Actually Wearing Armor is a Gimp


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Yep, that is the bar bones fact. Armor isn't worth the feat you got to get it. Armor balances out at +10 AC at best, however this is not for a coast. The weight is a problem, there is a max Dex, there is an armor check penalty, and the biggest problem, the reduced speed.

Heavy armor seems ludicrous in the higher levels, or even the low levels, as most melee types will have a Dex bonus of +1, but this makes spells and items that increase Dex almost useless with the exception of reflex saves and skills.

So what if mithral increases by +2, if they have a dex of 12, a simple cat's grace spell would make full plat max out, but for a melee type to only have a Dex of 12 is unlikely in my games I have been in. Solution, well I stated in another thread about tieing this straight to encomberance, however if that doesn't work then I sugest raising max dex by 1. Also character in a game where an 18 is likely, and they focus in on the stat a character is usually will find that even padded will be outgrown.

18(base) +2 (racial) +6 (Item) +5 leveling = 31 which grants a +10 bonus, which means bracers time.

Never mind that they could get a +5 book, or 5 wishes and up it to 36 a +13 bonus! and would be silly to not have bracers of armor.


Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Yep, that is the bar bones fact. Armor isn't worth the feat you got to get it.

Imho aiming for bracers of armor is just another valid high level strategy for a char without fighter armor training. A very costly one at that.

Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:


The weight is a problem, there is a max Dex, there is an armor check penalty, and the biggest problem, the reduced speed.

Mostly overrated if you ask me and there are ways around that, especially at higher levels. Think Mithral Full Plate of Speed, Boots of Striding and Springing, Wand/Staff/Potion of Expedious Retreat, the Wiz/Soc casting Haste, ...

Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:


Also character in a game where an 18 is likely, and they focus in on the stat a character is usually will find that even padded will be outgrown.

In all honesty I don't care much for examples where a 18 is likely. If the GM lets the players roll 1d8+10 for stats that is his problem, I would advise to stay to stat generation descriped in the rules. So with a 25 point buy, which is the best option available, you have to shell out 17 points just to get a stat to 18, that is a pretty steep price and will gimp your other stats.

Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:


18(base) +2 (racial) +6 (Item) +5 leveling = 31 which grants a +10 bonus, which means bracers time.

To gain +3 AC compared to a Mithral Breastplate +5 or +2 AC compared to a Mithral Full Plate +5? Imho hardly worth it if you consider the cost. Add fighter armor training and it becomes really unattractive.

Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:


a simple cat's grace spell would make full plat max out

I for myself never did factor in such buffs and the new Belts of X are way to sweet anyway. Any non strength focused char should shell out 40K for an Belt of Physical Might(Con/Dex) at some point. The benefits are just too good.

Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:


Never mind that they could get a +5 book, or 5 wishes and up it to 36 a +13 bonus! and would be silly to not have bracers of armor.

You're talking 137500 gp here for a +2(base dex 17) or +3(base dex 18) bonus.

But honestly, this discussion should wait till the Magic Item Playtest.


Tholas wrote:
But honestly this discussion should wait till the Magic Item Playtest.

Not really. The main point is that wearing armor is less usefull than not wearing armor. Magic was only brought in to help illustrate this point.

And as to that point, I don't agree.

Sure, in a "money is no object" game, Bracers of Armor could be the way to go. With the Beta's adjustment to Armor Enhancements to Bracers, this could be more or less true. (If you never allowed it, it would make it more true. If you did allow it, the Beta nerfs that a little.)

In the end, some enhancements can only be put on armor.

But there is a nice cost to armor modified by dexterity balance going on.

I have only found characters with greater than 20 Dex ever shun armor. Proficiency isn't even really needed. If you wear armor withou a check penalty, you don't need proficiency - such as masterwork shields and masterwork studded leather.


I do have a couple of questions for you guys, and I'm sorry for a minor threadjack, but these don't really seem like the kinds of questions to ask eslewhere.

1. Why do is 25 point buy considered "the best"? In all honesty, the way the system is now with the higher scores having higher costs thats entirely unreasonable. I've never had my players use anything less than 32 point buy, and those were the LOW games lol. Typically its 4d6 drop the lowest (with 18's NOT uncommon, and rarely anything under 10. And yes, I do watch) Or its 20 point buy on a 1-1 ratio (starting from 8 as normal.)

