CMB Language Clarification

[Krome]

Yes, everyone knew I would be jumping on this one.

The language of the CMB defines CMB as:
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier +special size modifer

Then in the paragraph on page 150, left column, Performing a Combat Maneuver, it states:
When you perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB to the result plus any bonuses you might have due to specific feats or abilities.

So, we look up what an attack roll is (p 131 Attack Roll):
When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus.
(Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) First of all there is an entire sentence in parenthesis and it should not be :)

So we look up what the Attack Bonus is:
Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier

So, to make a Combat Maneuver using the CMB we have
d20+Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifer + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier, or simplified:
d20 + 2x Base attack bonus + 2x Strength modifier (size modifiers cancel each other).

I know the intention is for the CMB to be simply
d20 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier +special size modifer

But, a close reading of the language indicates that is not the way it is written. This REALLY NEEDS to be clarified. Imagine when someone shows up at GenCon next year and start fighting with a CMB of d20 + 2x Base attack bonus + 2x Strength modifier. The GM will say that is not correct, s/he will show where it IS correct and the game will be a crapper from then on because of the HUGE modifier for CMB. They can "house rule it" the intended way, but as I understand it, Pathfinder Society does not allow "house rules" in competitions- so they could not "fix it" at a Con.

[Galnörag]

Seems like a clear language change.

Bumping for agreement

[Krome]

Galnörag wrote:

Seems like a clear language change.

Bumping for agreement

Thanks.

Seems most people are content to allow CMB to amazingly overpowered though.

Through scenarios I posted on other topics earlier, allowing CMB to remain as is will result in it mathematically being preferable for a Fighter to always Grapple starting as early as level 8. After level 10 a grapple will generally only fail on a roll of 1!

[Elf_NFB]

I'm going to agree to needed changes as well. Like it was said, the intention is fairly clear, but you just KNOW someone is going to make an issue of it. :)

[Duncan & Dragons]

Sounds like you are correct. Should this be under typos/errata?

[lastknightleft]

woohoo I just got a lot better at CMBs yay :)

[Max Money]

Not how I read it, but then again I'm not really much of a rules lawyer. Not saying anyone is one. I applaud the tenacity that it took to read through everything to find these instances and point out how this could be broken.

Bravo.

[sowhereaminow]

Quick FYI - Jason clarified this waaaay back in September during the Fighter playtest. The roll is d20 + CMB vs. DC15 + CMB.

If you're curious, check out the Fighter: CMB Bonus with Weapon Training thread in the archives for the Fighter playtest. (Sorry, don't know how to set up a link!)

Krome, you even gave many thanks for this clarification (OK, three thanks)way back on September 19. Of course, Jason did ask for this to be brought up in the Combat playtest. Good call!

[Jason Bulmahn]

sowhereaminow wrote:

Quick FYI - Jason clarified this waaaay back in September during the Fighter playtest. The roll is d20 + CMB vs. DC15 + CMB.

If you're curious, check out the Fighter: CMB Bonus with Weapon Training thread in the archives for the Fighter playtest. (Sorry, don't know how to set up a link!)

Krome, you even gave many thanks for this clarification (OK, three thanks)way back on September 19. Of course, Jason did ask for this to be brought up in the Combat playtest. Good call!

Correct. This is d20 + CMB vs DC 15 + Opp CMB....

This needs to be posted to the errata thread.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing