Golarion and Reincarnation (Or, "I'm a nice gnoll- honest!")


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

1 to 50 of 76 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

So, last night Mokmurion disintegrates the monk.

(What a great opening sentence)

They kick his ass for that and four Chapters worth of other grief, and then sweep the monk up into a little leather pouch. Then they seek out powerful druids to help, along with a generous offering.

The PC rolls his fate, and he comes back as a gnoll.

In a bit of good natured fun, the other players find him a new minature this morning

But in all seriousness, the Player now wonders if there is any point to playing the character any more.. or if he should roll up another one.

When I stop and think about it, its a fair question. Unless you're willing to play a social pariah, an outcast, is there much reason to press on?

How does Golarion react to this sort of reincarnation? Or, if that is too broad of a question, how does Varisia?


Wow...I'm thinking of the sheer role-playing fun this character could be. And the mini is too frigging perfect for words.

Just think...the neo-gnoll angst. The sudden cravings for raw meat. The disruption of inner tranquility by savage urges.

Gosh...this guy should go whole hog, full tilt, no guts no glory and role-play! It would be awesome!

And if the local villagers light their torches and brandish pitchforks...well, it's time for some Gnoll Fuey!

Grand Lodge

Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:

Wow...I'm thinking of the sheer role-playing fun this character could be. And the mini is too frigging perfect for words.

Just think...the neo-gnoll angst. The sudden cravings for raw meat. The disruption of inner tranquility by savage urges.

Gosh...this guy should go whole hog, full tilt, no guts no glory and role-play! It would be awesome!

And if the local villagers light their torches and brandish pitchforks...well, it's time for some Gnoll Fuey!

I agree this sounds like just way too much fun. Could easily become the most memorable character he ever plays!


What's wrong with being a non major race. He is stronger than he was. He is quicker. He is never unarmed (nice claws and teeth). He can now take a natural weapon feat.

Also, gnolls are not animalistic savages.

Spoiler:
I have seen a gnoll as the captain of a trading vessel.

Let the PC have fun with his new body. Let him revel in his new fierceness.
CRY HAVOK, AND LET SLIP THE DOGS OF WAR!!!!

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

I agree - he should go for it. Besides most of the time left in the AP is not going to be in Magnimar or even Sandpoint for that matter... I doubt that those in Xin-Shalast will care if he is a Gnoll or a Dwarf.

Grand Lodge

Shem wrote:
I agree - he should go for it. Besides most of the time left in the AP is not going to be in Magnimar or even Sandpoint for that matter... I doubt that those in Xin-Shalast will care if he is a Gnoll or a Dwarf.

yeah but for fun you gotta get him into towns just for the sheer fun of it. All kinds of fun can happen.

If he does well, I might reward him later with returning his old body to him, gratitude from the gods... unless he decides he likes his new bestial form better.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Krome wrote:


yeah but for fun you gotta get him into towns just for the sheer fun of it. All kinds of fun can happen.

Yes, there is that...

Paizo Employee Managing Developer

Watcher wrote:

So, last night Mokmurion disintegrates the monk.

(What a great opening sentence)

Heh. I had the same thing happen, however it was the druid who got dusted.

Prior to that we had a couple of reincarnates in our group, and fearing there would be more, I drew up this chart to make the rolls a bit more Golarion-friendly. I know this isn't completely on topic, but I thought I might share my Reincarnation Table.


Thanks for the feedback folks..

And thanks for that neat table Daigle!

I was in a conversation today at lunch, with a 4E fan, and we were talking about reincarnation and he asserted that it was a hold-over from a Gygaxian approach towards player torment. (If I dimly recall from 1st edition you could be reincarnated as badgers and the like).

I don't know if I agree with him, but I do question the value of a spell that prompts players to discard their characters.

I will point the player to this thread.

EDIT: And of course, Paizo Editorial is also welcome to make their own observations!

Shadow Lodge

As a PC, I LOVE reincarnate. One of my most memorable characters was the subject of a reincarnate spell.

In the Age of Worms AP I had a care-free though arrogant high elf wizard. Fairly typical, by and large. However, after his reincarnation as a halfling everything went downhill, and it was great! Being an elitist, he hated his new body, which eventually also had a horribly shriveled, putrefied fetal stump of an arm, festering worms embedded into his brain, an increasingly dour and bitter attitude that led him to cast off his prismatic robes and wear ones instead that were black satin with emerald worms embroidered on them, and eventually got an alignment shift as he dubbed himself Supreme Archmage of Redhand and dominated Hemriss to make her his bodyguard/consort at the end of the AP.

All because an elf woke up on day as a halfling and hated the world for it. :D

Sovereign Court

Of course, none of you guys are answering the original question. It's all well and good that 'gnolls are awesome' or whatever, but how are people going to react to a Gnoll hanging out in the local pub, or trying to buy potions at the potionesserie? Are people going to drive him out with scourges because he's a race that explicitly worships Lamashtu and stole their babies for slaves and dinner six months ago?

Now, if they just wrapped up issue 4 of RotRl it really doesn't matter as they're not going to be seeing civilization from this point out, and it's not going to matter in, say, Sandpoint where they know he was 'their' monk who just got reincarnated (although they may wonder about his karma. I mean, a gnoll? What'd he do to earn that?), but it's a valid question. Golarion isn't Eberron. People aren't just going to shrug and say, "Yeah, he's a gnoll monk, and he runs a day care for orphaned half-elves. Good guy."

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Watcher wrote:

(If I dimly recall from 1st edition you could be reincarnated as badgers and the like).

Anyone who's ever read Redwall and its sequels know that badgers are badasses.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And you'd better watch out if you meet a badger with a staff of the archmagi. Particularly if accompanied by a centaur thief (sorry, that's "rogue" these days) and a pixie paladin.

To say that that group has a chip on its collective shoulder about the Reincarnate spell would be a big understatement! :)


cappadocius wrote:

Of course, none of you guys are answering the original question. It's all well and good that 'gnolls are awesome' or whatever, but how are people going to react to a Gnoll hanging out in the local pub, or trying to buy potions at the potionesserie? Are people going to drive him out with scourges because he's a race that explicitly worships Lamashtu and stole their babies for slaves and dinner six months ago?

Surely he will be met with distrust and racism, especially by those who do not know his comrades. He might be found sleeping in barns instead of the inn, arranged for that purpose by his friends dealing with a tolerant local. He can't drink in taverns, he can't speak openly to nobles, etc.

Even so, I think people and towns that are good-aligned are willing to accept the possibility of a good monstrous humanoid. In a world where curses really have the power to bind people in monstrous forms, there must be myths like Beauty and the Beast that are cautionary tales. A good person should see through a curse. Evil, selfish, authoritarian or anarchist peoples may not take the time to understand, but Good means something.

They may not fully trust a gnoll, but torches and pitchforks aren't a "good" response. I think you should mix up the reactions, anyway.

Scarab Sages

I think he should have been turned into a baboon, and then he'd get to travel around with Jane Seymour.

Prize for the first link to what I'm on about.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

That this spell exists would tend to mean there's also popular stories about it.

If the gangly dog-man is cracking jokes in the local (or another recognizable) dialect, and is travelling amongst a band of other "acceptable" humanoids, I'd rather think that your normal citizens would at least PONDER the possibility that this is in-deed a "Re-Incarnated" person, the kind that numerous sources speak of, and that one guy a couple towns over even claims to be. Such a character would be instantly noticeable, of course, but why wouldn't they just be treated as a fascinating curiosity?

The instant-violent-exclusion reaction I only really see as appropriate in Human(oid) communities who ARE CURRENTLY IN violent conflict with Gnolls, and thus the appearance of a Gnoll would trigger that readied, familiar response. Even those situations should be able to be dealt with (just like Half-Orcs), but the vast majority of Human(oids) do NOT live in areas that are commonly threatened by Gnolls (thus their response would more likely be "What IS that guy?" rather than "A GNOLL! KILL IT!").

