Hello,
I want to know a stupid thing: A rogue, with two weapon fighting and so on, who has on BA: dagger +11/+6 and dagger +11/+6.
If he has the initiative on his opponent during the first round, each of the four attacks he made in this round are sneak attacks?
So the 4 attacks during this round are sneak attacks?
Thanks!
If he makes a full attack, yes. Would be the same if the opponent was flanked. It's the same as in 3.5.
Powerful! Incredible! 4 sneak attack, OK for him and not for his opponents :-)
Thanks a lot! Because in my mind, it was like a smite, so only one smite even if it a full attack (with 4 attacks/round).Thanks a lot!
I was recently disabused of that notion, too. Up to 40d6! Whew!
EDIT: Wait, doesn't he only get one attack with the off hand? Must have improved 2 weapon fighting.
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I was recently disabused of that notion, too. Up to 40d6! Whew!
EDIT: Wait, doesn't he only get one attack with the off hand? Must have improved 2 weapon fighting.
Yes, he'd need the second feat version (if he's a rogue as is the case here).
40d6 is an average of 140, assuming you can bring it to bear. Chances of them all hitting even when you do get a full attack, though, are often pretty small.
Getting 10 d6 per sneak attack, though, doesn't come at +11/+6...
I was recently disabused of that notion, too. Up to 40d6! Whew!
EDIT: Wait, doesn't he only get one attack with the off hand? Must have improved 2 weapon fighting.
Yes, he'd need the second feat version (if he's a rogue as is the case here).
40d6 is an average of 140, assuming you can bring it to bear. Chances of them all hitting even when you do get a full attack, though, are often pretty small.
Getting 10 d6 per sneak attack, though, doesn't come at +11/+6...
WOW Iv been doing it wrong since i guess whenever it was still backstab!!!
Why are the chances of them hitting rare? You got him flanked, so hes not using dex bonus, youre by passing shield if any AND you have a flanking bonus to attack of (its used to be +4) +2 I think.
Why are the chances of them hitting rare? You got him flanked, so hes not using dex bonus, youre by passing shield if any AND you have a flanking bonus to attack of (its used to be +4) +2 I think.
two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, and weapon focus +1, Flanked is +2, say he has +5 daggers (sense we are counting him as 20th level) a 26 dex (20th level (+5 mods), point system 15 base, gloves +6) and weapon fenesse +12, and 20th level +15 for a attack ratio of +33/+28/+23 and +33/+28.
lets go 20th level fighter and say that he is not immune to sneak attacks, a easy feat at 20th level, has +5 full plate +17, dodge +2, Dex 20 (point system 14, +6 from gloves) +5, Natural armor amulet +5, and ring of protection +5 for an ac of 44this gives the rogue a rate of hitting to be 45%/20%/5%/45%/20%.
if we assume average damage on all
10d6=35
+5 daggers 1d4=7.5
14 str=2
total 44.5 dmg each hit.
over time this well turn into 56 dmg a turn. (45%+20%+5%+45%+20% of 44.5*5)
average fighter has 20d10 (10+5.5*19) 115 (round up) + Con 14 (point system 13 (+1 mod)) +2 per level 40 for a total of 155 hit points
a 20th level rogue vs 20 level fighter 3 rounds.
more goes into this, but that is some base numbers. there is a good chance that the fighter does more than stand there and take it. a good fighter should have more modifications to con, like a +6 mod from a belt, ect.
Why are the chances of them hitting rare? You got him flanked, so hes not using dex bonus, youre by passing shield if any AND you have a flanking bonus to attack of (its used to be +4) +2 I think.two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, and weapon focus +1, Flanked is +2, say he has +5 daggers (sense we are counting him as 20th level) a 26 dex (20th level (+5 mods), point system 15 base, gloves +6) and weapon fenesse +12, and 20th level +15 for a attack ratio of +33/+28/+23 and +33/+28.
lets go 20th level fighter and say that he is not immune to sneak attacks, a easy feat at 20th level, has +5 full plate +17, dodge +2, Dex 20 (point system 14, +6 from gloves) +5, Natural armor amulet +5, and ring of protection +5 for an ac of 44
this gives the rogue a rate of hitting to be 45%/20%/5%/45%/20%.
if we assume average damage on all
10d6=35
+5 daggers 1d4=7.5
14 str=2
total 44.5 dmg each hit.
over time this well turn into 56 dmg a turn. (45%+20%+5%+45%+20% of 44.5*5)
average fighter has 20d10 (10+5.5*19) 115 (round up) + Con 14 (point system 13 (+1 mod)) +2 per level 40 for a total of 155 hit points
a 20th level rogue vs 20 level fighter 3 rounds.more goes into this, but that is some base numbers. there is a good chance that the fighter does more than stand there and take it. a good fighter should have more modifications to con, like a +6 mod from a belt, ect.
if said fighter slips and falls prone he is majorly s*&%^ed, even a prayer effect tips the balance more scary is a surprise round followed by a full attack action. That fighter better run.
