I love Quitelys stuff with Morrison, you ever get into Paul Chadwicks art on Concrete or Geoff Darrows stuff?
As far as Liefelds art goes, I fell into it when Image formed. I was onto it from Deadpool in the New Mutants/XForce. (Yes I own 5 copies of XForce #1 with different trading cards polybagged in with the books...sigh). I was their perfect customer. Bought Valentinos Shadowhawk, Portacios Wetworks, Larsons Savage Dragon, all that stuff. Loved Keowns Pitt and other spinoffs and subsets of the Image canon. Till Boof and the Bruise Crew that was the first time I really started noticing the blatant rips the group was pulling. McFarlanes weird numbering of and releasing of Spawn books definitely hurt them too. I think Giffens parody XFarce came out then and I counted how many pouches Cable had attached to his body. WAY TOO MANY!
RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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Not sure I wanna see the Jabba part on that one....Wow Krome, that is a pretty jaded look at things. You really have to seperate who you are writing for, and what you are writing. Screenplays, novels, etc are much less restricted (as pointed out by the SNG example)Movies are "it's like Star Wars, but they're all lesbians,"
Rosie O'donnel comes to mind.
Echee nutu bwata, George Bush...
That's my point. If you're good enough, you can be creative within whichever guidelines are given to you.Creativity can't be constrained - if an author or screenwriter is good enough, his work will be good even when he's writing to someone else's rules. In fact, he will stand out more with a good story that's written to someone else's rules. It makes people curious what kind of stories he can write when given free reign.Actually, most successful authors have to show that they can write within a publisher's guidelines before they get the chance to go beyond them.
Sorry. I didn't realize until after I had posted. (which is why that post was deleted - but not before others were responding. :( )
Writing is NOT about creativity. It's about Money. A publisher is in the business of selling Books or Magazines - not displaying Art or promoting Literature. They are looking for what THEY want, WHEN they want it in the WAY they want it. Period. If you can sneak interesting, different and Creative writing in between their formulaic demands GREAT! They Love that! But in the mean time - the rest of your work had better conform to what they want.
Krome, man, I dont know. There is some truth to that. But there is a good deal of creativity, too. For instance, not everything is on spec. Some stuff is manuscript submission. For instance, if Boomer sent me a 180 page book manunscript full of Boomery goodness (or Jason or Christine or Russ or anyone who I like), I;d find a way to get that mofo printed. (I've told him that, by the way).
Your post is correct when you are talking about writing on spec for a writing assignment. For istance, if I am developing a campaign book and divvy a chapter out to each of 6 writers, they better come in on word count and within parameters, yes. But that isnt all how writing goes in this or any biz. There is room for creativity. But that is usually done on your dime first and maybe someone will publish it.
Writing, for me, will always be about creativity. If it isnt, I dont want to do it. But that said, I also have a strong understanding of the professional parameters of a project and I dont chafe under them. So the two can coexist. Structure and rigidity dont mean lack of creativity. It just takes more work. I mean, look at a haiku, for instance. I cant think of anythign more structured and rigid and yet creative and beautiful.
Writing, for me, will always be about creativity. If it isnt, I dont want to do it. But that said, I also have a strong understanding of the professional parameters of a project and I dont chafe under them. So the two can coexist. Structure and rigidity dont mean lack of creativity. It just takes more work. I mean, look at a haiku, for instance. I cant think of anythign more structured and rigid and yet creative and beautiful.
Law writing? Yikes.
I spent 3 weeks researching patents last November and I truly feel for the guys who have to write them.
But then Clark doesn't have to do that...
;)
Writing, for me, will always be about creativity. If it isnt, I dont want to do it. But that said, I also have a strong understanding of the professional parameters of a project and I dont chafe under them. So the two can coexist. Structure and rigidity dont mean lack of creativity. It just takes more work. I mean, look at a haiku, for instance. I cant think of anythign more structured and rigid and yet creative and beautiful.
The man talks sense.
Law writing? Yikes.
