It has been our experience since 3.0 that that the armor chart for the game isn't terribly effective. The biggest flaw visible is medium armor: No player wears medium armor unless it their class limits them to medium armor; even then they only wear breastplate.
Here's the reasoning: All classes except barbarian and druid start being able to wear either 1) no armor or light armor (or have abilities that only function with light armor and so wouldn't move up) OR 2) heavy armor. Druidic characters go straight for Ironwood Armor at the first opportunity.
Further, medium armor has terrible penalties associated with it: You lose 10' of speed and you have a low dex bonus. Even with the max dex bonus available on medium armor, you still don't match the bonus you could get from wearing Full Plate. Heavy armor has the same speed penalty.
The skill check penalties are less, true. But if you're a tank, you don't really care how well you can use Acrobatics, and if you're a skillful character chances are you aren't wearing medium armor anyway.
Hide armor is the biggest problem: The only reason a person would wear Hide is because they couldn't cough up the extra 10 gold for Studded Leather.
From a purely realistic point of view, it may make sense. But in my experience for the last eight years, no one wears medium armor for very long.
If the speed penalty for medium armor were reduced, or the skill check penalties lessened, then there may be a good reason to turn back to medium armor. It may be wise to take Hide Armor off of the main chart and move it to a section with "primitive arms and armor." That way we can equip our cavemen logically, but not just pass over medium armor in character creation.
I think all armors need to be re-examined, right now the list that is actually used is tiny compared to the choices available. The reality is that everyone wears studded leather,chainshirt,breastplate, or full plate as soon as they can get them. It would be cool if there was a good reason to wear all of the armors, not just that it was the best thing you could get on the way to the armor you really want.
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A slight tweak that our group uses to make medium armors more attractive is that the "Max Dex Bonus" applies to ALL uses of Dexterity. This means that a Full Plate wearer only gets to use +1 of his DEX bonus for things like Tumble, ranged attacks, and Reflex saves. (This has the side effect of making Brutal Throw a useful and practical feat for fighters who want to wear heavy armor and still hit things with ranged weapons.)
Now, granted, most "tank" characters don't generally emphasize high DEX scores, but for some, the breastplate is more attractive than full plate because of this tiny revision.
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How well would 'lumping' the armours together in such a way that there's light armour, medium armour, and heavy armour? Light armour gives +2 AC, +6 dex; Medium +4 Armour, +4 Dex; and Heavy +6 Armour, +2 dex.
Edit: The categories could still be used to limit what would be considered 'light', 'medium', or 'heavy' armours, from a RPing PoV
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I've always felt that the Chain Shirt is too good for Light Armor.
Perhaps something like this would work;
Light Armors
Cloth / Padded +1 armor
Leather +2
Studded Leather +3
Chain Shirt +3
Hide Shirt +3
Medium Armors
Hide +4
Scale mail +4
Breastplate +5
Chainmail +5
Splint mail +6
Banded mail +6
Heavy Armors
Half-plate +7
Full plate +8
Various other armors could be squeezed in as appropriate, with Light armors conferring no better than a +3 armor bonus, Medium armors no worse than +4 and no better than +6, and anything +7 or better being Heavy armor.
Because of the existence of Druids as a core class, Darkwood breastplates and / or bone/shell/etc. armors should be available in the Players Handbook. If the class is going to have a specific mention of a certain armor type being available in the class description, it *darn well* should be in the equipment list!
A slight tweak that our group uses to make medium armors more attractive is that the "Max Dex Bonus" applies to ALL uses of Dexterity. This means that a Full Plate wearer only gets to use +1 of his DEX bonus for things like Tumble, ranged attacks, and Reflex saves. (This has the side effect of making Brutal Throw a useful and practical feat for fighters who want to wear heavy armor and still hit things with ranged weapons.)
Now, granted, most "tank" characters don't generally emphasize high DEX scores, but for some, the breastplate is more attractive than full plate because of this tiny revision.
It's an interesting thought, to be sure! Right now, most tank characters don't care about their dexterity because of the armor check penalty.
I recall back in the dim days of 3.0 the idea behind Reflex Saves was that even a clumsy character can fall out of the way of a deadly spell; it was less about Dexterity and more about avoiding something terrible through luck and pure chance.