...And I hardly see how being a "social pariah, an outcast" would be restricted to non-Human(oids).
Do your Humans really treat all nationalities of Humans as social equals?
(for that matter, I have personal distaste for the common D&D convention/crutch that all the "PC races" are somehow COMPLETELY acceptable in ways that Gnolls would not be. personally, i can see Dwarves being (or VIEWED as being) really, really evil. Elves too. (they BROUGHT ON cosmic apocalypse to Golarion, right?) and who would REALLY trust a Halfling, much less a Gnome?)

I liked in 2nd Edition's Al-Qadim, there was a Rogue "kit" (I forget the exact name) that was basically your dirty, nasty street bum. The variant abilities were like slipping into/thru crowds "invisibly". I think they semi-permanently had a large penalty to "caste" or "status". Personally, I would question why there is such a problem playing a "Good" person that other (prejudiced) people might react to as "Bad" or "Unworthy"? Isn't that the best opportunity to truly role-play GOOD, rather than just benefitting from group prejudices?

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Snorter, you're talking about Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger.

Two notes and a question:

1) I imagine that human cultures around Absalom, Oppara, or Katheer view gnolls differently than, say, Riddleport. It seems like sentient-nature to begin any relationship with an individual gnoll as if the gnoll were representing gnoll society.

So, find out what gnolls, in general, are doing in a place, and that should inform your basic first-impression. If gnolls aren't seen very often around the area, I'm guessing that the Pc would be treated as a typical beast-man.

1a) And that goes for humanoids, as well. Gnolls have always struck me as "the Joker" of the barbarian humanoids. They're Lammashtu's darlings. They have the instincts of hyenas. They're the crazy guys that hobgoblins and orcs don't want anything to do with.

1b) If the PC's monastic robes are distinctive and well-known, I'd guess that the costume would be as influential as the character's race. I'm thinking about all the alien Jedi knights. It's one thing to see a wookie in the wild. It's another to see a serene wookie approach wearing the robes of the order.

2) More telling than all of this, of course, is the reaction of the player. Apparently, he's just unhappy playing a gnoll. I'd find out why: does he wear the reincarnation as a badge of shame? Did he have political or romantic aspirations for the character? Are the other players acting like knuckle-heads?

I'd address the underlying issues. No amount of people here reassuring him "But gnolls are kewl" is going to change his mind if we don't address his reasons.

And a question: how, exactly, does the spell work? Does it take a normal, healthy, adult human of the chosen stock, rip out its soul and memories, and supplant them with the PC's? Does it create a brand new body from the elements? Does it duplicate a random being? Is there a monster that eats souls, but leaves living husks behind, for the spell to fill?

Is the random roll a reflection of the will of a deity, either the dead character's god or the god who's powering the spell? If so, what message are the heavens trying to send in this case?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Well... looking at the idea by region, these are my thoughts.

In Korvosa, he should have the biggest problems because the societal alignment there is not inherently good, and in addition, has a tradition of racism towards non-Chelish types, let alone toward non-human humanoids.

Riddleport might be problematic, because life and death are cheap there, and if a gnoll gets killed in the street, nobody's going to complain. That said, I'd tend to use Riddleport as a wretched hive of scum and villainy where anything goes as long as the cash still flows. If a hobgoblin sea-captain docks up at port, providing his coin is good, he's a paying customer. I find it useful to have places where the "enemy races" can interact and trade with the bastions of human civilisation as semi-neutral zones, particularly if there isn't an actual active war. Otherwise, I'm not wholey sure where they're spending their human-minted gold. Not sure that's how it is by "canon," but that's how I'd run it.

In Magnimar, I'd imagine a lot of due process, a lot of holding at checkpoints, interviews, and vouching for identity and good character. With alignment detection spells, legal knowledge of the existence of the reincarnation spell, and the fact he can demonstrate he's a temple trained monk, I'd suggest he could finally get a legal pass denoting him as a safe gnoll.

It's also worth noting, I don't think gnolls or hyenas are actually native to Varisia, so he may be almost as much of a curiousity as a threat. I won't go far as to suggest everyone'll go "DOGGY!" when they see him, (well, maybe the golems,) but they might not have the reflexive reaction of fear that comes from viewing gnolls raids as a real and valid danger.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Watcher wrote:


...
When I stop and think about it, its a fair question. Unless you're willing to play a social pariah, an outcast, is there much reason to press on?
...

