[BARD] bardic colleges

[Laurefindel]

Bardic colleges

Here’s the idea in a nutshell; I will try to elaborate further in the next couple days. Any input is welcome:

The Bard is a versatile class, in the sense that it can fit to many roles and character concepts; all you need to do is “bend” the fluff around the bardic music mechanics and voilà!, you have a aristocratic noble, a witty duelist à la Cyrano de Bergerac, a warrior-poet or a viking-inspired scald. But if we could get the concept a notch further, we could have Bardic Colleges.

Bardic Colleges would be similar to Wizard’s Schools or Cleric Domains, except that they would affect the bard’s bardic music abilities. If every bard should be a performer of some sort, they should not all have to be wandering minstrels...

So lets strip the bard of its bardic music abilities, with the exception of Inspire Courage/Competence/Greatness/Heroics. Lets have all the other abilities depend on the selected College. Just for fluff, lets assume that the bard can use all Inspire Courage/Competence/Greatness/Heroicswithout any “musical component”, although they STILL require daily uses of the bardic music to be triggered.

It has been a concern that bardic music abilities are only poor copies of the bard’s spells. Well, let them BE spells, or more precisely, spell-like abilities usable with daily uses of bardic music. Let the bard acquire those every time he gets a new spell level, or maybe adopt the same “template” as the bloodline/domains/schools (TBA). Essentially, let them be extra known spells with a small twist. While we’re at it, we could include the bards Perform skill ranks in the equation (TBA).

Then, let the Bardic Colleges orient the character in its role and concept. The typical bard could have Songs of Power akin to the Soothing Music and Deadly Performance, but other colleges could give something more warrior-y, or thief-y, or batman-y... (TBA). What about fortune-telling gypsy-bards, or blade spinning duelist-bards, or rage-inspiring singing-scalds?

“But wait a minute, bardic college says you? That rings a bell...”

Of course it does, those were the colleges that the bard had to attend back in 1st edition. They were only fluff an nothing is known about them except by name. But hey, there’s something to work on. Lets include those in core, and get more race-specific or campaign-specific in supplements. Like the Cleric Domains, this is an opened door for imaginative minds...

According to the 1st edition bards, bardic colleges were run by the druids and bard spells were taken from the druid spell-list. While this may not be the case anymore, the names of those colleges may have stuck to common practices among bards. To keep the legacy of the bard throughout all D&D editions, there could be a college where bards take their spells from the druid spell list (like the 1ed bards), and one where bards are wizard-dabblers scoundrels (like the 2ed bards)

A litle example...

OLAMH COLLEGE
“recently reopened as New Ollam, this college is no longer run by the druid masters of old, but by a covenant of like-minded music teachers and master-bards. Teaching the influence of music on the mortal’s mind, Olamh music was one of the most wide-spread practice in the time of the druids-run colleges. It is thus not surprising that the ways of Olamh music have survived almost intact and spread throughout the vast world.

Olamh College Songs of Power

6th Soothing Music (Sp): Create an effect equivalent to the calm emotion spell. In addition, this music removes the confused, fatigued, sickened, and shaken condition from all those affected, and restores the exhausted and panicked conditions to fatigued and shaken respectively. This ability functions on all targets within 30 feet.

12th Song of Freedom (Sp): Create an effect equivalent to the break enchantment spell. This ability functions on a single target within 30 feet. Instead, a bard may use song of freedom to create an effect equivalent to a dispel magic spell against a single movement impeding magical effect (such as an entangle spell, but not natural overgrowth).

18th Requiem (Sp): Create an effect equivalent to the gentle repose spell. In addition, the recipient of the requiem is freed of any curse, disease and poison and cannot be turned into an undead creature nor can it returns has a ghost. This ability functions on all targets within 30 feet.

A bard may also use requiem to attempt to free the soul of a ghost (effectively destroying the undead) whom origins and circumstances of death are known. The ghost is allowed a Will saving throw (DC equal to the bard’s Perform check) to avoid the effect. A ghost that succeeds its saving throw cannot be affected by requiem until the bard gains a new level.

Olamh College Spell-like Abilities

2nd Enthrall: As the spell, except duration has a maximum of 1 round per bard level.

5th Suggestion: As the spell, except the target creature must first be enthralled.

