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As it stands currently, anyone can get a second attack by using a second weapon in their off hand. This second attack comes with a pretty big penalty unless you have the feat Two-Weapon Fighting.
My idea is to add a second way for a person to get an extra attack by adding an option that works very much like two-weapon attacks. Call it "Second Strike." Anybody wielding a dagger or other light weapon can make a second attack vs. the same opponent, even if they only normally have one attack per round. The first attack is at -4 and the second is at -8 (just like two-weapon attack when the off-hand is light). Now create a feat called Improved Second Strike or something that reduces those penalties to -2 and -2, again just like two-weapon fighting with the feat. Toss a Dex 13 prereq or even a BAB +1 to keep everyone from taking it. Maybe create a Greater Second Strike that allows sneak attack damage to apply to both attacks!
It shouldn't be unbalanced because it doesn't add anything that isn't already there. There is already a way to gain an additional attack by using an off-hand weapon. But the flavor is different from what already exists. You could also gain an additional attack by using the same light weapon twice, real quick.
Can we add the rapier to the proposal? It could concievably be used with the same style, rapid thrusts in succession, and the only difference between a rapier and a shortsword is 1 point of critical range. (I'm not for adding all finessible weapons, this is NOT a spiked chain tactic lmao)
Is there any reason someone wielding one of the weapons *wouldn't* take this option? Mathematically, an additional attack for a feat along with str bonus is well worth it, even at a 10% lower chance to hit.
If it eliminates the original option, it's a false choice.
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If it eliminates the original option, it's a false choice.
True. But if it's such a good option, why isn't everyone wielding two weapons all the time? The penalties and feat-cost of my idea are exactly the same.
Now, I'm not in favor of allowing rapiers, as kyrt-ryder suggested, because that makes an already good weapon even better. The idea for Second Strike grew out of me trying to make daggers more effective (although many people gave me good reasons why they are already pretty good). I expanded it to include all light weapons to make it affect a category rather than a specific weapon, although things like light mace and light pick don't really fit my idea of a Second Strike weapon; maybe it should just go back to daggers.
Also, in re-reading the weapons section, I realize that what I'm suggesting isn't just similar to two-weapon fighting, it is also the same as using a double weapon. Most double weapons are exotic, but not a quarterstaff. In fact, that one is simple, like a dagger. And does more damage at d6/d6 (although a dagger has a better crit range).
So maybe it would be better to think of second strike as part of a trio of 2-for-1 attacks that includes two-weapon fighting and double weapons, all of which have the same penalty structure.
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As long as you made it take a full-round action, I see it being no worse than Rapid Shot since you can't Power Attack with light weapons.
Two-weapon attacks are still a single standard action, right? What about using both ends of a double weapon? Those are kinda' what I'm comparing it to at this point.
Good comparison to Rapid Shot, though. Maybe call it Rapid Strike rather than Second Strike.
because that makes an already good weapon even better.
I really hate sentences like this: putting logic and common sense to the bin for dogma
apart from that I like the idea, but I would like to include all light and finessable weapons.
the spiked chain is already buggered by not being a double weapon, even though in the picture of the 3.5 rule book it looks like one
Perhaps I am missing something, but what you are proposing sounds an awful lot like Two Weapon Fighting. The only difference I can see is the Dex 13 prerequisite vs the Dex 15 prerequisite.
Just my 2 cp.
Perhaps I am missing something, but what you are proposing sounds an awful lot like Two Weapon Fighting. The only difference I can see is the Dex 13 prerequisite vs the Dex 15 prerequisite.
it also comes at a discount of 50% in weapons: just one magical weapon will do the damage of two,
plus you can use a heavy shield for +2AC as opposed to Two Weapon Defense for a measly +1, or a magic shield for even more + to AC which a magic weapon does not grant..
with prerequisites of DEX 10+x & Weapon Finesse*, it would make a good extension to Weapon Finesse, for those of us who don't want to go down the TWF path,
plus, it wouldn't give the use of shield for free as the ACP applies to Weapon Finesse
* alternatively: Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus + it applies only to one finessable weapon type of choice (the one I focused on)
I'm thinking especially of the rapier here, as that is fast moving weapon
weighs 2lb. as opposed to the 'light' simple weapon 'Mace, Light' with 4lb, just to hit in the same gap as my last post
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Perhaps I am missing something, but what you are proposing sounds an awful lot like Two Weapon Fighting. The only difference I can see is the Dex 13 prerequisite vs the Dex 15 prerequisite.
