Concentration being Con based.

    In my skillset I roll autohypnosis into Con, making it wisdom based. This a) actually makes it worth taking for the monks and b) Helps with the sorcerer as mystic concept.

    FYI, Autohypnosis adds the following if rolled into concentration:
    Task DC
    Ignore caltrop wound 18
    Memorize 1 page of text 15
    Resist dying 20
    Resist fear Fear effect DC
    Tolerate poison Poison’s DC
    Willpower 20

    All of them, with the exception of resist fear and memorize would be explainable by a Con based skill as easily, I just prefer wisdom, since it's kind of the 'mental Constitution'

    Edit, I understand Jason wanting to remove the 'skill tax' I'd just prefer that instead Spellcraft be rolled into the knowledges (religion/arcane/psionic) and add other knowledges from there. Binder 'spellcraft' would be covered under Knowledge (planes) for example. Just give a -5 penalty if you're using one knowledge to figure out another knowledges Mojo.

    This would help cut down on the high priest recognizing a fireball being cast, or the archmage knowing that an implosion is about to go off.


    Dennis da Ogre wrote:

    The Will saving throw for the casters more than makes up for the difference. Heck with divine casters their higher wisdom more than makes up for the difference without even taking in to account the 3-5 point higher will save base.

    A CON based check better represents the persons ability to take a hit without flinching.

    Sure, I agree. I prefer myself CON based check, and I have finally decided to keep it like it was. Also it's better for compatibility.

    I'm using PRPG changes which are easily incorporated in my campaigns and not all rules.

    But in the case, will save is used, it does not really penalize ranger and paladin because DC for their spells will not raise as much compared to their level and will save.

    Scarab Sages

    Makes perfect sense to me,

    Wizards SHOULD have high levels of concentration...they're wizards!!!

    Monks would also benefit from this, and since they meditate so much, makes sense also.

    Paladins would get their Charisma added to their scores as well.


    Making it a Will save pretty much breaks compatibility with the Book of Nine Swords. The Diamond Mind discipline relies heavily on Concentration checks to pull off its maneuvers, many of them being Concentration vs AC. Will save vs AC with a low-Will class (which one of the two classes that get Diamond Mind maneuvers is) is just about impossible. Then there's the maneuver that replaces a Will save with a Concentration check (and one of the specific design reasons for that maneuver was that skill checks don't auto-fail on a 1 like saves do)...

    I prefer the "roll Concentration and Auto-Hypnosis together" solution.


    I like the Concentration = Autohypnosis idea and, while I think that the current PF split of theoretical and practical spell-casting is elegant, putting all spell-casting under appropriate Knowledge skills and all Concentration-type effects under the bundled Autohypnosis skill would be a lot simpler all round.

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    Arakhor wrote:
    I like the Concentration = Autohypnosis idea

    If Autohypnosis has uses that aren't specific to psionics, I'd be fine with this.

    If not, IMO the best solution is to use (caster level + ability mod). We've been doing this for months, and it's worked out very well. (Combat Casting becomes a useful feat again, which is nice.)


    The will save idea is poor considering another use of concentration: avoid losing spell due to damage. It should be hard, but a 10th level wizard hit by a 10th level fireball has no chance of making his will save. That's just not appropiate and even less compatible.


    Zurai wrote:
    Making it a Will save pretty much breaks compatibility with the Book of Nine Swords.

    You can still reinstate concentration you know.

    Plus, I'd be for a skill "concentration" or "meditation" that combines autohypnosis and other non-keep-casting uses of concentration. You can use that if you want to do feats of concentration without it being a must-have-skill for spellcasters.

    Jack Townsend wrote:
    The will save idea is poor considering another use of concentration: avoid losing spell due to damage. It should be hard, but a 10th level wizard hit by a 10th level fireball has no chance of making his will save.

    He had before? The DC, on average, is 45+ spell level, or 27+ spell level if you make your ref safe. The difference between old concentration bonuses and new will save bonuses isn't that high you know.


