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I think Pathfinder RPG could benefit greatly from a technique used in many Living Games - Lifestyle cost
(wouldn't be a bad idea for Pathfinder Society either).
The concept is that each character pays a nominal fee per game session to cover daily expenses, such as drinks, meals and accommodation. The amount you pay depends on what standard of lifestyle you wish to live. For example:
- 6 GP - Low - share a common room with others
- 12 GP - Standard - private rooms with locks
- 20 GP - High - noble accommodation
- 0 GP - None - sleeping outdoors or on the streets
Low and None run the risk of having items stolen from the character by other patrons or vagabonds during the night.
The idea is to reduce the amount of bookkeeping for mundane requirements such as drinks, meals, accommodation, and should extend to trail rations - things that tend to inturrupt or slow down game play - and reduce the need to account for copper and silver pieces. This method assumes that you're always carrying enough food to survive by (unless you choose 0 GP None, in which case you will be required to hunt for your food).
Players may always choose to spend in addition to their lifestyle cost, eg buying a contact a drink or a meal in an effort to gain his favour, etc.
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The concept is that each character pays a nominal fee per game session to cover daily expenses, such as drinks, meals and accommodation. The amount you pay depends on what standard of lifestyle you wish to live.
Not a bad idea. Most games I've ever been a part of never take these costs into account, even going so far as to not track expenses in taverns, inns, gather information, etc. With an easy to track system like this, it would be easy to say "As we start this next leg of our adventure, your living expense cost is X"
Ryn, who's Dwarf spends 100gp per adventure on cigars and brandy
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I think Pathfinder RPG could benefit greatly from a technique used in many Living Games - Lifestyle cost.
Heh, I read the title and thought, 'Lifestyle cost? I wonder how many points my character gets for being gay?'
Interesting notion. Of course, all the Bards will be trying to pull the 'gigolo' concept and claiming that they don't have to pay a lifestyle cost because of all their willing sugar mamma's. :)
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I think Pathfinder RPG could benefit greatly from a technique used in many Living Games - Lifestyle cost.Heh, I read the title and thought, 'Lifestyle cost? I wonder how many points my character gets for being gay?'
Interesting notion. Of course, all the Bards will be trying to pull the 'gigolo' concept and claiming that they don't have to pay a lifestyle cost because of all their willing sugar mamma's. :)
You could turn that into a roleplaying application for the bard....see if he can actually MAKE a good sugar momma...or if he ends up with the "town bicycle".
Interesting idea....
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I think Pathfinder RPG could benefit greatly from a technique used in many Living Games - Lifestyle cost.Heh, I read the title and thought, 'Lifestyle cost? I wonder how many points my character gets for being gay?'
Interesting notion. Of course, all the Bards will be trying to pull the 'gigolo' concept and claiming that they don't have to pay a lifestyle cost because of all their willing sugar mamma's. :)
You could turn that into a roleplaying application for the bard....see if he can actually MAKE a good sugar momma...or if he ends up with the "town bicycle".
Interesting idea....
Or a hideous hag that has a magical disguise on her (Greenhag, likely). Or an evil cultist/villain who intends to pump information from the bard (perhaps about his friends -- their abilities, stregths, weaknesses, magic items, etc.) and eventually tries to kill or sacrifice the bard. ;)
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The idea is to reduce the amount of bookkeeping for mundane requirements such as drinks, meals, accommodation, and should extend to trail rations
A good idea to have in there as an option. D20 Modern and Spycraft have good systems for this.
things that tend to inturrupt or slow down game play
Most of the game play with my players actually occurs in inns and taverns, chatting in character and making plans and so on, so it doesn't slow things down. I normally have more trouble to get some roleplaying done in combat, rather than just dice rolling and sums.
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One could bring Wisdom in and make the stat more useful. Set the gp cost for each lifestyle higher - assume the players are wasting money on drinking and carousing during their off time. A successful Will save means they controlled themselves and only pay half.
He he - different towns or even establishments could have different DCs. Vegas DC 30, Fresno DC 10.
I am using a plain and simple average cost of life for characters :
10gp per level per month.
Aristocrats, nobles, swashbucklers and high class characters have to pay 2 or 5 times that to reflect their fancy living and justify their status.
The problem with costs like this is that, in my experience, most players will just find ways to circumvent it. A simple DC 10 Survival check will allow a PC to forage for food, and with a decent rotation, there's much lower odds of being robbed.
Furthermore, the characters are effectively being penalized for living. Character wealth is a measure of character power - decreasing that wealth in this regard amounts to decreasing their ability to deal with appropriate CR threats, and can result in little more than additional gold being provided to compensate.
It's a good idea in theory, and if the d20 system wasn't so dependent on PCs having a certain amount of gold spent on gear, it'd be potentially viable, but I don't think it's a good idea as it stands.
Agreed.
For the characters who have a "job" between their adventures and dungeon raids, such as artisans, merchants, guards or guild members, i usually consider that the salary covers their living costs, including home, food, clothes and equipement, in a rank reflecting their social status and the benefits which come along.
Easy and simple, and it doesn't need any mechanic.
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The problem with costs like this is that, in my experience, most players will just find ways to circumvent it. A simple DC 10 Survival check will allow a PC to forage for food, and with a decent rotation, there's much lower odds of being robbed.
Furthermore, the characters are effectively being penalized for living. Character wealth is a measure of character power - decreasing that wealth in this regard amounts to decreasing their ability to deal with appropriate CR threats, and can result in little more than additional gold being provided to compensate.
It's a good idea in theory, and if the d20 system wasn't so dependent on PCs having a certain amount of gold spent on gear, it'd be potentially viable, but I don't think it's a good idea as it stands.
So I am curious, do you allow your PCs to carouse at taverns and sleep at inns for free? And you don't make them pay for meals or anything they might pay that is mundane?
While I agree gold is used as a measure of power in the game, I also think there is a reason for costs listed for inns and taverns.
This isn't to copper and silver the PCs to death at all. In fact the costs are downright negligible at times. From the PRPG average costs for lifestyle would work to:
Good Lifestyle 2.5G/day or 75G/month
Common Lifestyle 0.8G/day or 24G/month
Poor Lifestyle 0.3G/day or 9G/month
I often vary the numbers to represent just how "Good" an Inn is that they are staying at.
If the PCs were not expected to pay for "living" like the rest of us, it would make more sense to not award Gold at all but use an abstract method of tracking wealth, similar to d20 Modern. Since the game does dish out cash literally to the copper piece, the GM should feel free to charge them for their expenses.
In our last game, I was the accountant. I grabbed a free accounting program I ran on my laptop and tracked cash and items in it. At any given moment I could tell anyone their net worth and where they spent their cash. Amazing how much gets siphoned off at bars and carousing!
From the PRPG average costs for lifestyle would work to:
Good Lifestyle 2.5G/day or 75G/month
Common Lifestyle 0.8G/day or 24G/month
Poor Lifestyle 0.3G/day or 9G/month
Clearly this only has an effect in campaign style games- if you run episodic style or ones where the value of treasure matters for character power these can easily be ignored. Maybe they can be placed as "Optional Campaign Rules"
I like the idea of lifestyle costs of some sort.
I would also like PC's to get a job in between adventures- largely because IMO it ties them to the world more fully and gives character development stuff.
Under the craft or profession rules the average 1st level commoner with no stat bonus, 1 rank in a craft or profession (so skill of 4), taking 10 on their check earns 7gp a week. This should set a reasonable base level for a community that is 'not on hard times'. Mind you someone with a skill of say 16 in craft only gets 13gp a week so it is pretty hard to increase your income this way.
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From the PRPG average costs for lifestyle would work to:
Good Lifestyle 2.5G/day or 75G/month
Common Lifestyle 0.8G/day or 24G/month
Poor Lifestyle 0.3G/day or 9G/monthClearly this only has an effect in campaign style games- if you run episodic style or ones where the value of treasure matters for character power these can easily be ignored. Maybe they can be placed as "Optional Campaign Rules"
I like the idea of lifestyle costs of some sort.
I would also like PC's to get a job in between adventures- largely because IMO it ties them to the world more fully and gives character development stuff.
Under the craft or profession rules the average 1st level commoner with no stat bonus, 1 rank in a craft or profession (so skill of 4), taking 10 on their check earns 7gp a week. This should set a reasonable base level for a community that is 'not on hard times'. Mind you someone with a skill of say 16 in craft only gets 13gp a week so it is pretty hard to increase your income this way.
I got those figures just from adding lodging and meals together. Anyone can use them or get them. I would like to see a section in the GM section about economics, but that ain't gonna happen.
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Here's what our game uses ...
VARIANT: UPKEEP
Instead of worrying about meal prices, lodging, replacing torn clothing, and other miscellaneous costs, as well as to represent the kinds of costs that turn up in daily life that aren’t reflected in the PHB, you can require each player to pay a monthly upkeep cost based on the lifestyle of the character.
The upkeep can be assumed to take into consideration every expense except the cost of specific adventuring equipment – even taxes. Ultimately, each player should choose the level of upkeep she’s willing to pay.
· Destitute (1 gp/mo): The homeless, mentally ill, and vagrant, street urchins and refugees. Destitute characters have a 10% per month of contracting filth fever, and suffer a -2 penalty to all Charisma checks.