2. What's the minor nerf to bracers of armor that disenchanter mentioned? I haven't noticed it in the beta. (so either I missed it, or its something thats been confirmed on the forum that I didn't see.)

And for the record, I agree armor is a bit weak as it is for the common player. My oppinion, is the fighter's class armor boost is too high, but its the only effect in the game that makes heavy armor attractive to most characters (Though I have seen several make great use of heavy armor, and not all were dwarves.)


Disenchanter wrote:

In the end, some enhancements can only be put on armor.

But nothing in the rules prevents a char from wearing eg. Bracers of Armor +8 and a Chain Shirt +1, heavy fortification improved resistances (Fire,Cold, Acid, Electricity).

Spoiler:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

1. Why do is 25 point buy considered "the best"? In all honesty, the way the system is now with the higher scores having higher costs thats entirely unreasonable. I've never had my players use anything less than 32 point buy, and those were the LOW games lol. Typically its 4d6 drop the lowest (with 18's NOT uncommon, and rarely anything under 10. And yes, I do watch) Or its 20 point buy on a 1-1 ratio (starting from 8 as normal.)

As I said: Because it's in the core rules. Additionally it is the most consistent. I'd rolled bad chars(compared to the party average) with 4d6 drop lowest in the past. Edit: I forgot the Heroic Option 2d6+6

Even with 4d6 drop lowest rolling a 18 has only a 1.6% chance. That means you have an 11% chance rolling an 18 at char creation. See this page for the gory details.


Tholas wrote:
Disenchanter wrote:

In the end, some enhancements can only be put on armor.

But nothing in the rules prevents a char from wearing eg. Bracers of Armor +8 and a Chain Shirt +1, heavy fortification improved resistances (Fire,Cold, Acid, Electricity).

No there isn't. But this point has little to do with the topic that there is little to no reason to wear armor. At best, you are helping me prove the point that there is, but doing so in a confrontational manner.

kyrt-ryder:

Spoiler:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
2. What's the minor nerf to bracers of armor that disenchanter mentioned? I haven't noticed it in the beta. (so either I missed it, or its something thats been confirmed on the forum that I didn't see.)

What I meant was, some people never allowed Light Fortification, let's say, to be placed on Bracers of Armor. Then the question was asked, and an "semi official" rules expert (I want to say Skip Williams, but could be way off) said that while they weren't intended to be enhanced this way, there wasn't any reason why they couldn't be.

Beta rules take it a step further and say that the maximum "bonus" on Bracers of Armor can be +8, so if you add Light Fortification, the highest armor bonus can only be +7. On top of this, you can't add any enhancement that costs GP only - like the resistance properties. (Any thing with a modifier cost, like +2, is fine. But if the cost is a flat +2000gps it can't be added to Bracers of Armor.)


Disenchanter wrote:


At best, you are helping me prove the point that there is, but doing so in a confrontational manner.

That wasn't my intention, I am sorry if it sounded that way.


Yeah, there is no good reason to wear armor. At least, when you have a Dexterity score of 30. If not, it actually improves your AC and for many characters thats VERY useful.

kyrt-ryder wrote:
1. Why do is 25 point buy considered "the best"? In all honesty, the way the system is now with the higher scores having higher costs thats entirely unreasonable.

It isn't. It's just a system that many people like, because they like to play games with that power level.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I use Pathfinder's 20 point array myself, though I could also use the 15 point array w/o losing sleep. Especially with Pathfinder skill system. (8 wis + max ranks in perception not as painful)

Anyway, don't forget that armor is useful for the bad guys w/o the elite array, or a 32 point build, or 1d4+14 or what ever you give the PCs. just giving the bad guys a undefined AC bonus is a method of 4th edition. That is madness...

This! Is! PATHFINDER! *chestkick*

Dark Archive

Neithan wrote:

Yeah, there is no good reason to wear armor. At least, when you have a Dexterity score of 30. If not, it actually improves your AC and for many characters thats VERY useful.

kyrt-ryder wrote:
1. Why do is 25 point buy considered "the best"? In all honesty, the way the system is now with the higher scores having higher costs thats entirely unreasonable.
It isn't. It's just a system that many people like, because they like to play games with that power level.

And it also makes all PCs more equal (stat-wise). Using the 4D6 system provides PCs with mixed stats, and luck plays a storng role. I have played in many campaigns in which at least some of the PCs had 14 or 15 as their best stat, and were outshined by more heroic PCs with half their stats over 16 (I even remember a couple of PCs with 14 as their *lowest* stat).


Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
So what if mithral increases by +2, if they have a dex of 12, a simple cat's grace spell would make full plat max out, but for a melee type to only have a Dex of 12 is unlikely in my games I have been in.

Emphasis mine. I've noticed that some people are really, really into getting a high AC and some people are not; it varies from person to person and from campaign to campaign. Personally, I would much rather focus all of my resources on killing my enemies rather than not getting hit. So mithral full plate is more than enough for my melee characters in most cases.


Beyond that a fighter in mithril full plate at 16th level can have and use a Dex score up to 24... that's nothing to sneaze at. A +12 Armor bonus before magical enchancement and + 7 Dex bonus to AC is nice. Add in a nice healthy tower shield and you got a possible non magic AC of 33 at 15th level for a fighter, add in 8 points from the armor and shield being + 4 each and you've hit 41, flavor with Haste, Shield of Faith, Barkskin (or various magical items) and you can easily pace in at 52ish becuase of the help of the armor. Without that armor you are looking at 40ish, even bracers of armor will only bring it back up to 48ish.

Lets remember that things like Robes of the Archmage and Bracers of Armor don't stack either (same bonus type), and Mage armor doesn't stack there also.

Beyond that however the question, even with a 25 point buy is how many 18's can you have and where are you going to put them? IF you dump all three mental stats down to 7 you still will only have 37 points which will buy 2 18's and an 11... or you could get two 16's and an 18... but look at what you are paying for that 7 Int 7 Wis 7 Cha... do not get hit by a Touch of Idiocy spell!


Abraham spalding wrote:
... Add in a nice healthy tower shield and you got a possible non magic AC of 33 at 15th level for a fighter ...

You forgot that tower shields have a max dex modifier which can't be raised by the fighters armor training and can't be circumvented by the animated enhancement. Even with a mithril tower shield a char would be capped at +4 dex bonus. So a fighter would be way better off with a (animated) heavy shield.


Very good point Tholas, I had been looking in my second ed PHB for another thread and forgot to switch back thank you for catching that.

Dark Archive

hogarth wrote:
I've noticed that some people are really, really into getting a high AC and some people are not; it varies from person to person and from campaign to campaign. Personally, I would much rather focus all of my resources on killing my enemies rather than not getting hit. So mithral full plate is more than enough for my melee characters in most cases.

Honestly it has been my experience that AC is largely irrelevant after level 12. Who cares if you have an AC of 35? Most melee brutes within that CR range have 30+ attack values. High HP's and magic items that grant damage reduction or a miss chance take over big time. Has anyone else noticed this?


Actually I've noticed it's not so hard to keep your AC in a range where getting hit is only a 30% percent chance. I think expecting any more from armor is what is insane. This isn't a game of "invincibility" like some Final Fantasy or something, there should be a realistic expectation that your character will be hit sometimes, and when it happens it'll probably hurt.

If you open up non-OGL stuff to me I can easily take a dwarf well beyond a 50 Touch AC and have damage reduction in the range of 30/- some of what I would use is cheap and cheesy but it is possible, and all legit.


The touch AC I could see, but the DR? Care to enlighten me on that? (not planning to abuse it, just curious, I haven't seen anything that would indicate that much DR availiable) if you want my email, its lukkassu@aim.com

and to contribute to this thread... wait, I already did. Anyways, one possiblity, might be to move chain shirt up to medium armor, make light armor's have unlimited dex to AC, and increase the limits on the medium and heavy armors. (just throwing out ideas, I'll let you guys see if you can make something useful out of them)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

AlKir wrote:
hogarth wrote:
I've noticed that some people are really, really into getting a high AC and some people are not; it varies from person to person and from campaign to campaign. Personally, I would much rather focus all of my resources on killing my enemies rather than not getting hit. So mithral full plate is more than enough for my melee characters in most cases.
Honestly it has been my experience that AC is largely irrelevant after level 12. Who cares if you have an AC of 35? Most melee brutes within that CR range have 30+ attack values. High HP's and magic items that grant damage reduction or a miss chance take over big time. Has anyone else noticed this?

I'll agree In one game our dwarf took his damantine plate just because DR 3/- adds up over time. Even my light armor skirmishers prefer adamantine chain shirt over mithral. 8 melee hits = 1 less CLW spell from the wand.

I like option B because barbarians running around in full plate offends me more than dual wielding bastard swords.

Scarab Sages

"no good reason to wear armor?"

Magic dead areas...let's see how well your naked fighter fights there huh?

Yes, bracers of armor are good...but they're not the be all and end all of armor.


WARNING THREADJACK

I have a minor but topical threadjack while I consider the more pertinant points raised in the thread.

It doesn't seem to matter much what ability point allocation level you allow players to choose from, somebody is always going to mini/max and gimp their character.

From practical play experience, if you give them 32 points, they're still like to gimp one attribute. If you give them 25 or 15 points, they're still going to mini/max gimp something. The only difference is the degree to which they'll do it, and how extreme the final character looks.

Now this is a generalization. Not all players do it. Its just a general trend that I've noticed- you'll almost always get one or two. Regardless of class or armor preference. They'll have a background justification to support it, and that's fine too. I don't mean to start a debate on the validity of role-playing very stupid, unwise, or uncharismatic characters.

My point is attribute allocation is it's own problem (without getting into solution to that). Armor choice has nothing to do with it.
******************

ON TOPIC

I absolutely agree with Disenchanter's earlier remark.

Disenchanter wrote:
But there is a nice cost to armor modified by dexterity balance going on.

I love seeing the Max Dex Bonus on the heavier armors. That is some good balancing right there.


If I start seeing everyone running around with just magic bracers and such for AC I'm going to start preparing some dispel magics and greater dispel magics. Beating the pathetic caster levels of magic items is easy and fun too!

Grand Lodge

OK assuming a point buy of 25, you can get a decent array of 16, 15, 14, 12, 11, 10. With racial boosts, you can get an 18 and a 17, 14, 12, 11, 8. (This way we get TWO attribute boosts)

So for our Fighter he is going to put STR 18, DEX 17, CON 14, for the sake of working with Dex for AC. (I know no race in PRPG gives +2 to both STR and DEX, but let's just say...)

This gives us a +3 Dex modifier for AC.

This means our fighter is going to want Breastplate, a Medium armor. This gives AC +5, +3 Dex, -4 Armor Check Penalty, and -10 movement. Total AC 8

Different Fighter uses build STR 18, DEX 14, CON 17. (I know no race in PRPG gives +2 to both STR and DEX, but let's just say...just to munchkin the numbers)

He chooses Full Plate, a heavy armor. This gives AC +8, +1 Dex, -6 Armor Check Penalty, -10 movement. Total AC is 9, and he gets more HP.

Slight edge goes to the fighter in Full Plate. So darn close I don't see why there is a problem. Two different builds for two different concepts and they come out about the same mechanically.

Now, they obviously need to wear armor... to go without armor the first guy looses 5 AC gains some skill points, but a fighter is not concerned with skills, and gains 10 feet of movement. That 5 points of AC is an increase of 25% more likely to be hit.

There is a claim that Bracers of Armor are better than Armor. For 64,000G I can buy Bracers +8 Armor. Almost as good as the guy in Full Plate, but not quite. Or I can enchant my Armor to +5 for only 25,000G and have a total AC of 14. The enchanted +5 Plate Armor is 39,000G cheaper and has an AC 6 better than the Bracer. Obviously the Armor is MUCH better than the Bracer. In addition I can use that 39,000G to buy Fortification and some other enchants to the armor making the armor even better than the Bracer.

So, to make the Bracers better than Armor the Character needs to have a Dex of about 22 or higher, at the minimum. Which means you need to be level 22 to have boosted your Dex up that high. Course, you can boost your Dex up with Magic. Cat's Grace gets you +4 towards that 22 which helps a lot. Course I could take Bear's Endurance on my HP instead...

And this assumes the caster has it ready to cast and you have time to cast it.

So except for some rare builds I just do not see how Armor is not useful.

When you respond with examples, please use the same array I did so we can keep it to common terms. Changing the attribute array does nothing for the argument.


Krome wrote:
So except for some rare builds I just do not see how Armor is not useful.

Well done Krome!

I agreed with the position, but you made the point with math. Something I can't do while posting at work. I appreciate the effort you just put it.