8th Deep Slumber: As the spell, except the targets must first be enthralled.

11th Modify Memory: As the spell, except the target must first be enthralled.

14th Mass Suggestion: As the Suggestion ability, except the bard can target 1 creature per level simultaneously.

17th Mass Charm Monster: As the spell, must first be enthralled.

[Laurefindel]

Here are the colleges and some suggestion for each:

Anstruth: A menacing bard, inspiring fear in its enemies and courage in its allies

Canaith: A gypsy bard, specializing in curses and fortune telling

Cli: A scoundrel bard, casting wizard spells that he picks along his adventures.

Doss: A gallant, knightly or duelist bard. His abilities consist mainly of self enhancements.

Fochlucan: A druid-taught bard, using animals and terrain to overcome its enemies.

Mac Fuirmidh: A scald or savage warrior-bard. Its abilities target his allies to give them combat enhancements.

Olamh: the "typical" bard specializing in the entrancement of its audience.

[Pendagast]

more interested in the Scald college, and what we can do with the dark bard /intimidating suggestion type information peddler/gatherer.

any idea for those colleges?

[Pendagast]

Laurefindel wrote:

Here are the colleges and some suggestion for each:

Anstruth: A menacing bard, inspiring fear in its enemies and courage in its allies

Canaith: A gypsy bard, specializing in curses and fortune telling

Cli: A scoundrel bard, casting wizard spells that he picks along his adventures.

Doss: A gallant, knightly or duelist bard. His abilities consist mainly of self enhancements.

Fochlucan: A druid-taught bard, using animals and terrain to overcome its enemies.

Mac Fuirmidh: A scald or savage warrior-bard. Its abilities target his allies to give them combat enhancements.

Olamh: the "typical" bard specializing in the entrancement of its audience.

need a juggling/kinfe throwing college too. (kinda like the blade from 2e complete bard) and maybe a sword performing bard...maybe these could be the same college, juggling, sword tricks, throwing knives at a lady on a round board cutting apples in half while blind folded?

What do we call that college? Suma-cum-cutlery?

[Laurefindel]

Pendagast wrote:

more interested in the Scald college, and what we can do with the dark bard /intimidating suggestion type information peddler/gatherer.

any idea for those colleges?

I have developed them all, but they're rather Forgotten Realms oriented and heavily dependent on our house rules. What I posted above is actually an early draft, as I don't have my most recent files here with me. At any case, I'd have to Paizo-them-up, which I'm not sure if I will be able to find the time to do... The more I think about it, the more I'd use the uniform pattern that is used for the schools and domains and built around that.

At least you get the idea.

'findel

[Pendagast]

weapon choices/armor should vary according to college as well.

scalds would have shields, spears, axes and swords.

maybe gypsies could be that juggling knife throwing college?

anyhoo you get the point, each would have its own flair and its own set of weapon and armor restictions.

[Abraham spalding]

I would say base them off of the different performance skills first.

After all what would a bard study in a college? Performance!

Dancing could give movement based abilities.

Singing could be like above

Acting could give stealth and mimicking powers.

Oratory could give even better morale bonuses than regular inspiration does

I did more along these ideas in another thread. I'll hunt them down later.

[Pendagast]

Abraham spalding wrote:

I would say base them off of the different performance skills first.

After all what would a bard study in a college? Performance!

Dancing could give movement based abilities.

Singing could be like above

Acting could give stealth and mimicking powers.

Oratory could give even better morale bonuses than regular inspiration does

I did more along these ideas in another thread. I'll hunt them down later.

does anyone else remember the bard in the dark sun rule set? I cant even remeber if he did perform?

in 2e the complete bard did something like this where all had a perform style, the skald was telling tales of war and battle orders, the blade was something similar to the dazzling display feat, i dont remember all of them but there was abook load of them.

[spalding]

Me Me I do! I have a deep love of the Dark Sun!

Bards in dark sun got poison use, better skill use, and some social abilities. They didn't have any magic, and they were "entertainer/assassin/spy" people (a cliche that's gotten rather old in RPGs, I'm about to the point where I go, "Entertainer eh? String him up and beat him until he admits the truth!").