    Matthew Morris wrote:
    Roman wrote:

    You know... we could avoid all those problems by simply keeping Concentration as a separate skill like it was in 3.5E. Sometimes more is more and it is more compatible to boot.

    It is not that I am particularly in love with the Concentration skill, but if change is going to cause this many issues, why not just stick to the tried and true method?

    I agree with this Roman, plus it helps backwards compatability with 3PP (like SOPM)

    I would even live with Concentration being Con based.

    I agree that it makes logically more sense for Concentration to be Wisdom-based, due to its association with Willpower, but basing it on Constitution is probably better for balance and it is reasonable enough.

    Matthew Morris wrote:
    In my skillset I roll autohypnosis into Con, making it wisdom based. This a) actually makes it worth taking for the monks and b) Helps with the sorcerer as mystic concept.

    This is a great idea!

    Matthew Morris wrote:

    FYI, Autohypnosis adds the following if rolled into concentration:

    Task DC
    Ignore caltrop wound 18
    Memorize 1 page of text 15
    Resist dying 20
    Resist fear Fear effect DC
    Tolerate poison Poison’s DC
    Willpower 20

    All of them, with the exception of resist fear and memorize would be explainable by a Con based skill as easily, I just prefer wisdom, since it's kind of the 'mental Constitution'

    Perhaps we could simply remove memorization and resist fear from the new combined skill.

    Quote:
    Edit, I understand Jason wanting to remove the 'skill tax' I'd just prefer that instead Spellcraft be rolled into the knowledges (religion/arcane/psionic) and add other knowledges from there. Binder 'spellcraft' would be covered under Knowledge (planes) for example. Just give a -5 penalty if you're using one knowledge to figure out another knowledges Mojo.

    I completely agree. I have been wanting to get rid of Spellcraft and roll it under the Knowledge skills for a long time.

    Matthew Morris wrote:
    This would help cut down on the high priest recognizing a fireball being cast, or the archmage knowing that an implosion is about to go off.

    I was even stricter in my version of Spellcraft removal. Arcane spells only would be recognizable by Knowledge Arcana only, Divine spells only would be recognizable by Knowledge Religion only, etcetera.


    KaeYoss wrote:
    Jack Townsend wrote:
    The will save idea is poor considering another use of concentration: avoid losing spell due to damage. It should be hard, but a 10th level wizard hit by a 10th level fireball has no chance of making his will save.
    He had before? The DC, on average, is 45+ spell level, or 27+ spell level if you make your ref safe. The difference between old concentration bonuses and new will save bonuses isn't that high you know.

    A 10th level wizard using Spellcraft as Concentration will have (10 ranks + 3 class skill + 5 or 6 intelligence) at least a +18 to the roll. If he made the reflex save against the fireball, he'd thus have a +18 vs a DC 30. That's a 45% chance of success, which is pretty high. On the other hand, using a Will save, he's got only a +7 base Will save at level 10 and probably not much more from the Wisdom bonus. Let's be generous and give him a total of +10. That's a 5% chance to succeed if he makes the Reflex save - he has to roll a natural 20, which is an automatic success anyway.


    Jeff Wilder wrote:
    Arakhor wrote:
    I like the Concentration = Autohypnosis idea
    If Autohypnosis has uses that aren't specific to psionics, I'd be fine with this.

    Actually, very few of its uses are psionics-specific. It's actually a really useful skill; you can ignore ability damage from poison, can get an extra check stabilize yourself if you're bleeding out, etc.


    Zurai wrote:


    A 10th level wizard using Spellcraft as Concentration

    And thats the error right there. Spellcraft and its key ability Intelligence make very little sense. Of course, it gives wizards enormous bonuses to concentrated casting, but I think that they should actually be those who are worst at this sort of thing.

    I'm a pretty smart guy, in D&D terms I'd probably have 16 or more int. And I'm a D&D nut, so my spellcraft ranks would probably also be decent.