On a purely mechanical side (the roleplaying side having been adressed) your PCs are probably around 12th level so Polymorph Any Object isn't so far out of reach.

The character could get permanently morphed back to human by contracting a caster (not super-likely for a 15th level caster), get hold of a scroll (a bit more likely), wait for another PC to get acces to the spell (likely but has to wait)or just keep on playing the character who is hoping to get that fix at some point in the future.

Scarab Sages

Chris Mortika wrote:
Snorter, you're talking about Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger.

And we have a winner!

It's the ...Eye of the Tiger, it's the fame of the fight,
Rising up to the challenge of our rivals...

Yeah, that baboon would have totally reamed Sylvester Stallone and B.A. Baracus, if the referees hadn't stopped the fight on a technicality.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Watcher wrote:
When I stop and think about it, its a fair question. Unless you're willing to play a social pariah, an outcast, is there much reason to press on?

If the new gnoll invests in a Hat of Disguise, he can go into town much more easily.


Watcher wrote:
I was in a conversation today at lunch, with a 4E fan, and we were talking about reincarnation and he asserted that it was a hold-over from a Gygaxian approach towards player torment. (If I dimly recall from 1st edition you could be reincarnated as badgers and the like).

Yes, but in 1e, you could also come back as a troll. In fact, I know of one occassion in a homebrew setting where a dwarf follower of Thor was reincarnated as a troll.

Nonetheless, reincarnation does have some problems. In my last Planescape campaign a character was reincarnated as a kobold. The nerf to physical attibutes made him next to useless (the character was a soulknife). He was one of the groups main melee combatants.

In my Age of Worms campaign, the Archivist would have come back as a halfling. Given the character's already low Strength, the strength penalty and small size would have crippled her carrying capacity. In this case, I used my DM control to have her come back as a Tiefling instead. It fit the circumstances.

Another problem with the spell is that address races that have humanoid HD, such as lizard folk, gnolls, and bugbears.


Another problem with the spell is that address races that have humanoid HD,
such as lizard folk, gnolls, and bugbears.

...What does this mean?
Anyhow, I'd certainly expect some people (in-game) to oppose Reincarnation on "moral grounds"
And if you really don't like it... There's always Death!

EDIT:
There's obviously a philosophical difference between those that love Reincarnate and those that can't stand it.
Personally, that there could potentially be a "down-side" to some effect seems INTERESTING to me.
Otherwise, everything is just a dimensionless "power up".
In any case, I don't see how any complaints about forms (monstrous forms, weak halfings, etc)
hold up given that by the time you might contemplate a Reincarnation, you could certainly afford/ be able to create a magic item (Hat of Disguise, Item of Bull's Strength, etc) that would overcome pretty much any penalty your form might have. I really don't see this changing that much, given it's current functionality is needed for "backwards compatability", and nobody ever has to cast it if they don't want to.

Paizo Employee Managing Developer

Personally, at my table, the player rolls and I roll on the chart, then we giggle, and I end up with the final decision of how it will all shake out. After that I take the player outside and talk them through the experience. I think reincarnation is a much more personal experience than just plain ol' raise or resurrection. There's also far more potential to work in some good role-play issues into it all. Although the rules do not state it, I think the GM, using the wisdom of their position and a reasonable consensus of what would be best for the group, should usher forth the best result from this whole thing.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Watcher wrote:

So, last night Mokmurion disintegrates the monk.

(What a great opening sentence)

They kick his ass for that and four Chapters worth of other grief, and then sweep the monk up into a little leather pouch. Then they seek out powerful druids to help, along with a generous offering.

The PC rolls his fate, and he comes back as a gnoll.

In a bit of good natured fun, the other players find him a new minature this morning

But in all seriousness, the Player now wonders if there is any point to playing the character any more.. or if he should roll up another one.

When I stop and think about it, its a fair question. Unless you're willing to play a social pariah, an outcast, is there much reason to press on?