[cliff]

Just for grins, here's where I left off in my own re-writing of Bardic Performance based on my idea of eliminating Performance as a skill, co-opting is as an exclusive Class Ability for Bards, and having the Bardic Performance Powers utilized by the Bard player making skill checks (each power would be assigned to a different skill upon selecting it at the appropriate exp lvl).

Keep in mind that the intent was to think big and then trim things back, so some powers are pretty outrageous (Greentongue) but some seem so cool and perfect for the Bard (Deathwrapt, Unlock, Beat of the Forge). I also wanted to add Bardic Performances that increased base speed, instilled Rage-like effects, etc. But it hasn't been met with much positive response so I haven't been as motivated to flesh things out recently.

Also, I was still in the midst of figuring out exactly what level things should occur at. All of the Inspire types were meant to stack, stemming from the same activator skill, so an ultimate +8 I think could be achieved.

Anyway, read if you like. Maybe some of it could apply to this Colleges idea. I put it in a Spoiler Tag to keep things short and sweet.

Spoiler:

LVL1: Performance 1:
Countersong, Reassurance, Fascinate, Sicken, Inspire Courage
LVL3: Performance 2:
Performance 2: Inspire Competence, Inspire Courage, Dramatic Flourish, Unlock, Stagehand
LVL5: Performance 3:
Suggestion, Inspire Courage, Delight & Despair, Draw the Curtain, Greentongue
LVL8: Performance 4:
Inspire Greatness, Inspire Courage, Dirge of Doom, Discordant Performance, Beat of the Forge, Deathwrapt, Burning Melody*
LVL11: Performance 5:
Song of Freedom, Soothing Performance, Inspire Courage, Cacophony of Pests, Song of the Wood
LVL14: Performance 6:
Frightening Tune, Paralyzing Show, Inspire Heroics, Inspire Courage, Anathema of Allure
LVL 17: Performance 7:
Mass Suggestion, Inspire Courage
LVL 20: Performance 8:
Deadly Performance, Inspire Courage

Fascinate: As in the book.
Inspire Courage: As in the book, except it is +1 when taken for the first time, and +1 cumulatively each consecutive time it is chosen. May not be assigned to a different Skill each time.
Sicken: Cause all enemies within 30’ to make a FORT save or be Nauseated.
Inspire Competence: As in the book. Counts as a Swift Action
Delight & Despair: Creates a a pleasant state in all allies within 30’that can see and hear the Bard and whom the Bard himself can see, having the same effects as a Bless spell, and generates a feeling of growing dread in enemies within 30’who can both see and hear the Bard and whom the Bard can see himself, having the same effects as a Bane Spell.
Dramatic Flourish: May use their performance skills to distract and momentarily confuse their enemies. A bard may choose to either Feint in combat against one opponent, or create a distraction to gain 20% concealment as a move action, using a Perform check in place of a Bluff check. Increases in effect each time Performance Level increases, adding one additional foe who can be Feinted against, or increasing the amount of concealment by 5% cumulatively.
Unlock: Takes (DC of lock / Bard lvl) number of rounds (round up) to have same effect as Knock spell. Move Action.
Draw the Curtain: Has exactly the same effects as an Obscuring Mist spell.
Greentongue: Creates either the effects of the Entangle spell, or conveys the effects Pass Without Trace spell on all allies within 10’ each lasting for as long as the Bard performs, whether affected individuals stay in range or not.
Stagehand: Has exactly the same effects as Floating Disk for a number of hours per Bard level, except that objects can be “grabbed” and manipulated as the Mage Hand spell also as long as they are brought to and remain on the Floating Disk.
Beat of the Forge: Has same effects as a Heat Metal spell, but also causes any targeted forged item with magical properties to throw off harmless blue sparks and maintain a blue aura about it.
Song of the Wood: Grants the effect of either Bear’s Endurance, Bull’s Strength, Fox’s Cunning, or Owl’s Wisdom to one ally target as a full round action. The ally retains the bonus a number of rounds equal to the Bard’s level, and each round the Bard may choose another target ally and another quality to impart, although no one ally can have more than one quality bestowed on him at the same time.
Cacophony of Pests: Has same effects as Insect Plague.
Deathwrapt: Has same effects as Speak with Dead, except that the dead will communicate with the Bard in the manner of the performance. If the Bard sings, the dead sing their response. If the Bard acts his query (drawing on his vast knowledge of the works of various playwrights) then the dead respond in character. This can often be confusing and open to interpretation, but fortunately Bards often have vast amounts of obscure knowledge to decipher such cryptic responses. The dead will also remain focused on the Bard and answer any questions posed to them for as long as the Bard performs, plus 1 round per 4 levels after the performance ceases.
Frightening Tune: As in book.
Paralyzing Show: As in book.
Inspire Heroics: As in Book.
Anathema of Allure: As the spell Feeblemind, but the Bard may target one creature per his own Charisma Bonus, and only one target in each consecutive round.

[Tom Cattery]

I like your thoughts so far. I'd like to throw in my two cents.

Quote:

Anstruth: A menacing bard, inspiring fear in its enemies and courage in its allies.

This speaks a lot of the intimidating dark hero. While I don't see a lot of changes needed, they probably would have only the most basic of morale-boosting abilities, preferring instead to demoralize their enemies. "Performance" of choice would probably be of an acting variety.

Quote:

Canaith: A gypsy bard, specializing in curses and fortune telling.

I would say curses and charms are most important here since those who are truly gifted with visions of the future often seem to lack the light-heartedness of many of their fellows. Acting, dancing and music would typify the gypsy bard. They would definately have a variety of mind-affecting abilities, but lack the range of knowledge of typical bards.

Quote:

Cli: A scoundrel bard, casting wizard spells that he picks along his adventures.

I would almost say the wizard spell-casting bard would be more of a scholar than a scoundrel. They would excel at lore and knowledge, probably engaging in storytelling to inspire comrades, but lack much of the basic mind-affecting abilities of typical bards.

Quote:

Doss: A gallant, knightly or duelist bard. His abilities consist mainly of self enhancements.

I assume that the main focus of this type of bard is personal martial prowess? The Doss would probably have an expanded range of weapons and possibly armor. They might even lack the magic abilities that many bards possess.

Quote:

Fochlucan: A druid-taught bard, using animals and terrain to overcome its enemies.

Obviously, this type of bard would have fewer effects that would assist human allies, preferring animals instead, and would probably lack the scholarly range of more urban bards. Their spell selection would take on a more nature-oriented focus and they would probably gain an animal companion at some point as a druid or ranger would.

Quote:

Mac Fuirmidh: A scald or savage warrior-bard. Its abilities target his allies to give them combat enhancements.

Like the Doss, this bard would have an expanded array of weapons and armor. However, they would probably have very little knowledge outside the arts of war and their spells and abilities would be focussed on affecting as many as possible at once.

[Pendagast]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Me Me I do! I have a deep love of the Dark Sun!

Bards in dark sun got poison use, better skill use, and some social abilities. They didn't have any magic, and they were "entertainer/assassin/spy" people (a cliche that's gotten rather old in RPGs, I'm about to the point where I go, "Entertainer eh? String him up and beat him until he admits the truth!").

haahahah! that is so dang funny! Im the same way!

I always liked the dark sun bard, I'm one of the only people left I know, that remembers what a "Bard's Friend" is.

[cliff]

It just occured to me that one thing I've always disliked is, if choosing a Bard, I MUST have arcane spell casting and can't just develop my performances, or other aspects of the class, seperately.

That should be a factor in designing this. Let spellcasting be a "path" or at least an option, rather than a class mandate.

Also, remember that we have to stick to keeping this as compatible as possible with existing 3.5 material. Making the method for performance too divergent from existing stuff will not be acceptible to the PF folks.

My idea was complex, but it didn't alter the skill tree or remove the existing Bard performances from 3.5 or PF versions of the class. I think this path thing is strying a bit ....erm...off the path? (lol)

[cliff]

Laurefindel wrote:

Here are the colleges and some suggestion for each:

Anstruth: A menacing bard, inspiring fear in its enemies and courage in its allies

Canaith: A gypsy bard, specializing in curses and fortune telling

Cli: A scoundrel bard, casting wizard spells that he picks along his adventures.

Doss: A gallant, knightly or duelist bard. His abilities consist mainly of self enhancements.

Fochlucan: A druid-taught bard, using animals and terrain to overcome its enemies.

Mac Fuirmidh: A scald or savage warrior-bard. Its abilities target his allies to give them combat enhancements.