That is something different entirely.
That is something different entirely.
Law writing? Yikes.
More than entirely different. About as far as you can possibly get from writing creatively. Researching patents shook me to my soul. I wished to be illiterate.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4
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For instance, if Boomer sent me a 180 page book manunscript full of Boomery goodness (or Jason or Christine or Russ or anyone who I like), I;d find a way to get that mofo printed. (I've told him that, by the way).
It's true. He has told me that.
And it is still the MOST FLATTERING THING I'VE EVER HEARD.
As to the business of writing - I work at a bar. I am a bartender. I made more at that bar this last weekend than I've made in the last year of writing semi-professionally.
Serving beers & shots over the course of three eight-hour shifts, I made more cash than I've so far seen from one hardcover book (the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting), a softcover book (PC Pearls from Goodman Games), two .pdf down-loadable works (The Third Riddle Pathfinder Society Scenario and Death in the Starlit Expanse from Reality Deviant Press), and two published item on the Kobold Quarterly website.
Not to mention INFINITY PERCENT more than I've made in the last two years and a half years of doing the D&D PHB PSAs on Youtube.
But what do I daydream about between scrubbing out shot-glasses and restocking beer?
D&D.
There is one, and ONLY one, reason to write: because if you didn't do it, you would have to jam your thumbs into your eye-sockets until you could touch your brain, and then rip it out of your skull through the front of your face.
And then set your own brain on fire, just to make the voices stop.
If you are writing for any other reason, stop right now.
I am curious though, how many magazine articles, adventures, stories, novels and books have you had published?Van Gogh was an utter failure as an artist by these standards. He sold a few paintings to his brother-in-law who felt sorry for him.
Oh dear, this discussion again...
I have seen, read and heard great stuff by people who happily embrace their amateur status and don't try to make a living out of their writing/painting/music/whatever. Eg. some of the best comics I have ever read have been done by self-publishers and non-profit publishers (some of the worst too, so I don't romantize that so much), where the main goal is to make enough money to cover publishing costs, and everything else is a nice extra.This might be something to look at by artists like Van Gogh: it is possible to do art which is not concerned about making money, but then one cannot be upset if the thing does not make money. Personal decisions need to be made. To go back to ancient Rome and ascentic philosopher Diogenes...His fellow philosophers said to him: If you would flatter the emperor, you would earn enough money that you don't have to live on lentils. Diogenes replied: I live on lentils so I don't have to flatter the emperor.
On this note I can say one thing about myself: I do not want to be a professional RPG writer. Or a professional artist in general.
This seems to be one thing I have seen in a general way in many fields of life between USA and Europe...many Americans seem to be much more concerned about money and being a successful professional, while many Europeans seem to (ironically enough) favor independence and doing their own things, and if someone else happens to like them, great! (In the realm of genre writing, Stanislaw Lem and Poul Anderson did come at odds about the subject in 80's when Lem criticized publicly some remarks of Anderson, which were pretty much in the spirit of the OP of this thread).
Exceptions of course exist, and in some forms one way is more successful and in others the other. But comparing, say, sold units is taking a one-sided view to a multi-sided question and assumes everyone shares goals.
Oh, and I am not suggesting that good art and money cannot exist together, and I know several examples where a good editor have done wonders to an auteur's original work...
On the other matter mentioned, I do agree that applying some constraints and limitations can and often does produce much better work than complete "I can do whatever I want" liberty and limitless options.
But for the best effect those constraints are self-imposed: choosing to write a haiku tends to produce better haikus than being forced to write a haiku, when you wanted to do a sonnet.
There is one, and ONLY one, reason to write: because if you didn't do it, you would have to jam your thumbs into your eye-sockets until you could touch your brain, and then rip it out of your skull through the front of your face.
And then set your own brain on fire, just to make the voices stop.
If you are writing for any other reason, stop right now.
I just read The Writer's Tale by Russell T Davies & Benjamin Cook.