    But I tell you that this doesn't make me good at concentrating on stuff when there are distractions that require stamina or willpower (both of which aren't really among my strengths).

    And I've only experienced milder distractions so far. The worst I had to endure, I think, was writing a couple of tests while having a migraine. I never had to do word perfect renditions of things in dead languages while my whole body was subjected to third-degree burns or someone put a metre of steel into my guts. In fact, I never was subjected to that stuff at all.

    I'm quite sure I wouldn't be able to do anything like that, even though I'm quite smart and know a lot of stuff.

    Compare wizards using will saves with wizards using the good old concentration skill, and you see the numbers aren't that far off any more.


    KaeYoss wrote:

    Compare wizards using will saves with wizards using the good old concentration skill, and you see the numbers aren't that far off any more.

    Fine. 10th level Wizard with Concentration-as-a-Con-skill: 10 ranks + 3 class skill + 1-2 Constitution = 14-15. That's a 25% or 30% chance to make the check against the successful save vs a 5% chance if the Wizard had to make a Will save instead. Still not even in the same ballpark. 1 in 4 is a far cry from 1 in 20.


    Let's also remember that this check is required to keep the spell after taking damage too.

    So if a wizard is casting a summon monster 5 spell and takes 35 points of damage becuase he didn't realise just how close that giant really was he has a DC 50 (10 + 5 spell level + 35 damage) check of some sort to pass if he wants to keep the spell.

    With a will save this would be completely impossible* and even if the damage was 20 points less he still wouldn't make the save*.

    *are you going to allow natural 20's to be auto success still for these checks? If so I forsee Iron Will and Greater Iron Will being more popular.

    Now a DC 50 skill check is going to be next to impossible for most an adventurer's carreer, but if the damage is 20 points less the DC is 30... much more do able for a skill check.

    Also if the DC of casting defensively is going due to feats available to the enemy or by the enemies BAB a will save becomes a very power mechanic to use from the spellcaster's point of view (this was something mentioned on another thread).


    I have had a change of heart.

    My group is abolishing Spellcraft, that leaves us with 2 functions: Spell ID and Concentration.

    If we make Spell ID report to Knowledge Skills, that is biased toward Wizards.

    If we make Concentration a Will Save, that is biased toward Clerics, and druids.

    Seeing the two, side-by-side, I am strangely okay with that.

    But I will do you one better by making Concentration a Fort save. (DC = Damage. Spell level and an arbitrary 15 points are irrelevant.)

    Madness? Yes.

    It is a boon to Swordspell types, and it gives behind-the-line casters an incentive not to steal the fighter's glory. Caster Classes that are expected to survive in melee all have high fort saves. Caster classes that are supposed to play "quarterback" with arcane spells don't. Heck, we might even see a disrupted spell on occasion!

    Either way, I am disallowing "Casting Defensively." What is this rule for? Why would any caster not max out the skill in question (easier than ever now) and hit a low DC to avoid damage and another roll of the same skill at higher DC? The casters in my campaign are getting the following memo: if you're not tough enough to perform interpretive dance/recite poetry while being smacked repeatedly in the face, get behind the fighter!


    Zurai wrote:


    Fine. 10th level Wizard with Concentration-as-a-Con-skill: 10 ranks + 3 class skill + 1-2 Constitution = 14-15.

    Those numbers are okay. Your numbers for the will save aren't:

    He'll get a base save bonus of +7. Add to that something like +1 to +2 for wisdom, so you're at 8. Add to that the bonus for a resistance item (even without this rule, they're very important items, and with it, they become even more popular), and you're at around 11-14.

    Not that much of a difference.

    The damage range where the discrepancy does make a difference isn't that great I'd say: Either you're going to cast difensively, which will be a routine task pretty quickly, or you're going to be hit while casting and face DCs that are quite hard to beat.

    And there's always feats like Iron Will and Combat Casting (which would now add to your will save).

    In my opinion, it would work really well, and make a lot more sense than basing defensive casting on spellcraft, which really punishes those who need this ability the most: clerics. They used to be able to ignore intelligence and the spellcraft skill, which was good because they didn't exactly drown in skill points and also alwas had more bases to cover than a wizard. But now the class which is casting in melee the most becomes worst at doing it? Doesn't make sense.


    toyrobots wrote:


    Either way, I am disallowing "Casting Defensively." What is this rule for? Why would any caster not max out the skill in question (easier than ever now) and hit a low DC to avoid damage and another roll of the same skill at higher DC? The casters in my campaign are getting the following memo: if you're not tough enough to perform interpretive dance/recite poetry while being smacked repeatedly in the face, get behind the fighter!

    So even though everyone else can avoid AoO's from almost any action spellcasters can't?

    I mean it's obviously their fault for having someone sneak past the fighter.

    By that idea tumbling shouldn't prevent AoO's after all if you aren't tough enough to "perform interpretive dance" while being smacked you should get behind the fighter!


    Abraham spalding wrote:


    So even though everyone else can avoid AoO's from almost any action spellcasters can't?

    Well, archers are still hosed.


    KaeYoss wrote:
    Zurai wrote:


    Fine. 10th level Wizard with Concentration-as-a-Con-skill: 10 ranks + 3 class skill + 1-2 Constitution = 14-15.

    Those numbers are okay. Your numbers for the will save aren't:

    He'll get a base save bonus of +7. Add to that something like +1 to +2 for wisdom, so you're at 8. Add to that the bonus for a resistance item (even without this rule, they're very important items, and with it, they become even more popular), and you're at around 11-14.

    Not that much of a difference.

    I don't know many Wizards that bother to raise Wisdom above 10, and fewer that will get enhancement items for it (especially as they share the same slot as the Int items). Con is a far more likely stat to raise in both cases. As for a resistance item - sure, but bonuses to skill checks are MUCH larger and cheaper than bonuses to saving throws. You can get a +10 skill item for a slightly higher price than a +3 resistance item (10k vs 9k).


    I boost wisdom if I have the extra... but generally it's not my first pick to boost. It's also not all that hard for a wizard to get immunity to most of the things that require a will save.


    Zurai wrote:


    I don't know many Wizards that bother to raise Wisdom above 10, and fewer that will get enhancement items for it (especially as they share the same slot as the Int items).

    Well then good news everyone! We found a way to make wizards a little more dependant on more than just Int and maybe a little bit con and dex.

    Of course, that only goes for wizards who want to cast defensively instead of getting/staying out of harm's way.

    Zurai wrote:


    As for a resistance item - sure, but bonuses to skill checks are MUCH larger and cheaper than bonuses to saving throws. You can get a +10 skill item for a slightly higher price than a +3 resistance item (10k vs 9k).

    Save boosters are important already.

    But you're right: It's easy to get insane amounts of bonuses to the skills and thus make defensive casting an automatic success.

    The thing is: I don't think it should be that cheap and easy to make it an automatic success.


    If you put it on Will saves, now you're just back to favouring Wis-based casters and clerics and druids really do not need the extra help!

    Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

    Roman wrote:
    Matthew Morris wrote:
    Edit, I understand Jason wanting to remove the 'skill tax' I'd just prefer that instead Spellcraft be rolled into the knowledges (religion/arcane/psionic) and add other knowledges from there. Binder 'spellcraft' would be covered under Knowledge (planes) for example. Just give a -5 penalty if you're using one knowledge to figure out another knowledges Mojo.
    I was even stricter in my version of Spellcraft removal. Arcane spells only would be recognizable by Knowledge Arcana only, Divine spells only would be recognizable by Knowledge Religion only, etcetera.

    I thought about going that far, but I didn't want for the psion to be useless against the cleric, or the sorcerer to be unable to counter a bnder, etc.


