[Combat Maneuvers] Proof of Concept aka Saving the Fighter Class


Combat


COMBAT MANEUVERS
Proof of Concept aka Saving the Fighter Class

Introduction

My stern belief is that Pathfinder Fighters are inferior to 3.5 Fighters with regard to scalability. In other words, high level Fighters under Pathfinder system are worse off than their 3.5 versions. According to Crusader of Logic problems occur beyond 5th level, while in my campaign this issue began to trouble my players around 8th or 9th.

Stating all the reasons for this claim is beyond the scope of this article, however for those who want to know here are a few tips:
1. Read the posts in Classes: Barbarian, Fighter, and Ranger.
2. 3.5 staple Fighter feats were nerfed: Power Attack, Improved Trip, Combat Expertise.
3. It is possible to construct much stronger melee characters without relying on Fighter class, for example, using Pathfinder BETA Prestige classes:
Fighter 4, Sorcerer 2, Dragon Disciple 4, Eldritch Knight 10
- you lose 2 BAB, 2 Fighter feats
- you gain 14 spellcasting levels
4. At the moment this article is written, Pathfinder BETA feats improve Fighter ability to deal Critical damage, however criticals do not apply to numerous important opponent types (as opposed to, say, Pathfinder BETA Sneak Attack damage).
5. Pathfinder BETA Combat Maneuvers are significantly weaker than 3.5 counterparts (smaller chance to succeed, smaller chance to hinder opponent activities).

Additionally, Fighters are still limited to 2 skill points per level and they still lack ability to deal with impossible challenges. Also, Fighters are still ridicoulsly easily eliminated from melee combat. Three simple examples of issues with persisting in this approach:
1. All brilliant strategists of military forces of our history would have to multiclass into Rogues.
2. Pinned Spellcaster uses Dimension Door. Pinned Rogue uses Escape Artist. Pinned Druid uses Wild Shape. Pinned Fighter keeps losing one Combat Mamneuver check after another since his chance to succeed at CM is so low.

Having said this, I have decided to create a proof of concept for allowing Fighters to shine using Combat Maneuvers. Caveat: this is just a proof of concept, i.e. it is a proof that this is still possible to save Fighters from being reduced to dumb damage dealers, but the mechanics proposed below are not complete or playtested.

Combat Maneuvers, Mission Goals

Current Maneuvers fare pretty well in most playtests, however they are notorious for low effectiveness. Also, especially at higher levels, DC to succeed is so high have you cannot really hope to win (Storm Giant, CMB +30 at CR 13 vs Fighter 13, CMB +19, Tripping Giant: DC 45 [15 base DC], Escaping Giant's Grapple: DC 55 [15 base DC, +5 circumstance for winning grapple check]). Moreover, damage dealing is often preferred since it is viewed as more dependable way of disposing of opponents.

So, to make use of Combat Maneuver to be a viable combat option, the following changes should be made:
- reasonable success chance against same CR monsters for ALL (including Clerics, non-Wildshaped Druids, Rogues)
- significant success chance against same CR monsters for CM Specialist (Fighters, Monks)

To be more precise, we must detail elements further (forgive me certain assumptions as to statistics - D20 system is anything but linear and uniform):

1. Expected range of CMBs for PCs to face is as follows (all of these share two common traits - their BAB is that of a fighter, their abilities are diverse enough not to make them specialized in CMB value [as opposed to Elder Earth Elemental, CR11, CMB 31], 2 of them can use Improved Grab):

- CR 9 - Bone Devil (Osyluth) - Large Outsider, BAB 10, Str 21
CMB 16, CMB Defensive DC 31, CMB Grapple Defensive 36

- CR 11 - Barbed Devil (Hamatula) - Medium Outsider, BAB 12, Str 23
CMB 18, CMB Defensive DC 33, CMB Grapple Defensive 38

- CR 16 - Horned Devil (Cornugon) - Large Outsider, BAB 15, Str 31
CMB 26, CMB Defensive DC 41, CMB Grapple Defensive 46

2. Expected range of CMBs for PC Cleric, Medium, Str 18 (i.e. PC of average melee competence, no special buffs or items factored in):

- Level 9 - CMB 10
- Level 11 - CMB 12
- Level 16 - CMB 16
- Level 20 - CMB 19

3. Expected range of CMBs for PC Fighter, Medium, Str 22 (i.e. PC of high melee competence, no special buffs or items factored in):

- Level 9 - CMB 15
- Level 11 - CMB 17
- Level 16 - CMB 23 (assuming 24 Strength)
- Level 20 - CMB 28 (assuming 26 Strength)

4. Expected range of CMBs for CM Specialist, i.e. PC Fighter, Large, Str 24, CM +4 competence bonus (i.e. PC built or prepared for high degree of CM specialization):