It's supposed to be. Mostly flavor difference - a weapon in each hand vs. two quick swipes with the same weapon (I'm thinking like a switchblade fight).
As for the Dex 13 prereq for the Improved Second Strike feat, I goofed and remembered the Two-Weapon Fighting feat as having a Dex 13 prereq. If TWF has a Dex 15 prereq, I'd give Second Strike a DEX 15 prereq too, again to keep them as similar and balanced as possible.
You might also want to state specifically that Rapid Strike can't be used in conjunction with two-weapon fighting, to avoid higher level dagger fighters taking both feat chains to the point where they're getting 12+ attacks a round.
Corrosive Rabbit
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it also comes at a discount of 50% in weapons: just one magical weapon will do the damage of two, plus you can use a heavy shield for +2AC as opposed to Two Weapon Defense for a measly +1, or a magic shield for even more + to AC which a magic weapon does not grant.
Good catch, I hadn't thought of that before.
The cost reduction I'm totally okay with. Not sure on the shield though. Obviously, this idea is public property now and folks can do what they want with it, but my original thought was two guys with switch blades - snick, snick, one fluid movement. The off-hand wouldn't have to be empty, but it shouldn't be loaded down either. Bucklers would definitely be okay, maybe a small shield, but probably not a large shield (at least not in my mind). A weapon would be okay but I wouldn't want to see folks combining this with TWF to get 4 attacks as a standard action. If you had a weapon in each hand, you'd have to choose, use both or use one twice. So I'd add a line that says something like 'The off-hand doesn't have to be empty but anything held in the off-hand should be small and shouldn't prevent free movement; bucklers and small shields are permissible, as are light and one-handed weapons and other small objects." (For comparison sake, the new Dualist's Precision Strike ability says a weapon in the off-hand is okay but you can't use it, and no shields.)
... it would make a good extension to Weapon Finesse, for those of us who don't want to go down the TWF path,
plus, it wouldn't give the use of shield for free as the ACP applies to Weapon Finesse.* alternatively: ... it applies only to one finessable weapon type of choice (the one I focused on)
Both good ideas. It really brings up the issue of which weapons to allow.
Light Weapons
punching dagger
spiked gauntlet
(and thus gauntlet and unarmed strike by default)
light mace
sickle
throwing axe
light hammer
handaxe
kukri
light pick
sap
light shield
spiked armor
skiked light shield
starknife
short sword
kama
nunchaku
sai
siangham
plus Finessable Weapons
whip
spiked chain
That seems like way too many weapons to make eligible for a second strike, even at a heavy penalty without the feat. Two shots with a 4 lb light mace? No way.
What about light and finessable piercing/slashing weapons? Still a pretty long list, but it removes the worst offenders.
Or weapons weighing 2 lbs or less?
punching dagger
spiked gauntlet
gauntlet
unarmed strike
sickle
throwing axe
light hammer
kukri
sap
short sword
kama
nunchaku
sai
siangham
rapier
whip
I've never seen anything else that limits eligibility by weight, but the list makes more intuitive sense.
Or just make a list of the weapons we think ought to qualify (but that always leads to argument).
Or weapons weighing 2 lbs or less?
<snipped Spoiler<I've never seen anything else that limits eligibility by weight, but the list makes more intuitive sense.
even more intuitive sense: 2lb max, balanced or lighter towards the 'bad to be at' end
i.e.:
light hammer: no
short sword: yes
Nunchaku: yes
sap: no
with axes, hammers, sap you are practically swinging the full 2lb at the end of a light stick, which gives it just as much momentum (turnround power required) as a 4lb scimitar
Isn't this exactly what the (soon to be deleted) Weapon Swap feat does?