    What if it went back to concentration check and the DC was: 15 + spell level x 2 (or x 3)?

    This would have the following DC's for casting defensively:

    Level 1 = DC 17 (18)
    Level 2 = DC 19 (20)
    Level 3 = DC 21 (22)
    Level 4 = DC 23 (24)
    Level 5 = DC 25 (26)
    Level 6 = DC 27 (28)
    Level 7 = DC 29 (30)
    Level 8 = DC 31 (32)
    Level 9 = DC 32 (33)

    Instead of the current max of 24


    KaeYoss wrote:

    But you're right: It's easy to get insane amounts of bonuses to the skills and thus make defensive casting an automatic success.

    The thing is: I don't think it should be that cheap and easy to make it an automatic success.

    I think I just got whiplash. First you say it's no big difference between skill checks and saves, now you say it's easy to make skill checks into auto-successes.

    A 10th level wizard (which is the example we've been using throughout the thread) won't be getting anywhere near an auto-success on a 10 die fireball (which is the example we've been using throughout the thread) if he fails his Reflex save - which he stands a good chance of doing. Average DC for a concentration check to maintain a spell through an average damage unsaved 10d6 fireball is 45+spell level (35 damage + 10 base + spell level). Even with a +10 concentration item, our wizard only has (10 ranks + 3 class skill + 1-2 constitution + 10 item) a +24-25 bonus. That's a 0% chance for success (unless casting a cantrip with a +2 con bonus), since a natural 20 isn't an automatic success on skill checks. Even if he does save, it's still not automatic: +24-25 vs DC 27+spell level. That's a 5-10% +5% per spell level failure rate.


    Arakhor wrote:
    If you put it on Will saves, now you're just back to favouring Wis-based casters and clerics and druids really do not need the extra help!

    Actually, they are more dependant on casting defensively than wizards, as clerics and druids are usually going toe to toe with enemies, while wizards hang back (or fly above).

    Plus, basing it off intelligence makes no sense at all. I'd like the will save version, and wouldn't mind a return of the concentration skill (maybe with some autohypnosis uses added), but int-based has to go.

    Zurai wrote:


    I think I just got whiplash. First you say it's no big difference between skill checks and saves, now you say it's easy to make skill checks into auto-successes.

    If you use items like a custom-made item of concentration (as far as I know, there is no existing item that enhances concentration, and I think that's because it's one of those things that should not be), you can indeed make the task trivial. But without that stuff, it is not necessarily trivial, and the difference between concentration and will saves won't be that much.

    Zurai wrote:


    A 10th level wizard (which is the example we've been using throughout the thread) won't be getting anywhere near an auto-success on a 10 die fireball (which is the example we've been using throughout the thread)

    Yeah, if you really are hit by a fireball during your casting, you're in trouble. But it's more common to be hit by a melee attack (with an AoO) than by a spell (at least in my experience, as not that many people use one-full-round spells or ready actions to cast spells at casting casters)

    Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

    I am floating around this idea... but it has problems (as nearly every solution does).

    How about this... basing this off a caster level check, combined with the casting statistic, while adjust DCs to keep the rough target a 50% chance for your highest level spell (something like 10 + 2x the spell level).

    This is even for each class.. and removes the skill point drain...

    Just some random thoughts...

    Jason Bulmahn
    Lead Designer
    Paizo Publishing


    Jason Bulmahn wrote:

    I am floating around this idea... but it has problems (as nearly every solution does).

    How about this... basing this off a caster level check, combined with the casting statistic, while adjust DCs to keep the rough target a 50% chance for your highest level spell (something like 10 + 2x the spell level).

    This is even for each class.. and removes the skill point drain...

    Just some random thoughts...

    Jason Bulmahn
    Lead Designer
    Paizo Publishing

    It is not a bad solution - probably the best one that does not entail keeping concentration as a skill. I would still prefer the suggestion by Mathew that Concentration be kept as a skill, but 'enhanced' by combining it with Autohypnosis (and I would say removing the two clearly non-Constitution-based effects), but your solution is pretty good too.