There are no such things as "social pariahs" or "outcasts" at 12th level. Society doesn't like you? That's society problems. Consider the fact, that Korvosa and Magnimar are the only places in Varisia which can offer any meaningful resistance to your party, and you still likely can conquer Magnimar with minumum planning and preparation. Any other settlement is helpless before your might and can only hope not to provoke PCs anger, so even if the party is known as nice people, its inhabitants should know better than test, whether this is really true. Unless your DM loves making NPCs with poor self-preservation instintcs, you shouldn't have any problem.

Watcher wrote:
How does Golarion react to this sort of reincarnation? Or, if that is too broad of a question, how does Varisia?

Varisia shuts up and puts up. Unless PCs go out of their way to kill, rape and pillage, no one is going to risk the wrath of people who just scoured the Hook Mountain and ripped through an army of giants. If they say that this gnoll is their companion and can be trusted, who would dare to doubt them? And who would even think of giving lip to a gnoll, wearing enough magical equipment to glow in the dark with ambient energy. Unless you're got quite a few levels under your belt (unlike average shopkeepers or whatever citizens you're likely to have interaction with), he's likely can reduce you to red mist in an instant. Just be glad he didn't start with that.


Three words:

Spoiler:
Hat of Disguise


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Quandary wrote:

Another problem with the spell is that address races that have humanoid HD,

such as lizard folk, gnolls, and bugbears.
...What does this mean?

I believe what the poster meant was "it fails to address races that have humanoid HD." And as much as I enjoy reincarnate (which I do,) it is a valid point.

Let's say the PC was a 12th level monk. Gnolls have 2 HD & a +1 level adjustment. Taking into account that reincarnate gives a permanent negative level instead of costing an actual level, 12 + 2 racial HD + 1 level adjustment means.. is he now a 15th level PC? Does this unbalance him relative to his party? For a player to roll a gnoll monk as a PC for this party (which we assume averages 12th level,) they would likely be asked to make a character that fits the effective party level, a gnoll monk 9, who'd count as a 12th level PC. Does the reincarnated PC have to drop levels to fit this, or does he get a pass to break out of the party balance curve, so to speak?

... the rules, they are silent.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

This naturally leads me to conclude that my next Gnoll PC will go around telling people that he's really Sir Justin of Malebrionte, who died in single combat with a Vrock during the Third Mendevian Campaign, and was reincarnated by a whimsical gnomish druid ally.

Of course, he'll have an Int of 8 and act like a savage, eating his meat raw, shunning the concept of bathing, growling at people and eating bugs that he picks out of his fur, but he'll still *insist* that he's a reincarnated Paladin...

Scarab Sages

Set wrote:

This naturally leads me to conclude that my next Gnoll PC will go around telling people that he's really Sir Justin of Malebrionte, who died in single combat with a Vrock during the Third Mendevian Campaign, and was reincarnated by a whimsical gnomish druid ally.

Of course, he'll have an Int of 8 and act like a savage, eating his meat raw, shunning the concept of bathing, growling at people and eating bugs that he picks out of his fur, but he'll still *insist* that he's a reincarnated Paladin...

Sounds like one of Sam's human paladins, so, fair enough...


Drakli wrote:


I believe what the poster meant was "it fails to address races that have humanoid HD." And as much as I enjoy reincarnate (which I do,) it is a valid point.

Let's say the PC was a 12th level monk. Gnolls have 2 HD & a +1 level adjustment. Taking into account that reincarnate gives a permanent negative level instead of costing an actual level, 12 + 2 racial HD + 1 level adjustment means.. is he now a 15th level PC? Does this unbalance him relative to his party? For a player to roll a gnoll monk as a PC for this party (which we assume averages 12th level,) they would likely be asked to make a character that fits the effective party level, a gnoll monk 9, who'd count as a 12th level PC. Does the reincarnated PC have to drop levels to fit this, or does he get a pass to break out of the party balance curve, so to speak?

... the rules, they are silent.

I would have given him gnoll's bonuses for free. Being a monk, he's gimped enough already (in all likelyhood).