Davies is the guy responsible for bringing back Doctor Who to the TV screen after it had been in limbo (one TVM aside) since 1989, and turning it into must-watch TV on 14 nights a year.
He has to work to production deadlines, screen time, FX budgets, casting availability and 1001 other constraints. And, last season, wrote four of the best scripts the series has seen.
He, too, writes because it would pour out of him somehow, anyway. Even at 3 in the morning, when he can't work out how to fit an extra character into Episode 13 and he's about to fall over with Chicken Pox, he's writing.
Both the book, and this contest, have fired my creative juices. I just need to find the time to do some writing properly.
The ten minutes waiting to collect take-out food I spent scribbling on the back of an envelope last night don't really count ;)
As to the business of writing - I work at a bar. I am a bartender. I made more at that bar this last weekend than I've made in the last year of writing semi-professionally.
I was a bartender. Now I write for money.
My pay is much higher now.
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Krome, man, I dont know. There is some truth to that. But there is a good deal of creativity, too. For instance, not everything is on spec. Some stuff is manuscript submission. For instance, if Boomer sent me a 180 page book manunscript full of Boomery goodness (or Jason or Christine or Russ or anyone who I like), I;d find a way to get that mofo printed. (I've told him that, by the way).
Your post is correct when you are talking about writing on spec for a writing assignment. For istance, if I am developing a campaign book and divvy a chapter out to each of 6 writers, they better come in on word count and within parameters, yes. But that isnt all how writing goes in this or any biz. There is room for creativity. But that is usually done on your dime first and maybe someone will publish it.
Thank you Clark. I have always believed that creative genius that lifts people up is gold for a publisher. But like gold, it may be unreachable if the "shiny stuff" is too difficult to get to.
I do feel there is a middle ground where a publisher trusts talent, and the writer works hard to deliver that talent when it is due. If the relationship is productive and enjoyable for both, then I think that is synergy. Developing this trusting relationship is very hard to do, but once it is there I feel that many creative doors will open.
Cheers,
Zuxius
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There is one, and ONLY one, reason to write: because if you didn't do it, you would have to jam your thumbs into your eye-sockets until you could touch your brain, and then rip it out of your skull through the front of your face.
And then set your own brain on fire, just to make the voices stop.
Damn, that reminds me. Reading these posts got me so fired up that I forgot to take my medicine. You've got to take your medicine.
Cheers,
Zuxius
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
aka Tarren Dei
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As to the business of writing - I work at a bar. I am a bartender. I made more at that bar this last weekend than I've made in the last year of writing semi-professionally.I was a bartender. Now I write for money.
My pay is much higher now.
Porn pays that well?
Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7
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As to the business of writing - I work at a bar. I am a bartender. I made more at that bar this last weekend than I've made in the last year of writing semi-professionally.I was a bartender. Now I write for money.
My pay is much higher now.
Yeah, but did you dress like this for tips? (NSFW-Language, and, oh, let's say ... nipples)
There is one, and ONLY one, reason to write: because if you didn't do it, you would have to jam your thumbs into your eye-sockets until you could touch your brain, and then rip it out of your skull through the front of your face.And then set your own brain on fire, just to make the voices stop.
ok i done the eyes thing now how do i finf the matches to set the braon in fire? cant see. ow. ow.
Generally speaking I've found that structure and limitations can actually add to the potential creativity of a project.
Take Star Wars for example. In the original movies (IV-VI) Lucas was greatly limited by what special effects could be created, budget concerns, the fact that there was nothing to base the idea off of and the fact that the story itself had to in some ways be limited by all of these factors. Sure he wanted to do more with it, but was unable to given his restrictions.
The movies were incredible and obviously made a huge impact on movie making in general
But then we have the second set of movies (I-III) where there were none of those restrictions. Lucas basically had enough money to throw at it to do anything he wanted, it was already established as an idea and overall there were little to no limitations to the project.