Scarab Sages

Krome wrote:

OK assuming a point buy of 25, you can get a decent array of 16, 15, 14, 12, 11, 10. With racial boosts, you can get an 18 and a 17, 14, 12, 11, 8. (This way we get TWO attribute boosts)

So for our Fighter he is going to put STR 18, DEX 17, CON 14, for the sake of working with Dex for AC. (I know no race in PRPG gives +2 to both STR and DEX, but let's just say...)

This gives us a +3 Dex modifier for AC.

This means our fighter is going to want Breastplate, a Medium armor. This gives AC +5, +3 Dex, -4 Armor Check Penalty, and -10 movement. Total AC 8

Different Fighter uses build STR 18, DEX 14, CON 17. (I know no race in PRPG gives +2 to both STR and DEX, but let's just say...just to munchkin the numbers)

He chooses Full Plate, a heavy armor. This gives AC +8, +1 Dex, -6 Armor Check Penalty, -10 movement. Total AC is 9, and he gets more HP.

Slight edge goes to the fighter in Full Plate. So darn close I don't see why there is a problem. Two different builds for two different concepts and they come out about the same mechanically.

Now, they obviously need to wear armor... to go without armor the first guy looses 5 AC gains some skill points, but a fighter is not concerned with skills, and gains 10 feet of movement. That 5 points of AC is an increase of 25% more likely to be hit.

There is a claim that Bracers of Armor are better than Armor. For 64,000G I can buy Bracers +8 Armor. Almost as good as the guy in Full Plate, but not quite. Or I can enchant my Armor to +5 for only 25,000G and have a total AC of 14. The enchanted +5 Plate Armor is 39,000G cheaper and has an AC 6 better than the Bracer. Obviously the Armor is MUCH better than the Bracer. In addition I can use that 39,000G to buy Fortification and some other enchants to the armor making the armor even better than the Bracer.

So, to make the Bracers better than Armor the Character needs to have a Dex of about 22 or higher, at the minimum. Which means you need to be level 22 to have boosted your Dex up that high. ...

Consider the Flat footed Armor classes as well. Flat-Footed 15 vs. Flat footed 18. Significant difference especially for a sneak attack. (until the point you can afford heavy fortification of course.)

Grand Lodge

Watcher wrote:
Krome wrote:
So except for some rare builds I just do not see how Armor is not useful.

Well done Krome!

I agreed with the position, but you made the point with math. Something I can't do while posting at work. I appreciate the effort you just put it.

Course I do not feel my math is perfect by any means, but is illustrative at least. Hopefully someone else who is better at number crunching can do a better job. :)

But thanks.


Krome wrote:


Course I do not feel my math is perfect by any means, but is illustrative at least. Hopefully someone else who is better at number crunching can do a better job. :)

But thanks.

Your math is fine and you've chosen a good low level example. Sometimes people forget that characters are rarely created at level 15+.

For the number crunching let me propagate my Armor class - analysis and optimization Wiki Page one more time. The last sortable table has all you need to compare a chars AC with a given dex bonus.


Tholas wrote:

For the number crunching let me propagate my Armor class - analysis and optimization Wiki Page one more time. The last sortable table has all you need to compare a chars AC with a given dex bonus.

Missed that. (I fade in and out of the playtest boards, since my only bugaboo is the CMBs, which are not up for review yet)

That's pretty cool.


Alter Self can grant a +6 AC with no dex limit. :)

Casters often outperform in the AC department, which is a little discouraging for the fighter, whose equipment spending all seems to go into...well, equipment spending.

The fighter AC fix is great. I could wish it applied to other classes as well, but then it wouldn't be fighter-only. Armor needs a bit of a boost: it does not need one that's amazingly huge, but it does need one.

As for opening up the Dex feature on more armors: it makes Dex even more of a king stat than it already is. If Dex already weren't so good...

But there you have it. I just have something against handing it yet one more cookie, when it already has the cake.


SquirrelyOgre wrote:
Alter Self can grant a +6 AC with no dex limit. :)

Not in Pathfinder, it can't.


hogarth wrote:
SquirrelyOgre wrote:
Alter Self can grant a +6 AC with no dex limit. :)
Not in Pathfinder, it can't.

Let's thank the gods large and small on that one. ;)

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

AlKir wrote:
hogarth wrote:
I've noticed that some people are really, really into getting a high AC and some people are not; it varies from person to person and from campaign to campaign. Personally, I would much rather focus all of my resources on killing my enemies rather than not getting hit. So mithral full plate is more than enough for my melee characters in most cases.
Honestly it has been my experience that AC is largely irrelevant after level 12. Who cares if you have an AC of 35? Most melee brutes within that CR range have 30+ attack values. High HP's and magic items that grant damage reduction or a miss chance take over big time. Has anyone else noticed this?

Yes, but having an AC in the high 40s is a big deal at high levels. My dwarven defender was at that point and rarely got hit. When he did get hit, the enemy had to stop power attacking to hit him reliably, and that made a huge difference.

As to the main question, wearing armor is a great way to get a good AC for most characters. The super high Dex characters might not want that route, but that leaves the other 80% of characters wearing armor. The other problem is builds that rely on multiple spells for high AC are vulnerable to dispel magic, not to mention convincing the party spellcasters to burn those spell slots on your AC instead of something they might prefer.

Grand Lodge

SquirrelyOgre wrote:

Alter Self can grant a +6 AC with no dex limit. :)

Casters often outperform in the AC department, which is a little discouraging for the fighter, whose equipment spending all seems to go into...well, equipment spending.

The fighter AC fix is great. I could wish it applied to other classes as well, but then it wouldn't be fighter-only. Armor needs a bit of a boost: it does not need one that's amazingly huge, but it does need one.

As for opening up the Dex feature on more armors: it makes Dex even more of a king stat than it already is. If Dex already weren't so good...

But there you have it. I just have something against handing it yet one more cookie, when it already has the cake.

you know it is true, caters CAN get amazingly high ACs.

My fighter solved that problem in one session easily. Wizard kept buffing himself up. Fighter said "stop that and kill something." Wizard kept buffing up. Next fight my fighter took position behind the Wizard. "Go get him tank," I said and refused to engage. Course the Wizard almost died since he started the fight with crap AC, and tried to buff himself and kept getting hit. Afterwards he learned better.

besides what point is it to open up Dex more on Armor? Your average fighter does NOT have a Dex of 30. Those points go into Str and Con. Dex is a tertiary stat for most fighters (who are the ones wearing heavy armors). One or two points at most should be considered.

In fact the special materials that lower mass of armor and usally reduce the Armor Check Penalty would be better suited to reducing the Dex penalty.

Grand Lodge

JoelF847 wrote:
AlKir wrote:
hogarth wrote:
I've noticed that some people are really, really into getting a high AC and some people are not; it varies from person to person and from campaign to campaign. Personally, I would much rather focus all of my resources on killing my enemies rather than not getting hit. So mithral full plate is more than enough for my melee characters in most cases.
Honestly it has been my experience that AC is largely irrelevant after level 12. Who cares if you have an AC of 35? Most melee brutes within that CR range have 30+ attack values. High HP's and magic items that grant damage reduction or a miss chance take over big time. Has anyone else noticed this?

Yes, but having an AC in the high 40s is a big deal at high levels. My dwarven defender was at that point and rarely got hit. When he did get hit, the enemy had to stop power attacking to hit him reliably, and that made a huge difference.

As to the main question, wearing armor is a great way to get a good AC for most characters. The super high Dex characters might not want that route, but that leaves the other 80% of characters wearing armor. The other problem is builds that rely on multiple spells for high AC are vulnerable to dispel magic, not to mention convincing the party spellcasters to burn those spell slots on your AC instead of something they might prefer.

Which is one reason I was devestated when the change to 3.5 made buff spells per minute instead of per hour. Great now the Cleric needs to prepare 2-3 Bull Strength, 2-3 Bear's Endurance, 2-3 of this and 2-3 of that. Here's a quarter buff me again. Here's a quarter buff me again. What you mean you have no spells left? Damn time to rest again!

Our group never had those 15 minute adventuring days until 3.5 screwed everything. Darn it I HATE 3.5 buff spells!

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Yep, that is the bar bones fact. Armor isn't worth the feat you got to get it. The weight is a problem, there is a max Dex, there is an armor check penalty, and the biggest problem, the reduced speed.

Although I disagree with you about relative amount of protection that armor provides, I do, however, wholeheartedly agree with you about the weight and movement problems. I wrote about this here:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/design/equipment/armorMediumArmorNeedsRevamping#15

I also agree with you that the Armor Proficiency feats suck, and that the penalties for not having these feats is too high. Shouldn't a reasonably skilled Rogue be able to infiltrate a group of knights by wearing armor just like theirs? Why must the Rogue be so easily identifiable because he's always wearing *Leather Armor?*

RE: Krome criticism about 3.5 buffs spells being too short, I agree, however I think that 1 hour per level is too long. In 3.0 there was no reason to play a Fighter or a Paladin, when a Cleric was superior to either by simply buffing himself hours beforehand. If 1 minute per level is too short, and 1 hour per level is too long, then the obvious compromise is 10 minutes per level.


Forever Man wrote:


I also agree with you that the Armor Proficiency feats suck, and that the penalties for not having these feats is too high. Shouldn't a reasonably skilled Rogue be able to infiltrate a group of knights by wearing armor just like theirs? Why must the Rogue be so easily identifiable because he's always wearing *Leather Armor?*

You probably never did wear plate armor.


Krome wrote:


My fighter solved that problem in one session easily. Wizard kept buffing himself up. Fighter said "stop that and kill something." Wizard kept buffing up. Next fight my fighter took position behind the Wizard. "Go get him tank," I said and refused to engage. Course the Wizard almost died since he started the fight with crap AC, and tried to buff himself and kept getting hit. Afterwards he learned better.

And the anecdote of the year award goes to...


If I have a high level game ahead of me I commonly just save my money for bracors, so long as my dex is at least a 14, and just wore bracors of armor and a bond leaf warp armor (Arms & Equipment 3.0). That way I had no max dex, ac of full plate, and still got the +10 enhancement bonuses from armor, also with no movement penalty.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
If I have a high level game ahead of me I commonly just save my money for bracors, so long as my dex is at least a 14, and just wore bracors of armor and a bond leaf warp armor (Arms & Equipment 3.0). That way I had no max dex, ac of full plate, and still got the +10 enhancement bonuses from armor, also with no movement penalty.

You could instead have +5 full plate though for +13, or +5 stoneplate from the Pathfinder Campaign setting for +14 armor bonus. This also costs a lot less than +8 bracers (about 27K for +5 full plate - 64K for bracers) The extra money can further bump up your AC by purchasing a better ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, dusty rose ioun stone, etc. or items that increase your saving throws to bolster other defenses.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Or movement enhancers, since you're going to be running to keep up with the rest of the party wearing all that.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Or movement enhancers, since you're going to be running to keep up with the rest of the party wearing all that.

True, but with boots of springing and striding being only about 6K, you have lots of extra cash for that still. It's even less if you can let your DM allow just boots of striding and not pay for the jump bonus.


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Or heaven forbid a +5 shield for an extra +7~+9 to your AC. Heck make it a buckler for a simple paltry +6 to AC, you can still use both your arms then.

at 64k for the bracers you can afford both armor and a shield and have the armor be mithril.

For the spell chuckers grab a mithril breastplate + 4 twilight with a thistledown suit (or a simple +5 mithril chain shirt) under it with a mithril buckler, you got a -3 armor check penalty sure but you get + 15 to your AC with no Arcane spell failure or movement restrictions, for about 56~57k total.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

And if you don't use a shield, you can spend the extra cash on increasing your weapon, or getting a pale green prism ioun stone to grant +1 competance to your attacks, saves, and skill checks.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

I do have a couple of questions for you guys, and I'm sorry for a minor threadjack, but these don't really seem like the kinds of questions to ask eslewhere.

1. Why do is 25 point buy considered "the best"? In all honesty, the way the system is now with the higher scores having higher costs thats entirely unreasonable.

Remember that Pathfinder uses 10 as the baseline for buying stats, not 8. The cost of a 14 or lower is less in Pathfinder than in D&D.

I think the Pathfinder stat costs are designed to reward characters that don't plunge all their points into one stat.


Problem #1 with magical and Mithril/Adamntine armors: maintenance is handwaved. This is multiplied in a wealth-by-level system. It should be a huge pain to find an armorsmith capable of fixing broken links in your Mth/Adm Chain Shirt

Problem #2 is the stochastic model for armor that D&D uses. It sucks, and hugely. But we work with what we've got.