The Exchange

Set wrote:

This naturally leads me to conclude that my next Gnoll PC will go around telling people that he's really Sir Justin of Malebrionte, who died in single combat with a Vrock during the Third Mendevian Campaign, and was reincarnated by a whimsical gnomish druid ally.

Of course, he'll have an Int of 8 and act like a savage, eating his meat raw, shunning the concept of bathing, growling at people and eating bugs that he picks out of his fur, but he'll still *insist* that he's a reincarnated Paladin...

Except reincarnate only affects PHYSICAL ability scores not mental ones, so he would still be as cultured as before, unless you did a mental score affecting homebrew of reincarnate.

Actually, Gnoll was the second best choice of the 3.5 reincarnate list, with bugbear being the only better one, in terms of raw power. Although, an official comment on whether you get the monster HD and LA would be useful.


Deific Paragon Time Dragon wrote:
Set wrote:

This naturally leads me to conclude that my next Gnoll PC will go around telling people that he's really Sir Justin of Malebrionte, who died in single combat with a Vrock during the Third Mendevian Campaign, and was reincarnated by a whimsical gnomish druid ally.

Of course, he'll have an Int of 8 and act like a savage, eating his meat raw, shunning the concept of bathing, growling at people and eating bugs that he picks out of his fur, but he'll still *insist* that he's a reincarnated Paladin...

Except reincarnate only affects PHYSICAL ability scores not mental ones, so he would still be as cultured as before, unless you did a mental score affecting homebrew of reincarnate.

Actually, Gnoll was the second best choice of the 3.5 reincarnate list, with bugbear being the only better one, in terms of raw power. Although, an official comment on whether you get the monster HD and LA would be useful.

You get the new physical stat bonuses, and ...

SRD wrote:
The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form.

Notice racial HD and/or LA is not included (you might argue these could fall in "the like" catagory, but I doubt it). So I don't think there is much justification for forcing a player to take the racial HD or LA.

Now here is a question, what if you were a bugbear (or other race with racial HD and LA), would you lose them if you changed into a human for example? Again, I would argue that you wouldn't because the reincarnate does not say you lose those, just your physical bonuses. In fact it states:

SRD wrote:
It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. ... The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1. ...

The only way base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skill ranks, and hit points didn't change is if the number of total HD did not change (except for the 1 loss forced by the spell).

Dark Archive

Deific Paragon Time Dragon wrote:
Set wrote:
This naturally leads me to conclude that my next Gnoll PC will go around telling people that he's really Sir Justin of Malebrionte,
Except reincarnate only affects PHYSICAL ability scores not mental ones, so he would still be as cultured as before, unless you did a mental score affecting homebrew of reincarnate.

What I was going for there, but inadequately explained, is that 'Sir Justin' would be a Gnoll. Always a Gnoll, born a Gnoll, from not-so-loving Gnoll parents. He'd be lying his furry butt off, pretending to be a reincarnated Human Paladin.


Drakli wrote:
Quandary wrote:

Another problem with the spell is that address races that have humanoid HD,

such as lizard folk, gnolls, and bugbears.
...What does this mean?

I believe what the poster meant was "it fails to address races that have humanoid HD." And as much as I enjoy reincarnate (which I do,) it is a valid point.

Let's say the PC was a 12th level monk. Gnolls have 2 HD & a +1 level adjustment. Taking into account that reincarnate gives a permanent negative level instead of costing an actual level, 12 + 2 racial HD + 1 level adjustment means.. is he now a 15th level PC? Does this unbalance him relative to his party? For a player to roll a gnoll monk as a PC for this party (which we assume averages 12th level,) they would likely be asked to make a character that fits the effective party level, a gnoll monk 9, who'd count as a 12th level PC. Does the reincarnated PC have to drop levels to fit this, or does he get a pass to break out of the party balance curve, so to speak?

... the rules, they are silent.

That was what I meant. Thank you.


pres man wrote:


SRD wrote:
The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form.

Notice racial HD and/or LA is not included (you might argue these could fall in "the like" catagory, but I doubt it). So I don't think there is much justification for forcing a player to take the racial HD or LA.