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if said fighter slips and falls prone he is majorly s*&%^ed, even a prayer effect tips the balance more scary is a surprise round followed by a full attack action. That fighter better run.
Although his flat-footed AC won't be far off his actual AC, at least. Also, a rogue making a full-round attack on the fighter is going to be the lucky winner of a full-round attack in return even if he did win initiative (likely).
if said fighter slips and falls prone he is majorly s*&%^ed, even a prayer effect tips the balance more scary is a surprise round followed by a full attack action. That fighter better run.
Lets take the same characters and reverse it.
fighter to hit - bab +20, Greater weapon focus +2, str 24 (15 point system, +3 mods, +6 belt) +12, 20th level fighter bonuses +4, +5 Greatsword +5 for a total of +43/+38/+33/+28
Rogue AC - Bracerers AC 8 +8, Dex 26 +12, Natural armor amulet +5, ring of protection +5 for a total of 40 giving the fighter a hit chance of 95%/95%/70%/45%
figure average damage again.
2d6 = 7
1.5 strength (welding it two handed) = 18
+5 weapon = 5
20th level fighter bonuses = 4
for a total of 34 each hit.
over time this well turn into 104 (round up) a round.
Rogue has 20d6 (6+3.5*19) 73 (round up) +0 (10 con) if the fighter gets one round of full attack on the rogue he goes down.
so no, the fighter should do his best to fight the rogue one on one. even flanked the fighter has a good chance.
if said fighter slips and falls prone he is majorly s*&%^ed, even a prayer effect tips the balance more scary is a surprise round followed by a full attack action. That fighter better run.Lets take the same characters and reverse it.
fighter to hit - bab +20, Greater weapon focus +2, str 24 (15 point system, +3 mods, +6 belt) +12, 20th level fighter bonuses +4, +5 Greatsword +5 for a total of +43/+38/+33/+28
Rogue AC - Bracerers AC 8 +8, Dex 26 +12, Natural armor amulet +5, ring of protection +5 for a total of 40 giving the fighter a hit chance of 95%/95%/70%/45%
figure average damage again.
2d6 = 7
1.5 strength (welding it two handed) = 18
+5 weapon = 5
20th level fighter bonuses = 4
for a total of 34 each hit.
over time this well turn into 104 (round up) a round.
Rogue has 20d6 (6+3.5*19) 73 (round up) +0 (10 con) if the fighter gets one round of full attack on the rogue he goes down.so no, the fighter should do his best to fight the rogue one on one. even flanked the fighter has a good chance.
str 24 isnt + 12 it is + 7, dex 26 is + 8 not + 12.
that aside the rogue is a halfling, getting better dex and ac and to hit bonus (+2), with the dodge feat (+2), and after a round of attacks with crippling strike his strength is lower. however my point was with a small bonus to hit the rogue would increase his/her damage output considerably, + 4 for a prone target might well mean he doesnt get up again.
why, if you spend the time to sneak up, stealth rolls are good person doesnt know you are there,would they get their dex bonus to your attack?
see I was running sneak attack like ye olde backstab of yore, where you had to go off slinking in the shadows and come up from behind to get it to work.
so lets assume you did do that, they would get dex if you totally get them by suprise? would they not be flat footed since they didnt know you were there or an attack was impending?
Improved feint only works for one attack, it could fail, and it takes a move action to do. I still like and use this myself and suggested it for my wife too, however there are limitations to it.
As a rogue I'd prob'ly go with the dazzling display - Stunning defense feats, likely boosted with skill focus (intimidate). You never need to get someone in that flanking position so you can go sneakety sneak attack all by yourself, for a little while at least... Throw in a healthy cha bonus and you are get to go... Yeah, I know... You waste a round intimidating, but you are almost guaranteed to succeed and the poor critters you are fighting are at -2 to hit.. Almost as good as a few spells I can think of...