2A: Add modest DR (most suggest Lt=1, Med=2, Hv=3, Mth=+1, Adm=+2) and it doesn't suck so much. Now one chooses between DR and AC for magic bonuses. I would use a staggered scale: DR+1=AC+1, DR+2=AC+3, DR+3=AC+5.

2B: Add AoE saving throw bonus and DR based on % body area covered, +1 per 20% coverage. So, sure, your Adm Chain Shirt is AC+4 DR 3, but since it only covers the torso it has only +2 AoE bonus/DR. Full body Padded armor, AC+1 DR 1, would have +5 AoE bonus/DR.

now one has a third option for enchanted armors: AoE DR would be added based on a linear scale AoE+1=AC+1, but max +1 per 20% coverage.

If the AoE save would fail without the armor bonus, the armor takes the difference in damage. Obviously, the Adm Shirt can withstand far more damage than the Padded armor. This brings us back around to the maintenance issue.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
JoelF847 wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Or movement enhancers, since you're going to be running to keep up with the rest of the party wearing all that.
True, but with boots of springing and striding being only about 6K, you have lots of extra cash for that still. It's even less if you can let your DM allow just boots of striding and not pay for the jump bonus.

If the GM allows the magic item creation rules, then boots of expeditious retreat (+30 ft enhancement bonus to base speed) are a steal for 4,000gp. You can wear medium/heavy armor and still have a speed of 40 ft.


Dragonchess Player wrote:
If the GM allows the magic item creation rules, then boots of expeditious retreat (+30 ft enhancement bonus to base speed) are a steal for 4,000gp. You can wear medium/heavy armor and still have a speed of 40 ft.

Generally, you shouldn't use the "by spell" costs for making items that provide persistent bonuses. Down that path lies the robe of mage armor giving a +4 armor bonus to AC for 2,000 gp instead of the 16,000 gp you'd get by paying for the actual bonus, or the ring of protection from evil giving you a +2 deflection bonus to AC against 75% of opponents plus protection from mind control and summoned monsters for 4,000 gp.

You could try to reverse-engineer the cost from the boots of striding and springing. The BOSS give you two bonuses: +10 to speed, and +5 to Jump, all for 5,500 gp. +5 to Jump costs 2,500 gp (just like any other +5 skill item), leaving 3,000 gp for the +10 speed. Since the item has two bonuses, the lower cost gets multiplied by 1.5, and dividing by 1.5 gives us 2,000 gp for a "straight" +10 speed item.

I see no reason why speed should be any different from other bonuses, so the cost should scale with the square of the bonus. That gives us:
+10 speed: 2,000 gp
+20 speed: 8,000 gp
+30 speed: 18,000 gp


Krome wrote:


besides what point is it to open up Dex more on Armor? Your average fighter does NOT have a Dex of 30. Those points go into Str and Con. Dex is a tertiary stat for most fighters (who are the ones wearing heavy armors). One or two points at most should be considered.

Ditto with your points on wearing armor.

It has been my experience that the class most helped by heavy armor is the paladin. That class needs more points in other stats then just the "fighting three" and generally have the worst dex of all the melee classes.

Talk about somebody that needs their heavy armor:
Paladin Player' "hmm, I need CHA ... and some STR ... hopefully some points left over for CON. eh, looks like Dex is going to be 10 (again)."


Forever Man wrote:
I also agree with you that the Armor Proficiency feats suck, and that the penalties for not having these feats is too high. Shouldn't a reasonably skilled Rogue be able to infiltrate a group of knights by wearing armor just like theirs? Why must the Rogue be so easily identifiable because he's always wearing *Leather Armor?*

Go ahead and wear the armor. Nothing wrong with walking along wearing it now. Fighting in it? Well ... LoL

The Exchange

I will not argue that unarmored is better than armored (spellcasting defenses are better, but they take a moment or two) but i will argue light armor prof is better then medium and heavy. I have noticed a definitive shying away from heavier armors if they have any sort of choice. (i got a 14 DEX? that sounds like its chain shirt time!) its like a walking death trap. you cant sneak, cant escape, and all for the price of having a point or two of armor higher then the guy escaping from the losing battle) breastplate is a joke, and THAT THE BEST MEDIUM ARMOR, one point of ac for slower movement and no mobility, no thanks.

I seriously hope the movement penalty gets addressed for the Fighter class AT LEAST. (at least higher level Paladins can have a horse to lug their clanky backsides into battle)

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