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A slight tweak that our group uses to make medium armors more attractive is that the "Max Dex Bonus" applies to ALL uses of Dexterity. This means that a Full Plate wearer only gets to use +1 of his DEX bonus for things like Tumble, ranged attacks, and Reflex saves. (This has the side effect of making Brutal Throw a useful and practical feat for fighters who want to wear heavy armor and still hit things with ranged weapons.)
Now, granted, most "tank" characters don't generally emphasize high DEX scores, but for some, the breastplate is more attractive than full plate because of this tiny revision.
It's an interesting thought, to be sure! Right now, most tank characters don't care about their dexterity because of the armor check penalty.
I recall back in the dim days of 3.0 the idea behind Reflex Saves was that even a clumsy character can fall out of the way of a deadly spell; it was less about Dexterity and more about avoiding something terrible through luck and pure chance.
That would still be the case. It's only the Dexterity component of Reflex saves that would be limited, not the class level component.
That would still be the case. It's only the Dexterity component of Reflex saves that would be limited, not the class level component.
I wonder if this would have any real effect. Most tanks I've seen played simply ignore Dexterity anyway, because the armor limits the benefit to AC and saves can be boosted with Cloaks of Resistance (which are more cost-effective anyway). I fear that such a rule would push Barbarians even more towards light armor, and leave most tanks with 12 Dexterity for 20 levels.
I say remove base move penalties from armor Keep the run penalty and reduce the charge distance of medium armors by 5ft and heavy armors by 10ft.
Dwarves would still benefit from their racial ability by running/charging at full speed.
I like the idea of medium armor moving at a normal speed in short distances and reduced speed at longer distances, because I think it makes medium armor a much more appealing choice to balance characters. It also makes the mad rush to Mithral less common.
I like the idea of medium armor moving at a normal speed in short distances and reduced speed at longer distances, because I think it makes medium armor a much more appealing choice to balance characters. It also makes the mad rush to Mithral less common.I say remove base move penalties from armor Keep the run penalty and reduce the charge distance of medium armors by 5ft and heavy armors by 10ft.
Dwarves would still benefit from their racial ability by running/charging at full speed.
Suggested on your other thread, 30ft move and x3 run. Good balance.
I've had my own ideas of how to change armor so that all types are more equitable and used by players. After looking over the various threads on armor, I'm coming to the conclusion that it may not be entirely possible. I think there will always be a couple of armor types that stand out over all others. However, I still think the armor chart can be tweaked just a little.
The specific changes I'd like to see:
1) Speed for Medium Armor increased to 30' and run speed decreased to x3.
This change pertains to this thread topic of course.
The movement relationship between the armor types would then break down as follows:
Light armor: 30' tactical movement, 4x speed when running (120'/round)
Medium armor: 30' tactical movement, 3x speed when running (90'/round)
Heavy armor: 20' tactical movement, 3x speed when running (60'/round)
This would make for good armor tactically in battle, but still not allow easy escape if things fare poorly for one wanting more protection than light armor. I don't think this would affect table 8-6.
As a side affect, I think it would also make the wording for mithral easier by not having to explain movement the movement changes it currently has. Instead, you could simply say that mithral allows 4x movement while running when made as medium/heavy armor (120'/80' per round respectively)
A small change would need to be made to the run feat.
2) The Max Dex bonus for all heavy armors increased by +1
splint mail: +1 max dex
banded mail: +2 max dex
half-plate: +1 max dex
full plate: +2 max dex
I'd like to see this change simply for the reason that should a character who prefers this armor, gets at least some benefit if he/she has a dex bonus of any sort or gives the option to invest into dex a little.
3) Tower shield's weight changed to 30 lbs. (twice that of a heavy shield), and it's armor check penalty reduced to -7 (putting it in the range of the heavy armor penalties). Oh, and since it's made of wood, it doesn't count against swim checks... in fact you can use it as a mini raft (just kidding).
I've posted a similar idea to Mr. Valente's before, and I shall do so again, as we share some similar ideas. Mine are a little more radical, as I wish to simply moving in armor and encumberance in one fell swoop. Note, I am in favor of an Encumberance Points System, that Krome, and others, have suggested.