I've been itching to try out this build. Mayby some day.... Ah well... ;-)
why, if you spend the time to sneak up, stealth rolls are good person doesnt know you are there,would they get their dex bonus to your attack?
see I was running sneak attack like ye olde backstab of yore, where you had to go off slinking in the shadows and come up from behind to get it to work.
so lets assume you did do that, they would get dex if you totally get them by suprise? would they not be flat footed since they didnt know you were there or an attack was impending?
no, they would lose their dex bonus and would be flatfooted, unless they had uncanny dodge, making them effectively immune to he 'backstab'
I am not sure I completely agree with this actually, I liked the 'knife in the back' sneak attack much better, but uncanny dodge giving virtual immunity to it.. any thoughts on this ?
improved uncanny dodge can overcome flanking, unless by a rogue 4 levels higher, but there is no such thing for the 'backstab'
Well only Barbarian and Rogue base classes get uncanny dodge, and Assassin and Shadowdancer are the only two core Prestige classes to give it. With the prestige classes unless you gained uncanny dodge before you got into the class only the prestige class counts towards keeping rogues away (so if a monk 5/shadowdancer 5 where flanked by a rogue of 9th level he could be sneak attacked as 9 is 4 levels higher than 5). I wouldn't get too worked up over it, as it isn't something that is seen alot. Now if everyone and their uncle had uncanny dodge then I might see more of an issue.
But Rogue is now D8, not D6. And there is no reason that a Rogue has to have a lack of a con bonus, especially if he's thinking about getting in a fight.
So it's 20D8 (8+ 4.5*19)94 +20 (assume a con bonus of only +2)= 114 HP.
VS the fighter at 20D10 (10+ 5.5*19)115 +20 (assume same con for fighter)= 135 HP.
Only a 21 point difference... not bad for fighting Rogues.
i used the point system to create the characters giving a stat read out of
fighter/roguestr 15/13
dex 13/15
con 14/10
int 10/14
wis 10/10
cha 10/10
and i put the 10 in the con, because i always put a good stat in int. for rogues, they are skill point creatures, int gives more skill points.
But Rogue is now D8, not D6. And there is no reason that a Rogue has to have a lack of a con bonus, especially if he's thinking about getting in a fight.
So it's 20D8 (8+ 4.5*19)94 +20 (assume a con bonus of only +2)= 114 HP.
VS the fighter at 20D10 (10+ 5.5*19)115 +20 (assume same con for fighter)= 135 HP.
Only a 21 point difference... not bad for fighting Rogues.i used the point system to create the characters giving a stat read out of
fighter/rogue
str 15/13
dex 13/15
con 14/10
int 10/14
wis 10/10
cha 10/10
and i put the 10 in the con, because i always put a good stat in int. for rogues, they are skill point creatures, int gives more skill points.
might be true, but for the sake of comparison it would have been fair to put the 14 in con, it is not like rogues get instant poor skills with lower int.
I think some things may have been overlooked...
Uncanny Dodge and even Imp UD does not stop a Sneak Attack,
they only reduce the chance of being hit by one.
They do not prevent becoming flat-footed, except from a Feint.
Having all sneak attacks during a suprise round makes sense to me.
It represents getting the jump on opponents, a rogue forte.
And a Feint to SA keeps them just as dangerous as they should be, no more.
Stunning Defense cannot be taken until 15th level due to BAB,
and only at the cost of Gtr 2-W fighting, further delaying 2-W Rend
If they focus on sniper, another rogue forte,
they can't get Pinpoint Targetting until 21st level due to BAB
Seems to be a lot of worry around the place,
about what a rogue can't actually do in combat until epic.
The class is still gimped, due to cries of false fears, in my opinion.
I think some things may have been overlooked...
Uncanny Dodge and even Imp UD does not stop a Sneak Attack,
they only reduce the chance of being hit by one.
They do not prevent becoming flat-footed, except from a Feint.Having all sneak attacks during a suprise round makes sense to me.
It represents getting the jump on opponents, a rogue forte.
And a Feint to SA keeps them just as dangerous as they should be, no more.Stunning Defense cannot be taken until 15th level due to BAB,
and only at the cost of Gtr 2-W fighting, further delaying 2-W RendIf they focus on sniper, another rogue forte,
they can't get Pinpoint Targetting until 21st level due to BABSeems to be a lot of worry around the place,
about what a rogue can't actually do in combat until epic.
The class is still gimped, due to cries of false fears, in my opinion.
actually uncanny dodge does prevent the rogue from losing her dex bonus when caught flat-footed, since sneak attack applies whenever a target would lose her dex bonus it seems she wont get sneak attacked.
improved uncanny dodge gives her protection from flanking from rogues up to 3 levels higher, pretty safe in most cases.
feint actually does not make a target flat-footed, but does make her lose her dex bonus so that actually would work to SA a rogue.
Well this is interesting - sometimes it pays to actually look stuff up. I thought you guys were mistaken, turns out we are all wrong.
Here's the quotes from the Beta:
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC, or when the rogue flanks her target.
Page 40
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.
Page 56
Feint: You can also use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be flat-footed against your next attack.
So, succinctly, Uncanny Dodge (and improved) prevents most sneak attacks.
Points:
A target must be flanked or denied dexterity.
Uncanny dodge keeps Dex when flat-footed or from invisible attack.
Feint does indeed case you to be flat-footed.
So basically Rogue vs. Rogue (or Barb) where one Rogue is not 4 levels higher, there will be no sneak attacking, unless you can stun the opponent, or otherwise deny them dexterity.
Note:This is a change from 3.5 where:
d20srd.org says:
Feinting in Combat
If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it.
However:
Stunning Defense cannot be taken until 15th level due to BAB, and only at the cost of Gtr 2-W fighting, further delaying 2-W Rend
Stunning Defense can be taken at 9th level rogue, or 8th level with the Combat Trick Rogue Talent.
whooops! full apologies for all that :(
and thank you all for taking the time to sort me out good and proper :)
I neglected benefits from uncanny dodge itself entirely
3 days without sleep didn't help lol
stunning defense I read the BAB for deadly stroke - duh
being currently half blind in one eye didn't help much either lol
*wonders how many other stupid posts I made that day*
recap from a different angle... UD + IUD =
immune to sneak attacks, unless flanked by a rogue 4 levels higher
can be flat-footed, andso denied AoO, but still retain Dex bonus to AC
flat-footed during suprise round and from a feint
pg 151 beta pdf
Feint
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill
check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent’s
base attack bonus + your opponent’s Wisdom modifier.
If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the
DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent’s Sense Motive
bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you
make against the target does not allow him to use his
Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made
on or before your next turn.
doesn't indicate flat-footed, but flat-footed causes loss of Dex bonus
We housed the sneak attack rule to one strike. You can make all of your attacks but only the first hit counts as a sneak attack and the defender is assumed to have adjusted to prevent further. This was just as much to protect the PCs as it was the monsters. A group of Rogues can take a party out with the quickness with a couple of good rolls.
I can't really say that it should be changed though. We'll likely keep playing that way regardless and anyone who plays with the normal sneak attack rule will likely do the same.
doesn't indicate flat-footed, but flat-footed causes loss of Dex bonus
That's so it a different state. If the target is flat-footed, that allows/means certain things that being Flanked or not being allowed DEX bonus don't. It's just simplification of terms so that it's clear what situation applied to the target.
Feint causes loss of DEX bonus application, but so does being Flanked, however, being FLanked also grants +2 bonus to attackers.
;-)
I only added that bit about feint to draw attention to a discrepancy ;)
Page 56
Feint: You can also use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be flat-footed against your next attack.
sorry for the double post - no edit option again
reason I pointed this out...
if Feint only causes loss of Dex bonus to AC, then U-Dodge makes one immune to Feint
if Feint causes Flat-Footed, then U-Dodge does not make one immune to Feint, which makes more sense
I'll try to point clearer just for you Cliff ;)
cannot sneak attack either way it's written
loss of Dexterity bonus to AC, is not the issue
all you did was rephrase what I said on that matter
Bluff states flat-footed. Feint does not.
flat-footed also means no attacks of opportunity.
that's an important difference. it's not the same thing.
Feint should clarify what Bluff states, not the other way around.
Why are the chances of them hitting rare? You got him flanked, so hes not using dex bonus, youre by passing shield if any AND you have a flanking bonus to attack of (its used to be +4) +2 I think.
Flanking does not deny Dex bonus, and there's nothing in the rules about bypassing shields. Flanking grants you a +2 to the attack, nothing more. Well, except that you may sneak him.
Thanks a lot! Because in my mind, it was like a smite, so only one smite even if it a full attack (with 4 attacks/round).
Thanks a lot!
There's a new version of smite we're supposed to try out which works all round (and later even several rounds) with one use.
I was recently disabused of that notion, too. Up to 40d6! Whew!
EDIT: Wait, doesn't he only get one attack with the off hand? Must have improved 2 weapon fighting.