Olamh: the "typical" bard specializing in the entrancement of its audience.

Here's how I think it'd pan out with powers, based on the following definition of the word "college": ...an organized group of professional people, with particular aims, duties, and privileges. (eg. the electoral college, the Bardic College)

0) Colleges aren't tight or exclusive, instead being a single guild of loose groups (the Bardic College) in almost every city and village where Bards learn the general talents of Bards world wide. The learn to be captivating performers, but they also learn the arts of deception and allure. To these ends, Bards are taught that acquiring vast amounts of facts, stories and a wide variety of skills directly aid in Bard talents.
1) Bards automatically get Bardic Knowledge as it is ubiquitous to all colleges.
2) Bard player selects a College Aspect and records a rank of 1 for that college.College ranks are for book keeping as explained in step (3).
3) At 1st level and every 4th level thereafter (4, 8, 12, 16, 20) he he gains a new Performance ability from that Aspect. There are six (6) Bardic Performances for each Aspect and each may only be chosen once. Inspiration Bonuses do not stack with one another, but they do stack with other bonuses which effect morale.
4) ...OR may choose to switch Aspects. Switching Aspects merely focuses on a new list of Bardic Performances and has no penalty other than to delay progress in the starting Aspect. The Bard becomes rank 1 in the new Aspect and progresses in that Aspect at the same rate, but will have multiple Aspects at different ranks. A Bard may use as many Aspects as he wishes, but obviously such a Bard will be less powerful than one who concentrates all his efforts in a single Aspect.

EXAMPLE:
Anstruth: A menacing bard, inspiring fear in its enemies and courage in its allies:
1: Shout of Hesitancy - Select a target enemy and make a Bluff check + your Aspect rank to set the DC as a Swift Action. That enemy fails a WILL save is startled by the Bard's performance and must Refocus and be assigned a new initiative count.
2: Shocking Dance – make an Athletics check + your Aspect Rank as a Standard Action to set the DC. Targets within 5’ who fail a WILL save are Shaken. Can be maintained in subsequent rounds as a Standard Action each time at the same DC without needing to re-roll the skill check.
3: etc….

Basically, that's the way I see it. The names and powers would have to include all the current Bardic Performances, and obviously I just pulled Shout of Hesitancy and Shocking dance out of the clear blue sky, but you get the idea. DCs are all derived from a skill check, which is going along with the concept of removing Performance as a skill, but it could also just use Perform skill + ranks from Bluff + Aspect rank, although that could get really high. I don't know...I just thought of the mechanic, so I'd have to test it more, but I think it's sound.

The only way to gain true spell casting would be to choose the Aspect of Cil or Fochlucan, gaining access to Sorcerer/Wizard or Druid lists respectively, with a caster level equal to the Aspect Rank. That may be too slow.

Thoughts?

[Laurefindel]

cliff wrote:

Also, remember that we have to stick to keeping this as compatible as possible with existing 3.5 material. Making the method for performance too divergent from existing stuff will not be acceptible to the PF folks.

I'm the first to admit that this is pulled from a game that is HEAVILY house-ruled. Taken as-is, the Bardic Colleges idea has a long way to go to get Pathfinder-ified, but if it gives insights to somebody, then great!

... and yes, backwards compatibility is an issue. While I'd love to see it being built on the same model of a domain or arcane school, there may be a way to built it on the present progression of class features so that a bard that selects the "standard" college (or whatever name it bears) remains identical to the 3.5 bard.

However, It is my opinion that the 3.5 bard needs more revamping than this, and needs to be rebuilt from scratch.

As far as the Colleges as institution goes, I think it should remain more fluff than an actual, physical building with teachers and stuff. They could have existed long ago, and their names just stuck to particular practices. It would be too bad to say "sorry, I can't allow you the Cli college. See, you're a dwarf and although you concept fits, they don't like dwarves in this area and they wouldn't enroll you..."

Basically, they should be like monk monastery: Part of the world and its flavour, but relatively inconsequential on the game mechanics.

'findel

[Laurefindel]

cliff wrote:

0) Colleges aren't tight or exclusive, instead being a single guild of loose groups (the Bardic College) in almost every city and village where Bards learn the general talents of Bards world wide. The learn to be captivating performers, but they also learn the arts of deception and allure. To these ends, Bards are taught that acquiring vast amounts of facts, stories and a wide variety of skills directly aid in Bard talents.

