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In our group, and in others I’ve seen, there is a popular tactic – throw an alchemists fire on a creature, and then while it is ‘burning’ pepper it with oil flasks, which burn as alchemists’ fire, and so on.
I’ve always thought this is slightly cheesy, and should probably be clarified in the Oil description to “once it is thrown, there is a 50% chance of the flask igniting successfully, or damaging an already burning creature”, otherwise after you hit a creature with alchemist's fire, all further oil flasks are just as good as the alchemists' fire in question.
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Thoughts?
Although I hadn't thought of it before, this sounds like a great tactic for kobolds.
And throwing more oil on a target does increase it's coverage of fuel, thus each should do their own damage.
I'm not sure if subsequent dosing of oil should cause more increased damage per round. How about instead causing the during of the burning damage to increase by 1 or 2 rounds per flask?
-Skeld
I prefer allowing this combo to adding another sub-system specifying the chances a mundane oil flask ignites...
Making it extend duration could work, though it seems like the DC to extinguish it should also increase for each additional oil flask.
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Thoughts?Although I hadn't thought of it before, this sounds like a great tactic for kobolds.
And throwing more oil on a target does increase it's coverage of fuel, thus each should do their own damage.I'm not sure if subsequent dosing of oil should cause more increased damage per round. How about instead causing the during of the burning damage to increase by 1 or 2 rounds per flask?
-Skeld
I have to disagree...more fuel means a hotter fire and more area covered...Thus more damage per round.
Technically if you threw a water flask on them it would increase the heat tenfold, since it would atomize the oil molecules.
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This would have been a nasty tactic for a creature or npc in my Savage Tide game vs the blackpowder pistol wielder PC fighter, ha ha.
Thou he did get eaten by the pirate zombies below Parrot Island thou.......
Like others, I agree it's a nasty but effective tactic & have no problems with it.
If the party is constantly using it, start adding items that are combustible or treasure that melts or burns due to fire (like scrolls). Maybe send a creature that is immune to fire??
RM
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This would have been a nasty tactic for a creature or npc in my Savage Tide game vs the blackpowder pistol wielder PC fighter, ha ha.
Thou he did get eaten by the pirate zombies below Parrot Island thou.......
Like others, I agree it's a nasty but effective tactic & have no problems with it.
If the party is constantly using it, start adding items that are combustible or treasure that melts or burns due to fire (like scrolls). Maybe send a creature that is immune to fire??
RM
A creature immune to fire, that likes to grapple...while immolated in flame...MWUAHAHAHA
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Much like the spiked gauntlet backup weapon and anything Archade has to say about Tree Tokens, this tactic and the resulting complaint is largely my fault. :)
IMO it's an viable attack option at low level when you don't have a lot of resources. It sees limited play at mid level when the enemy has crazy DR and/or SR but no fire immunity. After level 10 or so, it's no longer effective. The other mitigating factor is the encumbrance and lack of economy of action to draw and throw the oil vs. a standard attack like shooting an arrow or lobbing a spell.
I believe that (in this case) Archade is making a volcano out of a road flare.
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Much like the spiked gauntlet backup weapon and anything Archade has to say about Tree Tokens, this tactic and the resulting complaint is largely my fault. :)
You just wait till we get to the magic items section of the playtest ... :)
My pointing out of the spiked gauntlet and alchemist's fire isn't a complaint so much as an observation how my game fell into a routine of using a tactic that is effective, but the rules skirt the issue.
I don't mind the players using the effective tactics, nor do I feel they are unbalancing or unreasonable, but I'm pointing out these gray areas in the playtest, so they can be addressed, should Jason deem it necessary. I am sure if my players went to another DM and tried the alchemists' fire/flask of oil tactic, some of them wouldn't allow it (or only allow a 50% chance of the oil igniting, or only giving splash damage, etc).
actually, that's a great tactic...but it is a full round action to prepare and use a grenade-like weapon...so...I don't think it's overpowering...
And throwing more oil on a target does increase it's coverage of fuel, thus each should do their own damage.
actually RAW it is a full round action to PREPARE a grenade like weapon not PREPARE AND USE. Logically it should then be a standard action to throw the weapon.
Please fix this, it is nuts- especially as the weapons are vials that can just be thrown, they dont have to be lit or anything. It should be prepare and use (though why there has to be a special rule for this escapes me)
grenade like weapons should not be treated differently from say a dagger, they are not too powerful given their cost.
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actually RAW it is a full round action to PREPARE a grenade like weapon not PREPARE AND USE. Logically it should then be a standard action to throw the weapon.
Please fix this, it is nuts- especially as the weapons are vials that can just be thrown, they dont have to be lit or anything. It should be prepare and use (though why there has to be a special rule for this escapes me)
grenade like weapons should not be treated differently from say a dagger, they are not too powerful given their cost.
They've already fixed this, at least in the case of our topic here.
Since you don't have to light the oil flask on fire if your target is already in flames, the flask is a splash weapon. On page 135 of the Pathfinder Beta, Table 9-2, top of the right hand column we see that preparing and throwing the splash weapon is only a full round action.
Now according to the description of oil on page 115 it does take a full round action to stuff a rag in the flask and light it. Not the case here.
I don't see this as a cheesy tactic at all. It's very much in theme and the tradition of its use goes all the way back to the origins of the game. Is there an obviously better way for a low level party to deal with crawling swarms of vermin?
Sam
i see what people are saying here but I agree with the poster that said that throwing a grenadelike weapon shouldnt be any different than throwing a knife. It still is.
I dont get those whole 'prepare and use' thing, was that necessary?
Why not just; a move action to draw out the grenade, an attack action to throw?
That would allow a character, if they wanted to, to take the quick draw feat, and get multiple attacks per round with grenadelike weapons... just like someone with the same feats could do with knives.
As I understand it, that would not be something one could do within the current pathfinder rules... I hope that changes.