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If someone drops a fireball on an unsuspecting, flat-footed foe, should he be entitled to apply his Dex bonus to his Reflex save?
Interesting. Right now, flat-footed = 1) loss of Dex bonus to AC, and 2) no AoOs. Adding 3) loss of Dex bonus to Reflex saves is certainly logical.
It would make everyone more vulnerable in the first two rounds (surprise and the 1st round before your initiative comes up), and any "everyone" effect effects PCs more because they have more encounters than anyone else, so this would weaken them a little. I'd guess feats and abilities that preserve Dex bonus to AC (Uncanny Dodge, etc.) would preserve Dex bonus to Reflex as well.
How often do these situations come up? How often are PCs making Reflex saves while flat-footed? As I said, first two rounds, but also when feinted in combat, ... traps ...
Hmmm ... traps. Would you now have to do Perception checks and roll initiative vs. traps to see if they catch you flat-footed? Right now Reflex kind of assumes that you ARE surprised and it's your ability to dodge WHEN SURPRISED. Saves are more like unconscious reflexes than conscious choices, your ability to resist when you can't uses your other abilities.
But just suppressing the Dex bonus part would represent the temporary loss of your conscious ability to help out your natural reflexes.
Like I said, it logically makes sense to me. I'm not sure how much it adds to or detracts from play, and it may complicate traps. In either case, good question. I'm interested to hear what other folks think.
First, Everyone gets a save. Even a bound and helpless character gets a save. There are no circumstances that force someone to automatically fail a save.
Second, saves are as much luck as training. You happened to be in a pocket of the fireball that wasn't as hot, or whatever. You grabbed the ledge when the pit trap opened up beneath you. You shouldn't have any penalties to any saves because of surprise.
Third, when your expecting an effect, you should be able to get some kind of bonus on saves. Reflex already handles this; by moving behind cover you get a bonus on saves. It would be good if you could tense up or gather your resolve as a move action to gain a bonus on fortitude and will saves, too.
My thoughts, anyway...