... exactly what I meant to say...

[cliff]

Laurefindel wrote:

... exactly what I meant to say...

I know! (lol)

It's that "from designer to writer" type of thing. (hehe)

I almost thought of it as a wry in-joke, too. A "college" normally being a place of esteemed learning, you know. But Bards call wandering around, meeting other Bards and learning random stuff and performance based abilities their "college".

How do you feel about the loose system I proposed?

[Saurstalk]

When I saw this, the first thought I had was "Pathfinder!"

Next Bard I intend to create will be part of the Pathfinder guild. He's not going to be a musician, but rather a storyteller and historian. I thought I'd go against the grain and have him focus on archery, too.

In this respect, I'd suggest that Schools be more versatile, perhaps allowing traits unique to them, as opposed to different schools of powers. (Besides, this will probably be easier for Paizo to tackle this late in the game.) The focus of each school should be on a manner of perform, a bonus on some unique Knowledge or Craft skill, and even DC bonus to specific spells, and a fighting style.

[Pendagast]

Saurstalk wrote:

When I saw this, the first thought I had was "Pathfinder!"

Next Bard I intend to create will be part of the Pathfinder guild. He's not going to be a musician, but rather a storyteller and historian. I thought I'd go against the grain and have him focus on archery, too.

sounds like a pathfinder chronicler

[Saurstalk]

Pendagast wrote:

Saurstalk wrote:

When I saw this, the first thought I had was "Pathfinder!"

Next Bard I intend to create will be part of the Pathfinder guild. He's not going to be a musician, but rather a storyteller and historian. I thought I'd go against the grain and have him focus on archery, too.

sounds like a pathfinder chronicler

Yep.

[cliff]

In the campaign guide for PF, the Bard excels at a particular mode of Performance. I think its infinitely better to be non-specific about performance types/modes (eg. singing, oratory, acting, etc.) and just lump it all together. The guys can PERFORM, period. They do it all. However, in the PF campaign, and under the mechanic I propose above, Bards could easily just get an additional +1 to the Aspect the choose at first level, but they also can't change as they level up.

[Tom Cattery]

Saurstalk wrote:

Next Bard I intend to create will be part of the Pathfinder guild. He's not going to be a musician, but rather a storyteller and historian. I thought I'd go against the grain and have him focus on archery, too.

This is my issue with bards in general right now. You have to go against the grain to really make them interresting since the mechanics don't do the best job to support it.

My last bard was a spy for The Mother Church (different setting). His performance of choice was acting and he used a lot of his magic and skills for infiltration. In combat, he primarily worked with healing and buffing magics that he could use on himself (and others if absolutely necessary) and waded into melee with a heavy mace and the heaviest armor that spellcasting would allow.

I'm really interrested in adapting a college system, maybe an open one, that can allow for a variety of jobs, but do it easier than the current bard system.

[Laurefindel]

cliff wrote:

How do you feel about the loose system I proposed?

I'd have to give it a close look, but I wasn't too sure of what you call an "aspect"

cliff wrote:

DCs are all derived from a skill check, which is going along with the concept of removing Performance as a skill, but it could also just use Perform skill + ranks from Bluff + Aspect rank, although that could get really high.

That would be insanely high. There are convincing arguments that even a Perform Check result is too high, and too swingy. But the numbers of ranks should have an impact somehow. I think that 10 + ranks + Cha bonus (and + Aspect?) is already a notably high DC, without being over the top.

'findel

[Laurefindel]

Saurstalk wrote:

When I saw this, the first thought I had was "Pathfinder!"

Next Bard I intend to create will be part of the Pathfinder guild. He's not going to be a musician, but rather a storyteller and historian. I thought I'd go against the grain and have him focus on archery, too.

In this respect, I'd suggest that Schools be more versatile, perhaps allowing traits unique to them, as opposed to different schools of powers. (Besides, this will probably be easier for Paizo to tackle this late in the game.) The focus of each school should be on a manner of perform, a bonus on some unique Knowledge or Craft skill, and even DC bonus to specific spells, and a fighting style.