That set of movies were, imho, ok but lacked some of the feel of the original movies. In some ways it felt somewhat disjointed and showed that whatever Lucas thought of he chose to throw on the screen. And overall they had less impact on the overall psyche of the average moviegoer. (How many times do you quote the original three vs. the ewer three?)
The point being that limitations can in fact direct and add to the creative process rather than stop it all together.
Generally speaking I've found that structure and limitations can actually add to the potential creativity of a project.
Take Star Wars for example. In the original movies (IV-VI) Lucas was greatly limited by what special effects could be created, budget concerns, the fact that there was nothing to base the idea off of and the fact that the story itself had to in some ways be limited by all of these factors. Sure he wanted to do more with it, but was unable to given his restrictions.
The movies were incredible and obviously made a huge impact on movie making in general
But then we have the second set of movies (I-III) where there were none of those restrictions. Lucas basically had enough money to throw at it to do anything he wanted, it was already established as an idea and overall there were little to no limitations to the project.
That set of movies were, imho, ok but lacked some of the feel of the original movies. In some ways it felt somewhat disjointed and showed that whatever Lucas thought of he chose to throw on the screen. And overall they had less impact on the overall psyche of the average moviegoer. (How many times do you quote the original three vs. the ewer three?)
The point being that limitations can in fact direct and add to the creative process rather than stop it all together.
Slight tangent:
I don't disagree with your assessment, but I think an important factor is that Lucas didn't have limitations for the Prequels (and Clone Wars, etc) because he was the producer and bankrolling it himself. Who was going to tell George "that sucks, rewrite the scene or cut it" when he is doing a one-man show and signing the paychecks, regardless of being a SW fanboy or not.
Back on topic:
IMHO, the Prequels were the equivalent of self-publishing, so he could do whatever he wanted. Any limitations were self-imposed, and he had an unlimited budget.
The original Trilogy was more like the equivalent of working with an editor/publishing company... although he probably had a lot more editorial control himself with Empire and Jedi after the truckloads of cash came in after New Hope.
Hah! well said Krome, I guess the lots of people complaining made you start up this thread.
[my2cents]For anyone who cares: I'm a graphic designer and I love to do illustration, yet its one of the less profitable areas on my profession... and of course when you actually have a chance to make money out of it, is not doing what you want, is doing what they ask you to do! Its always nice to do what you love to do even if its not exactly what you want to do. Employment means to get the money ou need to live and afford the things you love the most. I bet the folks at Paizo LOVE what they do but are up to their noses with Pathfinder assignments and many of them may be wishing to develop their own campaigns or other more "personal" RPG stuff. So, this is the world we live in and if we want OTHER people to check -and love- our work whe need to play the game. I abandoned my career to find a more profitable path and it worked. When I felt a bit empty I went back to pursue my dream and picked up thecrayons again. Luckly I found a proper place to start up and a nice way to do it and voila! 4 months later its a great place to be. How did this turned out so nice is this short time? I did what people asked me to do, while doing the stuff I love to do. We "creative" people tend to be a bit jealous of our work and sometimes a tad "arrogant" to defend our ideas, yet if we want to share these ideas we have to level up with the public we seek and play along, if not, then stay at your studio and keep your work to yourself and you won't be judged and will be able to do as you please.
As Heathy said, even geniuses get their stuff trashed by LOTS of people, so take it the good way, learn, improve, and keep going at it! [/my2cents]
How many times do you quote the original three vs. the newer three?
Hold me like you did on Naboo!
More than entirely different. About as far as you can possibly get from writing creatively. Researching patents shook me to my soul. I wished to be illiterate.That is something different entirely.
Law writing? Yikes.
lol! Yeah I can imagine. You have my sympathy and condolences.
There is one, and ONLY one, reason to write: because if you didn't do it, you would have to jam your thumbs into your eye-sockets until you could touch your brain, and then rip it out of your skull through the front of your face.And then set your own brain on fire, just to make the voices stop.
If you are writing for any other reason, stop right now.