Encumbrance is something that has bothered me, both as a GM and a player, for some time now. The encumbrance system is just completely off. It doesn’t even mimic fantasy well. I don’t like how a movement rate / encumbrance is tied specifically to a suit of armor. A suit of Full Plate armor is about 65 lbs on average. That weight is evenly distributed across your entire body with straps & buckles, etc. That’s heavy, sure, but *it’s made to be used in combat,* and fitted for its wearer. Now let’s apply that suit of armor to our heroic Fighter with that 18 Str and we have a little common sense problem. According to the rules, a light load for our hero, let’s call him Joe, is 100 lbs. Impressive. Joe is an incredibly strong human being (or dwarf, or whatever). And yet, in his plate armor, Joe’s base movement rate is 20, and his run is just x3 that. At first glance, that looks fine. But what happens when Joe is unarmored, but picks up his armor (in a large sack or something) and carries it over his back? Well, the answer is, according to 3.5 ed/ PRPG rules, is that Joe has no movement restrictions whatsoever. He can walk 30′ as a standard move action, and can run x4 that.
That's stunningly counter-intuitive.
So I’ve come up with the following house rules
1) Ignore the Speed Rules listed under Table 7-6: Armor & Shields on page 108 of the PRPG.
2) Use Table 8-4 (pg. 125): Carrying Capacity for ALL ENCUMBERANCE instead. Just add up the weights and you’re done.
3) If your character’s total weight carried indicates a LIGHT LOAD, then your character suffers no movement penalty whatsoever.
4) A MEDIUM LOAD doesn’t lower your BASE MOVEMENT RATE!
5) INSTEAD, a MEDIUM LOAD lowers your MAXIMUM RUN MOVEMENT to x3!! Unless you’re a dwarf, then you can still RUN with a heavy pack.
6) The rules for HEAVY LOADS remain unchanged. (You suffer both penalties, i.e. your BASE MOVEMENT RATE is reduced to 20, and your MAXIMUM RUN MOVEMENT is only 60.)
Why 3-6? Because carrying a *fairly* heavy weight, like I often did when I was a FedEx Courier, doesn’t slow down the rate you can walk at, only how long you can carry said weight. What you can’t do while carrying, say 45 lbs, is RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN!! Wearing a suit of chain mail isn’t going to affect how fast *you can walk!* But, what it does affect, is how fast you can run!
I am a radical, sure.
What I really want is a simplified Weights & Measures system, or whatever.
There should not be two encumberance systems, one based on wearing armor, and another based on carrying everything else.
If total weight & only the encumberance chart on page 125 is used to calculate whether a PC's speed is reduced or not, it's just much simpler.
More importantly, for me, the Gygaxian concept that plate armor is so cumbersome as to physically reduce your walking speed by 2/3 or more has absolutely no basis in reality whatsoever. Doing summersaults & cartwheels isn't much harder than normal, but I've seen guys in the SCA do backflips in their plate armor.
Lastly, what's really the point of reducing base movement speed for wearing plate armor? How is it fun? What is achieved by these rules?
WHY HAVE TO GODS OF GOLARION FORSAKEN ME?
;^D
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I hate to add limits to the existing game...
But D&D has a vastly underused endurance/fatigue system. If one would add a blurb in the armor table stating that endurance checks are required every hour for wearing heavy armor, we would:
A) have more people use Medium armor; and
B) have more people take the Endurance feat, which would negate this requirement.
And I agree that armor needs to provide benefits beyond AC bonii...
Examples:
-- Hide, for instance, could protect against cold attacks (it's a damn fur coat right?) Cold Resistance 5?
-- Halfplate could be used with no riding or perception penalties, while fullplate would incur a penalty to both skills (so the riders would "stop" at halfplate instead of full plate)
-- Chainmail could allow a guy to walk right through thorny bushes, caltrops, spike stones, spiky things, etc.
-- leather/padded (weak armors) could give a bonus to stealth if properly colored (black for night ops; white in arctic; green in the bush; etc.)
-- Scale? hmm... due to the overlapping design, acid resistance 5 as the acid drips down over other scales or affected scales "detach" and fall (as opposed to other armor where the acid digs, digs, then ouch!)
-- etc.
(i.e. the "good" armors -- chain shirt, breatplate, fullplate -- would remain as is, with no further benefit)
I hate to add limits to the existing game...
But D&D has a vastly underused endurance/fatigue system. If one would add a blurb in the armor table stating that endurance checks are required every hour for wearing heavy armor, we would:
A) have more people use Medium armor; and
B) have more people take the Endurance feat, which would negate this requirement.
It's not a bad idea, but chances are all it will do is make players take their armor off and on between riding to and from the dungeon. I guess my answer to making medium armor better isn't to make heavy armor less appealing. There's already an issue (though less pronounced than some make it out to be) with characters eschewing armor entirely for magical protection and dex boosts.