The goal of Bardic Colleges should definitively be to give the bard versatility in giving them unique options. I think they should rely on Fluff first and then built crunch material around it, but that must be the AD&D 2ed DM in me that is sending subliminal messages. I admit that the historian/riddlemaster is not been represented in my example above. Then again, these are only suggestions...

Part of my original concept designs was selecting what should be available as part of the bard base class and what constitute prestige class material. I always been a big fan of the 2ed riddlemaster from the complete bard's handbook, and originally planed to make a prestige class out of it (Same for the blade). However, there are no "scholar" approach to the bard class in the Colleges that I developed, and I think you are right in saying that there is a missing avenue here.

'findel

[cliff]

Laurefindel wrote:

cliff wrote:

How do you feel about the loose system I proposed?

I'd have to give it a close look, but I wasn't too sure of what you call an "aspect"

cliff wrote:

DCs are all derived from a skill check, which is going along with the concept of removing Performance as a skill, but it could also just use Perform skill + ranks from Bluff + Aspect rank, although that could get really high.

That would be insanely high. There are convincing arguments that even a Perform Check result is too high, and too swingy. But the numbers of ranks should have an impact somehow. I think that 10 + ranks + Cha bonus (and + Aspect?) is already a notably high DC, without being over the top.

'findel

"Aspect" was in reference to the "Aspect of the College", ie. the old college names. "Aspect" is just the first label that popped into my head - it could be anything. I just didn't want to use the words School, Talent, Path, etc. Some word that evoked the sub-divisions within the Bardic College was what I was going for.

As far as the skill check idea, here's how I see it working if there's no Perform skill:

((Skill called for) + (d20 roll) + (Aspect Rank))

It won't be that high, as I see things, because Max Ranks caps at character level in the PF rules. So, a 5th level Bard could only have 5 max ranks in a skill, +3 for class skill bonus, +5 CHA = 12 in that first variable. Add to that an average of 10.5 for the die roll and an Aspect Rank of +2 for 5th lvl, and an average of DC 22.5 is generated. Wizard spell DCs for 5th level are 10+3+6=19 for a third level spell being cast, so the Bard DC seems high, but these aren't spells we're talking about and the Bard will only have six Bardic Performance powers ultimately, whereas Wizards will have dozens of spells. I'm not sure I mind it being high if it's very limited. maximum roll, that same Bard DC becomes DC24, but the powers are also dependent on the character having ranks in that particular skill.

Now, if it remains Perform skill, it's still limited in the same way. No character can have more skill ranks than he has character level. Bonus from CHA is factored into many of the skills that will be involved, and Aspect rank, the way I've got it spaced out, doesn't impact things much, but it benefits someone sticking with the same Aspect. (+1 cumulative at 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, & 20 = max +6).

I'm of the mind that a swingy power that controls enemy's minds, but that works more often than it fails, is pretty cool. Getting rid of Perform as a skill helps, because then other skills become the operatives/triggers. The Bards are still considered to be "performing" but it introduces a randomized change of effect for bigger gain than spells.

Also, note that I'm suggesting Bards acting as spell casters at a level equal to their Aspect rank, so max lvl 6. I wouldn't change the spells per day and levels available, so it's like they know a tone of stuff that they can't use well.

...man....I gotta get a book in front of me though...I'm going exclusively from memory and this great idea may just be dashed on the rocks once I actually look at a table or something...lol

[cliff]

Bumping. Any more thoughts?

[Pauel]

cliff wrote:

Bumping. Any more thoughts?

These are some really great ideas.

As the class in PF is currently written they seemed to concentrate on LORE primarily in the update. They did a good job on that. Now they need to concentrate and put more effort into the music and performance.

The colleges could even be divided up into specialty tracks.

Battle bard - gets combat feats like the fighter but not nearly as many at the cost of songs not being as good.

Normal bard - Bardic Songs galore! This track your songs are better.

Caster bard - Concentrate on Wizard Spells. in exchange for bardic songs not being as strong.

Healing Bard - Concentrate on cleric spells. In exchange for bardic songs not being as strong.

Obviously this is just a quick brain storm idea, I believe we have to keep the lore and casting of spells in the mix just for compatibilities sake, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to pick a specialization track.

Every other class has some form of customization or specialization outside of the feats they chose. Rangers get ranged or TWF, Barbarians can pick rage powers, etc etc. Why should the bard be so bland in comparison?