    Casting defensively should probably depend on the opponent trying to disrupt the caster. We could base that on the CMB!

    For example:

    DC to cast defensively = 10 + Highest Threatening CMB + Spell Level

    Or maybe to make it slightly easier:

    DC to cast defensively = 5 + Highest Threatening CMB + Spell Level


    While it might make the math a little harder, I agree with Roman that the enemies skill at arms (BAB) should matter for the purposes of casting defensively.

    I like the idea of a skill check for this and I agree that casting your highest level spell defensively should be 50/50 (adjusted slightly if the caster has spent feats on it).

    Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

    I'm not biased or anything...

    But I firmly think you should forgive concentration and let it back into the skillset. Just subsume (x)craft into knowlege.

    At least that's how I'm doing it in my home games.


    Jason Bulmahn wrote:

    I am floating around this idea... but it has problems (as nearly every solution does).

    How about this... basing this off a caster level check, combined with the casting statistic, while adjust DCs to keep the rough target a 50% chance for your highest level spell (something like 10 + 2x the spell level).

    This is even for each class.. and removes the skill point drain...

    The caster level check is probably the best solution that would be accepted by the players. That said, here's a rant about my solution, in the hopes that its madness will slowly infect your thought processes:

    I'm not sure that casting in melee should be even for each class. That's why I'm using a Fort save, which I know is crazy — but not as crazy as it might seem... while I really don't think it's viable for Pathfinder, I want to explain my reasoning at any rate.

    The casters with high fort saves are the ones who should be able to cast in melee (including multiclassers). Make it a Will save and you penalize multiclassers who already have enough going against them. A fighter-wizard should be better at casting in melee than a straight wizard, AFAIC. That's the same problem with the caster level approach. Fighter levels should make melee a friendlier place to the casting of spells, not worse.

    I'm going back to the notion that keeping a spell when struck is an act of physical toughness, not willpower. (This was the spirit of Concentration being the only Con-based skill, as well). This delineates various casters based on their intended battlefield role. Casting in melee should be avoided by pure casters, not something that they should feel is "covered" by a class ability or a maxed out skill. If a wizard really wants to cast while being harried in melee, he should have a high con score and a few feats to boost his fort save, or pick up a fighter level.

    I know that the fort save could never be a popular solution, so I'll generalize my argument: not all casters should be equal when it comes to casting in melee... and I'm not convinced the wizard should reign supreme at this, since it runs contrary to their traditional role. Fighter-Wizard Multis, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Rangers should probably be better at casting spells in melee than a wizard, and Will Save / Spellcraft / Concentration / Caster Level don't model that.


    Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

    I don't see why it can't just be an ability check using the key ability for the character in question? If its a Wizard its Int, if its a Sorcerer its Cha. If its a Cleric or Druid its Wis. Then set the DC to something with a reasonable chance for failure and don't screw one class or another just because its a Will save and they happen to have a lesser Will save compared to the other classes. You still then run into a problem where you have to scale the DC's or at some point the failure chance effectively disappears. Just make it an ability check, something like DC10+spell level.

    If you have a 1st level Wizard with a 16 Int trying to cast Magic Missile in a threatened area he rolls 1d20+3 (his int mod) vs. a DC 11 (10 + spell level). He needs an 8 or better, which means he succeeds 65% of the time.

    A 10th level cleric with a 20 Wisdom casting a 5th level spell would roll 1d20+5 vs. DC15 (10 + spell level) or a 10 or better, effectively a 55% chance of success. On the flip-side, if that cleric was to cast a 1st level spell he would only need a 6 or better, effectively a 75% chance of success. This seems very straightforward, doesn't penalize one class or another by tieing it to a Fort or Will save, and even allows the character who really boosts his class key stat to make headway towards really increasing his chances of succeeding when casting defensively etc.