Now here is a question, what if you were a bugbear (or other race with racial HD and LA), would you lose them if you changed into a human for example? Again, I would argue that you wouldn't because the reincarnate does not say you lose those, just your physical bonuses. In fact it states:

SRD wrote:
It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. ... The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is...

That may well be the case. I would like the text to be specific on this.

Personally, I would prefer the list of creatures be +0 EL creatures only for the default. I would replace the bugbear with the hobgoblin, add the aasimar and tiefling, and rework the locathah into a 1HD "gillman" style amphibious monster.


I'd like to see a Golarion specific reincarnation list, in addition, I think it should be alignment based...just my thoughts

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Or location-based. It's unlikely you're going to find too many gnolls in Orv.

But I ask again, how does Reincarnation work?

If my character dies and comes back as a human, did that human's body have a spouse and family? Was she alive yesterday?

Paizo Employee Managing Developer

Xaaon of Korvosa wrote:
I'd like to see a Golarion specific reincarnation list, in addition, I think it should be alignment based...just my thoughts

Granted its not official or anything and doesn't necessarily address your alignment desires, but I've got a link to one I did early on in this thread. Let me know what you think.


Chris Mortika wrote:

Or location-based. It's unlikely you're going to find too many gnolls in Orv.

But I ask again, how does Reincarnation work?

If my character dies and comes back as a human, did that human's body have a spouse and family? Was she alive yesterday?

huh?

SRD wrote:
The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand.

It is a brand new body, not somebody else's that you stole.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

SRD wrote:
The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand.
pres man wrote:
It is a brand new body, not somebody else's that you stole.

Hunh. Fair enough. But then, if you were reincarnated as a "tiefling," you wouldn't actually have a fiendish ancestor. And you'd be reincarnated as a clanless "dwarf" (in those campaigns where a dwarf's heritage is important...)

And if you were to return as a badger, that's not because a badger just happened to be the only body that was handy; it's because some divinity was being a jerk....

If you were reincarnated on, say, an elemental plane, I wonder if you'd be an outsider, your body being constructed from the natural elements of the plane.

Since it's a young adult body, does that allow clever mages to get around the natural lifespan rule?

Dark Archive

I'd always kind of wondered where the fully grown person you suddenly 'woke up in' came from as well, actually. Neat to see that 3rd edition actually specifies that it's a whole new person, and not some poor schmuck having his entire life erased as you 'move in.' :)


Chris Mortika wrote:
And if you were to return as a badger, that's not because a badger just happened to be the only body that was handy; it's because some divinity was being a jerk....

Well, to a significant degree, that depends on what edition you're playing. In 1st and 2nd, the druid version gave you a random woodland creature, while the wizard version gave you a random humanoid-form creature. In 3rd, as a druid spell, it gave you a random woodland creature. In 3.5, however, the druid spell specifically retains creature type; a humanoid always comes back as a humanoid, an animal as an animal, etc.

Chris Mortika wrote:
If you were reincarnated on, say, an elemental plane, I wonder if you'd be an outsider, your body being constructed from the natural elements of the plane.

None of the versions ever seem to take environment into consideration, so presumably you come back as either a random woodland creature or random humanoid.


Chris Mortika wrote:
Hunh. Fair enough. But then, if you were reincarnated as a "tiefling," you wouldn't actually have a fiendish ancestor.

Yeah, but if you are reincarnated as a bugbear, you wouldn't actually have a goblinoid ancestor either so that's not really a big concern. Also you'll notice on the 3.5 rules you can't actually become a tiefling if you were a humanoid to start with (without DM fiat/"choice").

Chris Mortika wrote:
And you'd be reincarnated as a clanless "dwarf" (in those campaigns where a dwarf's heritage is important...)

Or worse yet, how about starting off being a dwarf and getting reincarnated as an orc. How would your clan look at that?

Chris Mortika wrote:
And if you were to return as a badger, that's not because a badger just happened to be the only body that was handy; it's because some divinity was being a jerk....

Again, that is only going to happen by DM fiat/"choice" anyway.

Chris Mortika wrote:
If you were reincarnated on, say, an elemental plane, I wonder if you'd be an outsider, your body being constructed from the natural elements of the plane.