Amen, brother. Great to hear some people making sense now. :D
Creative Director
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To echo a lot of what's been said here, creativity IS an important part of writing. For novels and RPGs and the like, it's THE most important part, I think. But other things, like spelling and grammar and the ability to hit deadlines and the ability to deliver product that accomplishes what we want it to do in the first place is also important, and if you're creative but fail in many or even some of the other categories, you'll fail as a RPG writer.
It's worth noting as well that the RPG Superstar is NOT all about writing and creativity; that's certainly an important element, but someone who's only creative can probably only ever ascend as high as RPG Star. To be a SUPERstar you have to be more than that.
Since we're all gamers, let's look at it this way.
RULES FOR BEING A SUCCESSFUL RPG WRITER
In order to become a successful RPG writer, you must have a total Game Designer (GD) score of 60. GD points can be spent on the following categories, but each category has a limit on how many points can be spent on it. In order to achieve enough points to be a RPG writer, you must spend points across multiple disciplines, and must spend a minimum of 3 points in each of the categories. Average normal human skill in a discipline is 5.
You have 60 points to spend in total among the following disciplines; the maximum points you can place in a discipline is listed in parenthesis after the discipline's name.
Creativity (10): This is how imaginative you are.
Spelling (8): This is your ability to spell words correctly.
Grammar (10): This is your ability to actually write clearly.
Map Drawing (8): This is your ability to create a legible, interesting, and clean map.
Deadline Punctuality (10): This is your ability to turn over work on time to the editor.
Availability (8): This is how good you are about replying to questions the editor may have.
Focus (8): This is your ability to provide the editor the type of content he asks for.
Rules Lore (10): This is your grasp of the rules of the game.
Humility (8): This is your ability to swallow your pride and accept that your ideas can be enhanced by input from others.
Ego (8): This is your ability to stand up and defend your design decisions.
Each time a project is completed, you gain 5 more points to add to your disciplines.
Anyway... that's obviously a sort of goofy way to go about it, and the whole thing's kinda stretched thin (and I'm sure I forgot a few important disciplines), but my point is: It takes more than creativity to succeed at RPG writing and to succeed at RPG Superstar.
Trust JJ to make a minigame about being a successful game designer. :p
So...wait. Is that going to be JJ's next campaign? ;-D
--Neil
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
aka Tarren Dei
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Let me be the first to say I think we should streamline this skill list and fold 'spelling' and 'grammar' into one skill called 'mechanics'. I also think 'availability' and 'deadline punctuality' could be one skill but don't have a good name for it.
;-)
EDIT: You know, looking over this list, I think I stack up pretty well. I'm not so sure about the creativity because there are some really creative people on these boards, but most of the other stuff I've got down.
Clearly we need a public beta test of James' rules.
Since we're all gamers, let's look at it this way.
RULES FOR BEING A SUCCESSFUL RPG WRITER
In order to become a successful RPG writer, you must have a total Game Designer (GD) score of 60. GD points can be spent on the following categories, but each category has a limit on how many points can be spent on it. In order to achieve enough points to be a RPG writer, you must spend points across multiple disciplines, and must spend a minimum of 3 points in each of the categories. Average normal human skill in a discipline is 5.You have 60 points to spend in total among the following disciplines; the maximum points you can place in a discipline is listed in parenthesis after the discipline's name.
[rant]
This game sucks!! This isn't backwards compatible to 3.5 at all!!
[/rant]
Sorry ... I just couldn't resist. *grin*
CR
And may I just ask...
...WHERE are the prestige classes for this newly proposed game?!
Good point. What if I want to be an "old school designer"? I mean, come on James... I would clearly need the "Anachronistic Mechanic" feat or maybe 6 ranks in Gygaxian Grammar.
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Star Voter Season 6
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Slight tangent:
I don't disagree with your assessment, but I think an important factor is that Lucas didn't have limitations for the Prequels (and Clone Wars, etc) because he was the producer and bankrolling it himself. Who was going to tell George "that sucks, rewrite the scene or cut it" when he is doing a one-man show and signing the paychecks, regardless of being a SW fanboy or not.
Honestly, I think that's where problems lay in doing anything without restrictions. I'm not going to attack Star Wars I-III here (though I'd love to), but if the above is the case, then it was evident in the end.
Back when I used to have tons of time to write (when I was in High School and was leader of a Drama Club and they needed scripts), I had deadline and a time requirement (Sears Drama Festival doesn't allow beyond 50 minutes. Oh, and you have a certain amount of time from the start of school to when someone has to actually choose a play). It helped. The number one thing wrong with student plays is that they are drawn out messes where every character gets 4 monologues and 3 side quests... erm, plot lines. This allowed me to trim that, and I got an award for writing my play.
aka Robert G. McCreary
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Good point. What if I want to be an "old school designer"? I mean, come on James... I would clearly need the "Anachronistic Mechanic" feat or maybe 6 ranks in Gygaxian Grammar.
Ugh. I've been reading through Castle Zagyg: The Upper Works recently, and I noticed it had started creeping into my current freelance assignment!
I have since decided to stop reading it until I finish that assignment. I'm sure Paizo has better things to do than translate my turnover from Gygaxian to English... :)
...it makes you EMPLOYED.
Damn, I hate being employed. Just waking up every morning feeling how sore my cheeks are from all the puckering up makes me sick. And like it's not enough that I have to smile and play nice with all these humans, it doesn't take me long to realise that 90% of all humans are jerks, bastards, and just plain a**holes.
If it wouldn't mean that I couldn't buy books from paizo (and possibly starve to death), I would quit my job in a second. Because being employd sucks all the living out of life, and instead you just conform to some kind of zombie-existence for 8 or more hours a day after which you are too tired to do anything "fun" or "creative" anyway.
...
Sorry if I got a bit off topic.
Trust JJ to make a minigame about being a successful game designer. :p
I'm tempted to stat myself out. :D
RULES FOR BEING A SUCCESSFUL RPG WRITER
You have 60 points to spend in total among the following disciplines; the maximum points you can place in a discipline is listed in parenthesis after the discipline's name.
Creativity (10): 7
Spelling (8): 3
Grammar (10): 3
Map Drawing (8): 8 +2 sinergy :P
Deadline Punctuality (10): 8
Availability (8): 6
Focus (8): 7
Rules Lore (10): 7
Humility (8): 6
Ego (8): 5
Hehehe, couldn't resist it :D
Each time a project is completed, you gain 5 more points to add to your disciplines.
I think we need a rule clarification for the above. Is this a paid project, and how big is a project (in wordcount)?
Please help.
Spelling (8): 3 ... Map Drawing (8): 8 +2 sinergy :P
Considering it's spelled "synergy" I can see why you rated yourself a "3" in spelling. ;-p
Regardless, that's an impressive map-making skill with or without the bonus. Well done, sir!
--Neil
Spelling (8): 3 ... Map Drawing (8): 8 +2 sinergy :PConsidering it's spelled "synergy" I can see why you rated yourself a "3" in spelling. ;-p
That was intentional (hehehe...not!)
And I thank the Golarion gods for leaving the "Write proper English" line out :D
Clearly we need a public beta test of James' rules.Clearly. Let's call it RPG Superstar 2009.
Actually that does sound like a pretty good description of what the RPG Superstar is all about. :D
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...it makes you EMPLOYED.Damn, I hate being employed. Just waking up every morning feeling how sore my cheeks are from all the puckering up makes me sick. And like it's not enough that I have to smile and play nice with all these humans, it doesn't take me long to realise that 90% of all humans are jerks, bastards, and just plain a**holes.
If it wouldn't mean that I couldn't buy books from paizo (and possibly starve to death), I would quit my job in a second. Because being employd sucks all the living out of life, and instead you just conform to some kind of zombie-existence for 8 or more hours a day after which you are too tired to do anything "fun" or "creative" anyway.
...
Sorry if I got a bit off topic.
You had a bad day at work as well, I see ;)