    Just some thoughts.


    jreyst wrote:
    I don't see why it can't just be an ability check using the key ability for the character in question?

    I like this idea as well, since it doesn't feel as much like an "exception." Ability checks are underused. I'm sure we'd see complaints about it not scaling with level, as well.

    A Cleric being Wiser and and a Wizard being more Intelligent doesn't really mean they should be able to cast in melee more effectively. Concentration was Constitution based, because casting in melee is something that should be the province of tough casters, not experienced or talented casters.

    We shouldn't have a system that promotes pure casters' ability to cast in melee. A character who tries to make a melee survivable character (such as a melee sorcerer) by taking up a Fighter level must necessarily commit some ability points to his non-casting abilities. When melee casting was bolstered by Constitution, this was not a problem.

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    Hey, Jason.

    I don't have a philosophical problem with upping the (CL + mod) DC to use (2 x Spell Level), but be aware of what you're doing. In 3.5, it was eventually possible to auto-succeed on Concentration checks to cast defensively, and given how easy the math is to see, I have to believe that was intentional. (THe logic was probably that a caster being threatened was in enough trouble already.)

    If that dynamic is changed, so that effectively a caster has a 50 percent (approximately) change of doing nothing but wasting a very good resource, that's going to have pretty serious repercussions in combat.

    Now my wacky idea for the day:

    How about keeping Concentration, and add utility: it can be used to prevent AoOs for anything? Scale the DC based on the activity in question and on whether there's another skill that's more appropriate.

    Drinking a potion? DC is 15 + BAB
    Standing up from prone? DC is 20 plus BAB
    Moving out of a square? DC is 20 + BAB

    If you fail the check, you don't do what you were trying to do and either the resource is wasted -- "I spilled the damn healing potion!" -- or you provoke as normal.

    And so on. Maintains backward compatibility, maintains a Con-based skill, doesn't favor any particular class, and pretty useful, even if you have an overlapping skill like Acrobatics.

    The downside would be figuring good DCs for the various things that normally provoke.

    Anyway, like I said: Wacky.


    Jeff Wilder wrote:

    repercussions in combat.

    Now my wacky idea for the day:

    How about keeping Concentration, and add utility: it can be used to prevent AoOs for anything?

    Didn't Neverwinter Nights have something like this? I think they called the skill "Discipline" or somesuch.


    Jason Bulmahn wrote:

    I am floating around this idea... but it has problems (as nearly every solution does).

    How about this... basing this off a caster level check, combined with the casting statistic, while adjust DCs to keep the rough target a 50% chance for your highest level spell (something like 10 + 2x the spell level).

    This is even for each class.. and removes the skill point drain...

    Just some random thoughts...

    Jason Bulmahn
    Lead Designer
    Paizo Publishing

    Looks good. It does address the skill drain problematic (which I dislike more for the fact that you need a skill to use a core ability, though of course skill tax isn't good, either), and doesn't unduly favour one class or the other (wizards will probably be still among the best in this, since they can focus more on their casting attribut, but it's not learly as pronounced as before).

    Now, if learning new spells for wizards is turned into something like this, the skill system is nearing perfection (that part of spellcraft is only useful to wizards, so I think it should not be part of a skill at all)

    toyrobots wrote:


    Didn't Neverwinter Nights have something like this? I think they called the skill "Discipline" or somesuch.

    I never looked too much into that weird new skill, but I think it was used as a parry against combat manoeuvres like trip and/or disarm.


    Abraham spalding wrote:

    What if it went back to concentration check and the DC was: 15 + spell level x 2 (or x 3)?

    This would have the following DC's for casting defensively:

    Level 1 = DC 17 (18)
    Level 2 = DC 19 (20)
    Level 3 = DC 21 (22)
    Level 4 = DC 23 (24)
    Level 5 = DC 25 (26)
    Level 6 = DC 27 (28)
    Level 7 = DC 29 (30)
    Level 8 = DC 31 (32)
    Level 9 = DC 32 (33)

    Instead of the current max of 24

    I've used to add 2xspell level to concentration and spellcraft checks for years, and it works really well.


