Opposition School Spells


Classes: Sorcerer and Wizard


Rather than lose a special ability when casating a spell from an opposition school does anyone think it might be a good idea to make opposition school spells count as one level higher?

This way specialists will not lose their abilities and still retain the ability to cast spells of every school if they wish but for someone who has evocation as an opposition school fireball would use a 4th level slot rather than a 3rd level slot?


Skullking wrote:

Rather than lose a special ability when casating a spell from an opposition school does anyone think it might be a good idea to make opposition school spells count as one level higher?

This way specialists will not lose their abilities and still retain the ability to cast spells of every school if they wish but for someone who has evocation as an opposition school fireball would use a 4th level slot rather than a 3rd level slot?

Given how worthless the specialist bonuses are I don't really see why you'd bother specializing or why you would be shaken up about losing the bonuses...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Skullking wrote:

Rather than lose a special ability when casating a spell from an opposition school does anyone think it might be a good idea to make opposition school spells count as one level higher?

This way specialists will not lose their abilities and still retain the ability to cast spells of every school if they wish but for someone who has evocation as an opposition school fireball would use a 4th level slot rather than a 3rd level slot?

I'd make casting an opposition school spell like casting a metamatgically enhanced spell (+1 level)rather than just a higher level. Otherwise I know someone would argue that it should have a higher DC as it's a higher level spell. Same effect, different wording to close off an exploit.

I'd give the specialist something to make up for it, like cast specialty spells as +1 caster level and raise the cap by one (so an Evoker could end up casting 6 magic missiles rather than five at his highest levels, and his fireballs would do +1d6 damage at the maximum level). That is something that no universalist can achieve and might give a reason to be a specialist.

Scarab Sages

I still think opposition should mean opposition, but if I have to hold my nose and accept that the majority of players somehow think the class is weak, and needs to become more powerful across the board, then this increase in spell level for 'prohibited' spells would act as damage-limitation.

It has a precedent in the 'Combined Spells' ability of the Mystic Theurge, in which spells from the 'wrong' list count as one level higher.
It could be argued that the Specialist could be charged two levels, since the Mystic Theurge has at least had to give something up.

Other possibilities include;

Reduced Effective Caster Level (-2? That would match being 'one spell level' behind).

Reduced Save DC (not ideal as the sole limitation, since this would only really affect offensive spells, and leave the character free to cast opposition buffs all day).

Whatever the limitation, it should be simple to remember and apply, and affect all schools (unlike, say Spell Focus (Abjuration), which, as written, is a feat that does virtually nothing).

Scarab Sages

While I remember, I see that the -5 penalty to Spellcraft checks, for opposition spells, is tucked away in the text of the skill description.

It's not mentioned in other appropriate areas, such as 'Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks', or 'Adding Spells to a Spellbook' (Beta, page 166).

This makes it easy to honestly miss (or in the case of an unscrupulous player, to 'miss'). Players familiar with the 3.5 rule may simply assume that it's been dropped in the new rules.

Please can this be added to those paragraphs in the Magic section, and a line added to the Skill table on page 72?

Scarab Sages

The paragraph on 'Spells Gained at a New Level' does specify that one of the new spells must be from the specialist school, but puts no restrictions on adding one of those difficult-to-learn opposition spells, bypassing the necessity of a learning roll.

Is this intentional? Or should these 2 free spells be from the caster's more familiar schools?

(Yes, I am aware that at higher levels, we can assume the caster has maxed his Spellcraft, and can ace the DC, but this can make a difference in the early game, delaying the acquisition of that spell until next character level.)

Scarab Sages

Beta, page 194 wrote:

Most wizards chose one school of magic over all others. Due to their devotion, they gain a number of abilities based on the school of magic chosen. In addition, each school grants the

specialist wizard a bonus ability so long as he did not prepare any spells of his opposition schools that day. Wizards without a favored school gain access to the universal school and do not gain a specialist bonus ability.

Please can this be clarified?

As it stands, it's unclear whether;

1) the caster loses access to all the specialist school abilities (Bonus spells, Specialist Bonus and the powers gained at levels 1/8/20), or,

2) loses access to all the abilities listed in the school description (Specialist Bonus, plus powers from levels 1/8/20, but keeps the bonus spells/day), or

3) merely loses the single Specialist Bonus ability (listed first in each school description, eg Resist Energy 5 for Abjuration).

If it is 3), then it's a toothless restriction for several schools, given that some school bonuses are weak (Evocation) or irrelevant (Necromancy, until caster level 7). Others start out as attractive, but are soon outmatched by actual spells.

Even under definition 2), the class is still much better than before, as a specialist keeps the bonus spells, and can freely prepare opposition spells that were flat-out banned before, and only misses out on abilities that never existed before.

Only definition 1) actually hits where it matters, in the spells/day.


Snorter wrote:
Beta, page 194 wrote:

3) merely loses the single Specialist Bonus ability (listed first in each school description, eg Resist Energy 5 for Abjuration).

If it is 3), then it's a toothless restriction for several schools, given that some school bonuses are weak (Evocation) or irrelevant (Necromancy, until caster level 7). Others start out as attractive, but are soon outmatched by actual spells.

I thought that about the Necromancer - what is the point of losing the ability to control extra created undead when you cannot create them until level 7? Hardly a deterrent.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Put me down for having opposition schools either be completely unavailable or require higher level slots to cast. I extremely dislike specialists still being able to cast opposition school spells.

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