· Poor (10 gp/mo): These commoners, warriors, adepts and experts live comfortably, but without luxury. Meals are simple, and they may occasionally treat themselves to a bottle of wine or some ale. Poor characters suffer a –1 penalty to all Charisma checks.
· Common (20 gp/mo): Regularly employed folk with some skills, earning at least 1gp per day. These are the lower class in urban areas and reasonably well off farmers or hunters in rural areas.
· Good (50 gp/mo): People who live reasonably well, living in a rented house, or on property handed down from their parents (minimum social class for anyone who has purchased property). They have quality food at every meal, and own a few changes of clothing. These people, which would include most clerics, paladins or wizards, may drink wine, and have hobbies, books, or minor affordable vices.
· Extravagant (200 gp/mo): If these folk see something they want, they buy it. They hold dinner parties and eat at the finest inns, and wear the most recent fashions and expensive jewelry at all times. People who live extravagantly almost certainly employ a personal servant (one henchman NPC Expert 1) and count as having Great Renown for the Leadership feat.
· Aristocratic (500 gp/mo): Known for their status and wealth, and ownership of property (of at least 120,000 gp). People who live among the aristocracy employ a staff of people (5 henchmen NPCs of any class, 1st level), and have great renown.
So I am curious, do you allow your PCs to carouse at taverns and sleep at inns for free? And you don't make them pay for meals or anything they might pay that is mundane?
While I agree gold is used as a measure of power in the game, I also think there is a reason for costs listed for inns and taverns.
This isn't to copper and silver the PCs to death at all. In fact the costs are downright negligible at times. From the PRPG average costs for lifestyle would work to:
Good Lifestyle 2.5G/day or 75G/month
Common Lifestyle 0.8G/day or 24G/month
Poor Lifestyle 0.3G/day or 9G/monthI often vary the numbers to represent just how "Good" an Inn is that they are staying at.
If the PCs were not expected to pay for "living" like the rest of us, it would make more sense to not award Gold at all but use an abstract method of tracking wealth, similar to d20 Modern. Since the game does dish out cash literally to the copper piece, the GM should feel free to charge them for their expenses.
In our last game, I was the accountant. I grabbed a free accounting program I ran on my laptop and tracked cash and items in it. At any given moment I could tell anyone their net worth and where they spent their cash. Amazing how...
Actually, in two out of three (or possibly all three) campaigns I've run since 3.5 came out, I haven't charged upkeep for the PCs (food, lodging, etc).
My first game, the PCs were students at a military academy, and lodging was provided. If they wanted to spend some gold carousing, I think it occasionally came up, but money was actually sometimes tight in that game, though I tried my best to make sure they were as equipped as possible.
The second game, I don't recall charging the PCs for lodging and room/board, though the game didn't last long due to flaky players. They may have wound up paying something eventually, or even during the game. It died due to lack of player involvement.
The most recent game, I actually did do as you suggested, and it was an interesting experiment. When characters leveled, I basically gave them "gold" to spend on treasure that they found in the adventure - they could buy whatever they could afford. This was justified by having them find, say, an old treasure trove that just happened to have items perfectly suitable to them. It was nice, because no matter what items I gave an NPC, I didn't have to worry about the PCs winding up with wealth beyond their level (this is particularly nice since I like NPCs with class levels over monsters). The downside to it was that I wasn't able to just seed fun items into a hoard and let the players decide what to do with it, but it worked out well enough in many ways.
I did use upkeep in my old 2E days, and the players often complained that it made no sense that their cost of living somehow increased as they gained in level - why should they suddenly eat more just because they had gone up a level. It was an artificial construct that I didn't particularly like for a game. If a PC wants to buy gear, I charge them - they don't just get free alchemists' fire, for example, but I don't worry overmuch about whether or not they can afford to sleep at an inn, because most PCs will find a way around it with minimal effort and it is, as you said, a negligible cost beyond low levels anyway.
I like lifestyle costs, because they not only add flavor but they encourage roleplaying. In a Forgotten Realms campaign set in Waterdeep, it was a factor for the PCs (the campaign setting provided a cost chart much like the OP suggestion and explained what came with it). Immediately my players combed through the city looking for inns that matched their characters, justified why their characters were staying there, and settled in. Instant connections to the city and the world. NPC regulars at the inns and rowhouses made great informants.
Furthermore, the expense they incurred gave them a reason to use their Craft and Perform skills to make money. The party bard used Perform to keep up his lifestyle, so adventurin' money could be spent on better gear, clothes, and women. The royal Sorceress used her name and diplomacy skills to secure lodgings from other nobles. The woodcarver made trinkets to sell. Etc. Etc.
It also spared us calculating rent by the Per Day charts in the PHB.
A chart like this would be a welcome addition. It may be more appropriate in the campaign setting, though, as different regions have different living costs.