- Level 9 - CMB 21
- Level 11 - CMB 23
- Level 16 - CMB 29 (assuming 26 Strength)
- Level 20 - CMB 34 (assuming 28 Strength)

5. We would like to achieve the following:

- ordinary melee characters should be able to try to get out of desperate situations (like escaping grapples) or to try something wild - 5% - 10% chance of success

- competent melee characters should have a reasonable chance to escape grapples, they should not shy away from trying cool maneuvers - 20% - 30% chance of success

- CM specialists should be terrifying opponents and next to impossible to grapple or pin - 60% - 80% chance of success

Conclusions from Pairing Opponents

Comparing abilities listed in previous section we find out that:
- character facing its doppelganger has 30% chance to succeed at maneuver (CMB Defensive DC = 15 + CMB)
- character facing its doppelganger has 5% chance to escape from its grapple (CMB Grapple Defensive DC = 15 + 5 + CMB)
- character facing opponent with higher grapple has extremely low to nil chance of success (there are no natural twenties in CM test)
- average PCs cannot hope to use CM successfully against weaker opponents and fail disastrously against equal CR opponents
- non-optimized melee character vs weaker opponents may feel like facing doppleganger
-non-optimized melee character vs equal CR opponent is going to have low chances of survival (PC's CMB is lower)
- CM specialist using non-existent feat granting +4 to CMB can hope for only to win against significantly weaker opponent. Equal CR opponents are around his power level in addition to their other diverse combat abilities
- CM specialist NOT USING NON-EXISTENT FEAT GRANTING +4 TO CMB simply fails

CMB Formula, Further Conclusions

Current CMB formula:
Base Attack Bonus + Str modifer + CMB size modifer + other modifers

Current CMB defensive DC:
15 + CMB

All significant melee monsters gain BAB at the same rate as fighters, and some gain even faster (Monstrous Humanoids). How is that possible? The answer:
- Challenge Rating is not proportional to Hitdice - CR usually lags behind HD.
- BAB for certain monster types scales with Hitdice as 3/4 or even as 1:1.

Add to this the fact Strength and Size adjustments usually favor monsters and suddenly, with defensive CMB being better by 5 points, the DC scales quickly beyond any hope of making the check into the realm of impossibility.

Without non-existent combat feat granting +4 to CMB even dedicated CM specialist can hope for 25% chance to pull off a stunt. With this feat - they may close on 45%.

So, basically, when you're frontline character, hope that the opponent does not use CM on you (or if he does, that you have buddies to support you). Otherwise, unless your opponent is a wimp in melee, you're going to get grappled, pinned and killed.

Why current CMB formula causes problems?

Four flaws:
- high differences between average melee characters, dedicated melee characters, specialized CM characters and monsters with CM inclinations
- high DCs
- dealing damage is more dependable and often faster to deal with NPCs
- CM used by opponents are deadlier than CM used by PCs

What would be sufficient to annul the flaws:
- reduce differences in order to bring back relevancy of d20 roll into equation (differences in excess of 15 points nullify worth of d20 roll, while differences in excess of 20 points are simply wrong)
- DCs should be reasonable
- there should be a way to deal damage with maneuvers (combat lasts 3 significant rounds, wasting one round on a failed maneuver is bad, wasting all three because you cannot deal damage while failing maneuvers is simply wrong)
- CM lockdown (i.e. total action denial) should not be possible unless attempted by CM specialist (preferably on PC side)

Proof of Concept Fixes

1. To reduce differences change CMB Formula to the following:
1/2 * Base Attack Bonus + Str modifer + CMB size modifer + other modifers

Current CMB defensive DC:
10 + CMB

Current CMB Competence bonus for attacker:
Remove it altogether or, at worst, chance to +2

2. Introduce "Combat Maneuver Specialist" feat:
Combat Maneuver Specialist (Combat)
You are exceptionally skilled with combat maneuvers.
Benefit: Gain +4 competence to any combat maneuver you attempt.
Special: You may use this feat only during your action or your attack of opportunity.
Important: Use of this feat during grapple to resist break grapple attempts would bring us back to inescapable grapples.

3. To compensate Monks (and possibly other Martial Arts classes) for low BAB, either class description or "Improved Unarmed Strike (Combat)" feat should include the following entry:
- Use of Combat Maneuver is subject to +1 competence bonus for every 2 levels this character possesses.
Important: Does not stack with "Combat Maneuver Specialist", compensates for lower BAB and lack of usefulness of "Combat Maneuver Specialist".

4. Introduce the following feats to enhance Combat Maneuver experience:

Combat Maneuver Brutality (Combat)
Your combat maneuvers are exceptionally brutal.
Prerequisite: BAB 6+.
Benefit: Whenever you succeed at Combat Maneuver, you may deal damage with a wielded weapon as per standard attack.
Special: You cannot deal critical damage during maneuver.