    I've been mulling over a lot of formulas to make concentration checks work and I think the following one to be the best overall. Basically, it takes its queue from the Combat Maneuvers formula:

    Casting Defensively is a Caster Level check;
    DC = 10 + opponent's BAB

    Taking Damage while casting a spell requires a caster level check to maintain the spell;
    DC = 15 + damage taken

    The former takes into account a combatant vs. a caster of equal competence in their areas of expertise, with the caster having roughly a 50% chance of succeeding in casting a spell. (regardless of level) It keeps chances for success the same at any level of play.

    It also introduces an unknown DC for the caster, who must weigh his chances upon an educated guess of his opponent's combat ability.

    The latter tries to account for the intent to stop a spell from being cast with a higher base DC. (15)

    As an aside, it would also be interesting if spell casters had spells that didn't need a defensive casting check when threatened. The spells that require melee touch attacks come to mind, and don't seem to get used much. This might be a niche for those types of spells. (I'm thinking of spells such as burning hands, chill touch and vampiric touch)

    I think an additional effect would be that casters would tend resort to spell trigger items more often when threatened in melee than resort to casting defensively as it would be less reliable.

    What do you think?


    I like it anthony but I would suggest making the casting defensively thus:

    DC 10 + opponent's BAB + spell level.

    I don't think the DC for keeping a spell after being damage is bad right now. As "little" as 20 points of damage on a 3rd level spell is going to be DC 33. It is diffinently going to be difficult, which it should be, but the wizard is going to have a chance.


    anthony Valente wrote:

    I've been mulling over a lot of formulas to make concentration checks work and I think the following one to be the best overall. Basically, it takes its queue from the Combat Maneuvers formula:

    Casting Defensively is a Caster Level check;
    DC = 10 + opponent's BAB

    The problem I see here, is that even with the lowest level spells, it's hard to succed on casting defensively.

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    Adding in BAB to Acrobatics to avoid AoOs works for me, because it adds in a scaling opposing force.

    Casting Defensively already has a scaling opposing force: the spell level. Adding in another one is basically a double-whammy.

    If BAB is added to the DC for Casting Defensively, spell level should not be. You could then just use the same DC as for Acrobatics: 15 + BAB.

    -- Jeff

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

    If we move concentration off of the (x)craft skill, and on to a caster level check what do I do if I want to improve the value? I used to have skill focus, and defensive caster feats to buff my rolls, they weren't required, but they were a choice for people who knew they were going to be making a lot of rolls, what now?


    Abraham spalding wrote:

    I like it anthony but I would suggest making the casting defensively thus:

    DC 10 + opponent's BAB + spell level.

    I don't think the DC for keeping a spell after being damage is bad right now. As "little" as 20 points of damage on a 3rd level spell is going to be DC 33. It is diffinently going to be difficult, which it should be, but the wizard is going to have a chance.

    I've thought about working with the spell level component in. But what I find is that the caster gets worse at casting his good spells as he rises in level, which may or may not be bad.

    For example: (w/ the caster using highest level spell he can cast)

    1st level caster vs. BAB +1
    DC = 11 (10+1) vs. CL = 1 ... 50% chance success

    10th level caster vs. BAB +10
    DC = 25 (10+10+5) vs. CL = 10 ... 30% chance of success

    20th level caster vs. BAB +20
    DC = 39 (10+20+9) vs. CL = 20 ... 10% chance of success

    So what happens is a caster will always have a 50% chance of getting a 1st level spell off in a fight vs. a melee of equivalent competence and then higher level spells go down from there. Like I said, I'm not sure it's a bad thing, but the melee gains the advantage as the level of the game goes up when the caster must cast defensively. Also keep in mind that the caster doesn't exactly know his DC, but must guess.

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