And I agree that armor needs to provide benefits beyond AC bonii...
This is a great idea. I don't know if it's appropriate for the player's handbook, but I would hope to see an Arms and Equipment style supplement that has alternate rules for mundane armor abilities. It helps customize characters and is frankly a lot of fun to play around with.
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Hi,
I posted this over in my suggested armour addition for brigandine. This might be a more appropriate spot to get feedback:
Why not just make armour descriptions generic to reflect levels of protection instead of representing a specific kind of armour? This will allow for the chainmail bikini and the impossible plate as well as the more historically accurate armours simply by making the description in game.
We can give it a rating of 1 to 9, where 1-3 is light, 4-6 is medium and 7-9 is heavy. Every 1 point of armour gives a 5% ASF, every 2 armour points is 1 point of ACP, Max dex is 10-armour value, weight is 5 lbs plus 5 per Armour Point. Cost would depend on armour category. Light armour is 10gp plus 10gp per AP. Medium is 50gp plus 50 per AP. Heavy is 500gp plus 100 per AP. You must specify if armour is metal or non-metal.
Non-metal armour suffers -1 AP and increases in weight as if it were 1 AP higher. This can help the druid get decent armour by making it non-metal in description, but not being crazy about the abilities of skin and bark vs. good ol' steel. Metal armour can be made of special metals (mithral, adamantine etc...), and non metals can be made different special materials (dragonhide, darkwood etc...).
(edited for some problems with sentence structure)
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I like your idea. More, ingredients for armor, Vs. specific Armor.
It may add in a few tables. AP, ACL, ASP, Weight, cost, and Materials usable(which would actually put them in the armor catigoy and not at the back of the book). And it can be tailored to your expence account. take what ever you like, then add in master work/magical items.
All in all great, but not simple enough, so it will probably not make it into the PF. Maybe an Arms and armor though.
I am also fond of the Just use weight as encumberance, and the idea that armors give binifits, IE acid resistance. But i think it should be minimal, unles you have MW armor. that would justify 300 gold. I lie this.
As is i am keeping track of certain things i like in these forums. So whe the new PF cames out in August, if i don't like there changes, then i'll add in options from my list. These are definately going on my list as interesting.
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Thanks for the input. It's still really in the rough stages of ideation. If someone wants to run with it an refine it to a simple system with a table and some notes, they're welcom to. I bet it would take up far less space than the existing armour section. :)
I think masterwork would be on top of this system, as would special materials. Basically, they're templates for your armour anyways.
I've been wrestling with this since 3.0 came out (and before, though the wrestling match had different rules).
First, I ditched the 20' move penalty for medium armor all together.
Second, I gave medium armors a resistance to critical hits (it varies by type, but from 15-25% with the lower values going on the popular medium armors and the higher values going on the armors that are less popular).
This is justified by two things:
1. Light armors just don't offer much protection, so no crit modifier - if you get tagged, you eat the crit.
2. Heavy armors are good at blocking damage but not good at getting out of the way of damage, so if your foe hits you just right, it's gonna hurt.
3. Medium is the best of both worlds. Enough resistance to damage to soak up some deadly hits while not restricting mobility too much so you can still avoid many of the deadly hits. Hence, fewer critical hits.
Third, I rebalanced the Armor table so that all armors can give you 10 points of AC, assuming you have the maximum DEX allowed for that armor. This means the AC value of the armor, added to the Max DEX, equals 10 for all armors.
This third adjustment allows all combatants to pick and choose the armor that best suits their body type.
Big and clumsy, go with the heaviest armor you can find. Scrawny and nimble, go with the light armor and get good uee out of your DEX. Somewhere in between with a decent but modest DEX, maybe medium armor is for you, especially since it doesn't slow you down in tactical combat and you get some critical hit resistance - which seems adequate compensation for someone who took the time and effort to invest in their DEX when they probably didn't have to.
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I like it. all armors are basically equal. and the fighter gets a nice bonus for his armor training, giving him a leg up on the competion, without having to go for the full plate. does that meant that full plate is now ac9+ 1 dex? and padded is now 1aC+9 dex?
If you're referring to my suggested model, yes. Padded though is just a name. This could apply to tinfoil wrapped around your head and a GW red t-shirt just as accurately. :)