Interesting, not sure. I might say you'd at least get the [Extraplanar] subtype possibly.

Chris Mortika wrote:
Since it's a young adult body, does that allow clever mages to get around the natural lifespan rule?

Perhaps, but more likely druids since it is a druid spell. Though of course there is the fact that it doesn't work to bring someone back who died of old age, so you'd have to be killed off before you died old age for that to work. And that little scheme would only work until one of these guys showed up.

Scarab Sages

Chris Mortika wrote:
But I ask again, how does Reincarnation work?

I imagine it like a pod-person, grown in a cocoon, drawing in the nutrients from the ground.


Snorter wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
But I ask again, how does Reincarnation work?
I imagine it like a pod-person, grown in a cocoon, drawing in the nutrients from the ground.

Or like a Summon Monster spell, only your soul is in the Summoned?

I once played a variant, where a druid was a member of "The Order of the Phoenix" (over a decade before the Potter series!), where he came back in the form of a recently slain adversary, and had so many hours to conduct the ceremony with his former body to reclaim it -- he got to be a kobold for awhile.

Another reincarnation war-story -- I used to play a half-elf PC who was a bit of a womanizer, so of course, the DM had him reincarnated as a centaur to complicate things!

Shadow Lodge

pres man wrote:


Chris Mortika wrote:
Since it's a young adult body, does that allow clever mages to get around the natural lifespan rule?
Perhaps, but more likely druids since it is a druid spell. Though of course there is the fact that it doesn't work to bring someone back who died of old age, so you'd have to be killed off before you died old age for that to work. And that little scheme would only work until one of these guys showed up.

I dont remember if it was from an adventure or just my DM's imagination, but there was a pack of near-feral druids that stayed in wild shape who would practice ritualistic cannibalism and devour the old/sick and then reincarnate them.

Shadow Lodge

Kat's Eye wrote:

What's wrong with being a non major race.

CRY HAVOK, AND LET SLIP THE DOGS OF WAR!!!!

I'm so going to remember you said this...

Shadow Lodge

cappadocius wrote:

Are people going to drive him out with scourges because he's a race that explicitly worships Lamashtu.

This could be bad for my current character, Aluka. Originally human, this pseudo-vampire was a worshiper of Lamashtu(even had the unholy symbol as a tattoo on her cheek) was reincarnated recently as a gnoll(so now the symbol is a pattern in her fur). But I agree with the above posts about great role-playing application. If they don't beleive she is telling the truth about her reincarnation there are few who could try to run her out of town and live...., and she now carries Chellen so she is even more intimidating to the common people.


Kat's Eye wrote:

What's wrong with being a non major race. He is stronger than he was. He is quicker. He is never unarmed (nice claws and teeth). He can now take a natural weapon feat.

Also, gnolls are not animalistic savages.

** spoiler omitted **
Let the PC have fun with his new body. Let him revel in his new fierceness.
CRY HAVOK, AND LET SLIP THE DOGS OF WAR!!!!

I'm pretty sure that gnolls in Golarion are animalistic savages. Or at least, they are as far as the "civilized" races are. They raid, they enslave, they eat people, they're not house trained. This player is looking at some strong difficulties with this character. He walks up to a gate and the gate guards can see what he is, he's looking at the real possibility of being attacked.

However, I agree that there are some good rp possibilities here.


Good fun! We have an ogrekin in our party, so the "shunned humanoid" element is something that they have dealt with from Level 1. He is also a monk, actually.

Although his kind demeanor has gotten him far in soothing over racial tensions, most helpful has been the rest of the party vouching for him. I think that a lone gnoll causes much more concern than a gnoll accompanied by a couple of humans, an elf, and a halfling, all of whom are visibly outfitted as travelers/adventurers.

Even if the campaign were to steer back into civilized lands, I think the rest of the party would be willing to vouch for the gnoll, which would go a long way to preventing a pitchfork-and-torches response.

1 to 50 of 76 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Lost Omens Campaign Setting / General Discussion / Golarion and Reincarnation (Or, "I'm a nice gnoll- honest!") All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.