Combat Maneuver Follow-up (Combat)
You know how to quickly perform two maneuvers in succession.
Prerequisite: BAB 10+.
Benefit: Whenever you succeed at Combat Maneuver, you may immediately follow up with another Combat Maneuver.
Special: You may use this feat only once per round.

Combat Maneuver Fatality (Combat)
You know how to gain supreme combat advantage through combat maneuvers.
Prerequisite: BAB 12+.
Benefit: Whenever you succeed at two Combat Maneuvers in a row against the same opponent, you may immediately perform Coup De Grace as a free action on this opponent (subject to attacks of opportunity).

5. Introduce Combat Maneuvers which enhance Combat Maneuver experience:

- Grab and Throw (for martial artists)
- special signature attacks for martial artists
- maneuvers which inflict one round negative conditions (Dazed, Shaken, Fatigued, Bleeding)

Regards,
Ruemere


Eggcellent!


Dave Young 992 wrote:
Eggcellent!

Sadly, there are a few errors (spellchecker, multiple text versions and late hour).

Anyway, this is the most important correction to the original:

ruemere wrote:

1. To reduce differences change CMB Formula to the following:

1/2 * Base Attack Bonus + Str modifer + CMB size modifer + other modifers

Fixed CMB defensive DC:
10 + CMB

Fixed CMB Competence bonus for attacker:
Remove it altogether or, at worst, change to +2

In further examples I assume total removal of competence bonus

Next post:
Revised CMB values.

Regards,
Ruemere


REVISED CMB VALUES

Revisiting example CMBs

The fixed CMBs for examples given above use new CMB formula.
Note that there is no need to use separate CMB Defensive value for Grapple checks.

1. Expected range of CMBs for PCs to face is as follows:

- CR 9 - Bone Devil (Osyluth) - Large Outsider, BAB 10, Str 21
CMB 10, CMB Defensive DC 20

- CR 11 - Barbed Devil (Hamatula) - Medium Outsider, BAB 12, Str 23
CMB 12, CMB Defensive DC 22

- CR 16 - Horned Devil (Cornugon) - Large Outsider, BAB 15, Str 31
CMB 17, CMB Defensive DC 27

2. Expected range of CMBs for PC Cleric, Medium, Str 18 (i.e. PC of average melee competence, no special buffs or items factored in):

- Level 9 - BAB 6 - CMB 7
- Level 11 - BAB 8 - CMB 8
- Level 16 - BAB 12 - CMB 10
- Level 20 - BAB 15 - CMB 11

3. Expected range of CMBs for PC Fighter, Medium, Str 22 (i.e. PC of high melee competence, no special buffs or items factored in):

- Level 9 - CMB 10
- Level 11 - CMB 11
- Level 16 - CMB 15 (assuming 24 Strength)
- Level 20 - CMB 18 (assuming 26 Strength)

4. Expected range of CMBs for CM Specialist, i.e. PC Fighter, Large, Str 24, CM +4 competence bonus (i.e. PC built or prepared for high degree of CM specialization - please remember that CMB Defensive does not benefit from +4):

- Level 9 - CMB 16, CMB Defensive 12
- Level 11 - CMB 17, CMB Defensive 13
- Level 16 - CMB 21 (assuming 26 Strength), CMB Defensive 17
- Level 20 - CMB 24 (assuming 28 Strength), CMB Defensive 20

5. Changes to the CMB have the following consequences (we are assuming that "+5 competence bonus" rule is dropped from grapple):
- character facing its doppelganger has 55% chance to succeed at maneuver (CMB Defensive DC = 10 + CMB), and escaping from grapple is not exception to this
- character facing opponent with higher grapple has its chance roughly halved for opponents 2 CR above his level, but NOT REDUCED TO ZERO
- average PCs can freely use CMs with decent chance of success against weaker and equal CR opponents
- non-optimized melee character can safely face equal CR opponents unless they are really good at CM
- CM specialist shines in offense, she is very good at maneuver defensive, but she is still not absolute, as even average melee character can hope to escape from CM specialist grapple [at 5% to 10% chance, though]

Murky Waters

There are still unresolved issues with this approach, chiefly when CM Monsters acquires feats used by CM Specialist. However, even in such cases CM Specialists may still hope to prevail.

----

Anyway, I think we are going to switch to this version of CM rules, since it covers high level range better (at least during tentative playtest made using party characters).

Regards,
Ruemere


PS. Here is the link to the playtest situation which got me thinking about revising CMB formula:
melee characters eliminated by Black Tentacles.

Regards,
Ruemere

Scarab Sages

Yup, in my games CMB will be 12+ not 15+...

Fighter's don't need that much help. IMHO.


Pathfinder X wrote:

Yup, in my games CMB will be 12+ not 15+...

Fighter's don't need that much help. IMHO.

Could you elaborate, please?

Regards,
Ruemere

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