Well dude,
it sounds good, but first of all: Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting is needed, and then try to hit 4 times in a row under conditions of "you are invisible, enemies are surprised, flatfooted, living creatures, and don't have armors with fortification, and don't have improved uncanny dodge and are 3 or 4 levels highter than your character".
undead, construct, oozes, plants. -> doesn't work. except for undead if you choose a special feat.
If your DM is very evil, you will get this fun once in a while ;)!
OLD back stab required to sneak and hide successfully and then you got a +4 to hit from behind.
Also got a +4 to hit if you were invisible.
So you cant get a +4 to hit from behind anymore?
And uncanny dodges purpose for existance is to retain the dexterity bonus while being flanked, so if you came up behind someone, one would think your dex bonus is gone.
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And uncanny dodges purpose for existance is to retain the dexterity bonus while being flanked, so if you came up behind someone, one would think your dex bonus is gone.
No, that's not right. Flanking doesn't cost you your Dex bonus. Uncanny Dodge means you don't lose your Dex bonus when flat-footed or when attacked by an invisible opponent; Improved Uncanny Dodge protects you from being flanked (which has two primary advantages: firstly, you don't suffer your opponents getting a +2 to hit and secondly you can't be sneak attacked other than by a rogue less than four levels higher).
No, that's not right. Flanking doesn't cost you your Dex bonus. Uncanny Dodge means you don't lose your Dex bonus when flat-footed or when attacked by an invisible opponent; Improved Uncanny Dodge protects you from being flanked (which has two primary advantages: firstly, you don't suffer your opponents getting a +2 to hit and secondly you can't be sneak attacked other than by a rogue less than four levels higher).
And uncanny dodges purpose for existance is to retain the dexterity bonus while being flanked, so if you came up behind someone, one would think your dex bonus is gone.
yea but what about someone coming up from behind? The idea from side flanking is that you can see them moving and know that they are there, so you're attention is drawn between toomany opponetns andgives the other guys some advantages.
But classic 1e backstab, with the proper stealth roll is technically "invisible" but doesnt uncanny dodge "negate" that suprise/invisible attack?
we have never used sneak attack as if it can be used in side flanking, we have always (even in 3e) made the rogue rolla stealth, sneak up from behind and sneak attack, just like old 1e backstab.
No, that's not right. Flanking doesn't cost you your Dex bonus. Uncanny Dodge means you don't lose your Dex bonus when flat-footed or when attacked by an invisible opponent; Improved Uncanny Dodge protects you from being flanked (which has two primary advantages: firstly, you don't suffer your opponents getting a +2 to hit and secondly you can't be sneak attacked other than by a rogue less than four levels higher).
And uncanny dodges purpose for existance is to retain the dexterity bonus while being flanked, so if you came up behind someone, one would think your dex bonus is gone.yea but what about someone coming up from behind? The idea from side flanking is that you can see them moving and know that they are there, so you're attention is drawn between toomany opponetns andgives the other guys some advantages.
It doesn't matter which way you attack from, (facing is gone too) if you have uncanny dodge you basically can't be suprised, and if you have improved uncanny dodge then you can't be flanked*.
(*except by someone with 4 or more rogue levels than you have class levels in classes that grant the uncanny dodge class features.)
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Also, as Abraham Spalding has said, there's no facing in 3.5 (although I think there's optional rules in UA, if I remember rightly). That sort of makes sense, though; a combat round is supposed to include back-and-forth, etc. Doesn't make much sense that you'd keep facing the same way for the whole time, particularly if you had opponents on either side of you. However (the flanking reasoning goes) you are distracted and (the sneak attack reasoning goes) more vulnerable as a result to precise strikes.
You can be surprised, you just don't lose your Dex bonus, surely? I mean, opponents still get a surprise round.
Regarding invisible attackers, they still get a bonus to hit you, you just don't lose your Dex bonus to AC (which is a bigger deal, obviously).
Yeah they still get the extra surprise round, the person with uncanny dodge has his dex bonus still. After improved uncanny dodge you basically have to get them helpless to sneak attack them.
Let's be clear though, this isn't a huge issue. There are only 2 base classes that get uncanny dodge, rogue and barbarian, and only 2 prestige classes that get it, assassin, and shadowdancer.
Since assassin requires an evil alignment it is generally limited to NPC's only (generally, I realise there are evil PC's, but they aren't the norm).
The only monsters with something like uncanny dodge are Oozes and Elementals, both of which can't be flanked.
yea i guess we were just using alot of old 1e ways to do things (backstab=sneak attack)
the rogue in our party basically IS invisible! she has 28 total to stealth before a roll (including magic items) and fst stealth as a rogue talent.
So theoretically couldnt someone like this run up behind an enemy (regaurdless of the back and forthing) and still effectively attack from behind, getting that " unseen bonus"
What if she was ambushing an came out from a hidden spot and there wasnt necessarily a combat going on "yet" wouldnt she then get the traditional backstab application and the enemy would have no dex bonus unless of course they had uncanny dodge?
man if you dont have to "sneak" to get your sneak attack, weve really been doing it all wrong (weve only been doing 3.5 since 2006) and so rogues really only have to just be flanking someone to get the sneak attack, AND they can use multiple attacks that round to apply sneak atack to to the same target??? (like TWF they could use both swords)
Im going to cry cheese on that one.
cry all you like but that's 3.x
Direct from the stealth description:
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception
check of anyone who might notice you. You can move up to
one-half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty.
When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than
your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s impossible to
use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging .
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but
typically sight), you can’t use Stealth. Against most creatures,
finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your
observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check),
you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their
attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can
get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however,
is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully used Stealth at least
10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack,
then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty
on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow
you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you
the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth
check while people are aware of you.
Old Back stab simply required you be behind the opponent:
Advanced D&D
"Back stabbing is the striking of a blow from behind, be it with club, dagger, or sword. The damage done per hit is twice normal for the weapon used per four exp levels of the thief...
...Note that striking by surpirse from behind also increases the hit probability by 20% (+4 on the thief's "to hit" die roll)."
but it was harder in 2nd ed.
2nd ed.
"When attacking someone by surprise and from behind...
... To use this ability, the thief must be behind his victim and the victim must be unawawre that the thief intends to attack him. If an enemy sees the thief, hears him, or is warned by another he is not caught unaware and the backstab is handled like a normal attack. Opponents in battle will often notice a thief trying to maneuver behind them."
Basically getting behind them was good enough in AD&D and in 2nd ed backstab was all but useless unless the rogue was on a solo mission sneaking around and could get behind his opponent without them noticing.
well the way we were using it, let's say the fighter is engaged with big nasty, they are full attacking back and forth, how can big nasty "notice" the rogue in combat, he's busy, so it wouldnt be hard for rogue to sneak up on him and sneak attack.
Like wise, someone spell casting or concetrating on a spell would be a good target for a sneak attack, that is if you could stealth around them.
If there is all sorts of combat and fireballs rolling around, then the rogue should be able to just slink off into the sidelines and manuver.
Once the rogue has shot off a sneak attack, how can she get another sneak attack when they just stabbed the enemy, the enemy is aware of them, they just got a twisted dagger in the ribs, so how is it a sneak 6 seconds later, or in the same round for that matter?
I could see jumping on the dragons back from a hding place and wailing away for a round (there by getting all your full attack as sneak attacks) but if you just shoved a dagger in my ribs and im not dead, you have my full attention now. So, how does an additional attack count as "sneak" and not normal.
What your saying by defination is that if Mr. Fighter is to the left of the target and Mr. Rogue is to the right, he can sneak attack all day long, because the taget is "flanked"?
well the stealth skill discription specifically states that melee attacks, running, and what not are impossible to do while using stealth...
other than that though I think it could be an interesting thing to see at higher levels and would be willing to look for a way to make it happen if I had a character that made it his shtick.
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Once the rogue has shot off a sneak attack, how can she get another sneak attack when they just stabbed the enemy, the enemy is aware of them, they just got a twisted dagger in the ribs, so how is it a sneak 6 seconds later, or in the same round for that matter?
'Sneak attack' really just means "exploit unawareness or distraction to launch precise blow". It's a somewhat misleading name, I might suggest, although actual sneaking would also fall under the description.
Nope those are covered in the Sleath skill discriptions (I posted it above in a spoiler). The best you can do in combat with the sleath skill (BTB) is sniping which gives one ranged attack at an opponent more than 10 ft away from you, and takes a - 20 on your sleath check to remain hidden.
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well the stealth skill discription specifically states that melee attacks, running, and what not are impossible to do while using stealth...
other than that though I think it could be an interesting thing to see at higher levels and would be willing to look for a way to make it happen if I had a character that made it his shtick.
In other words, stealth ends once you make an attack. You can move your normal move action, with fast sneak, and make an attack from stealth, thus resulting in a sneak attack and the end of stealth.