[Dragon Deciple] I don't like the non melee / template change


Prestige Classes


Initially I liked the fact that the PrC looked more usable when compared to the 3.5 version. However after looking over the changes I have come to a conclusion that this new one while is more useful it loses all the original key abilities that we wanted.

Frankly Jason I see what you are trying to do, your trying to make the class more useful rather than more powerful; I disagree that it didn't need to be more powerful and how you changed it. DD needed to be more powerful. A melee type takes a 1 level dip, probably sorcerer, and goes into DD.

The problem was simple, they didn't get enough magic support really, so one of two things needed to be done, get rid of the support entirely or give us more support, you have over killed the later. 1/2 caster level is preferred here.

The other problem was it didn't give enough for the 1 level caster dip, and in comparison of normal class abilities, especially now with the beefed up base classes.

I also strongly dislike the Form of the Dragon spell like ability as it is quite temporary in comparison to the actual permanent template. To top it off the bonuses given by the spell is enhancement, the most common there and least likely to stack.

Here is some food for thought.

Why not grant energy resistance through the levels till they get the template that grants the invariability to the energy type.

Give the template at an earlier level, and grant the spell like ability at level 10.

Maybe sense dragons were such inherent casters, grant some armor casting ability, and loved to fight, like ignore some small % or arcane spell chance failure.

And finally, but least preferred and likely, give them full Base Attack?

So please Jason just give us our melee class back.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
The problem was simple, they didn't get enough magic support really, so one of two things needed to be done, get rid of the support entirely or give us more support, you have over killed the later. 1/2 caster level is preferred here.

The obvious question here is, "preferred by whom?" Not me. I like it just fine as it is. Hell, I'd probably lose the -3 spellcasting levels if it was up to me, but that would be, I admit, fairly blatant powergaming and should not be done.


Michael Johnston wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
The problem was simple, they didn't get enough magic support really, so one of two things needed to be done, get rid of the support entirely or give us more support, you have over killed the later. 1/2 caster level is preferred here.

The obvious question here is, "preferred by whom?" Not me. I like it just fine as it is. Hell, I'd probably lose the -3 spellcasting levels if it was up to me, but that would be, I admit, fairly blatant powergaming and should not be done.

Umm I was talking about the original PrC.

It was melee, and the point was to get the template. Now it has nether. This just sucks, and seems ass backwards!

P.S. Are you forgetting that your losing a lot by not getting the template and that the bonuses you gain from form of the dragon I are enhancement and are +4 and below, so when your level 13, when you get it 1/day, your magic items are better than the form.


Here is my quick fix. Simple sweet, but I am not sure about the level past 10, those are just a thought.

1st +0 +1 +0 +1 Blood of Dragons, natural armor increase (+1)
2nd +1 +1 +1 +1 Ability boost (Str +2), bloodline feat —
3rd +2 +2 +1 +2 Breath weapon, energy resistance 10
4th +3 +2 +1 +2 Ability boost (Str +2), natural armor increase (+2)
5th +3 +3 +2 +3 Blindsense 30 ft., bloodline feat —
6th +4 +3 +2 +3 Ability boost (Con +2), energy resistance 20
7th +5 +4 +2 +4 Natural armor increase (+3)
8th +6 +4 +3 +4 Ability boost (Int +2), bloodline feat —
9th +6 +5 +3 +5 Wings, Energy resistance 30
10th +7 +5 +3 +5 Dragon apotheosis, blindsense 60 ft.

11th +8 +6 +4 +6 Bloodline Feat —
12th +9 +6 +4 +6 Form of the dragon (1/day)
13th +9 +7 +4 +7 Light armor casting
14th +10 +7 +5 +7 Form of the dragon (2/day) bloodline feat

Spells per Day: At 2nd levels and ever even level of dragon deciple then on, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day, and spells know, as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane
spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

P.S. Form of Dragon I: Same as spell but with the following exceptions.
+4 Strength untyped, +4 Natural Armor untyped. Form is restricted to the same type of dragon that you chose for your bloodline.


I am sorry, but I just don't see how mt build above is not more inline with the roll, goal, and game-play of the original PrC, but also better than the original.


So alone..... T_T


I'm playing a character now I intend to take down the Dragon Disciple path. (A paladin/sorcerer/dragon disciple)

Although I haven't played it through yet, I have some thoughts after examining the class.

I too miss apotheosis as a keystone. In the old class you finally get to become the monster you were meant to be. Getting the template what Dragon Disciple was all about. A final +4 Str, +2 Cha, type change, Power of Wyrm immunities, dark vision. Roar! Form of the dragon II is powerful, but just isn't the same.

I do like that the new DD is more magical. That opens up some creative possibilities people were unlikely to explore before. The old DD was so melee oriented that most builds I know of only took one level of sorcerer to qualify. While I appreciate the additional casting levels, I would sacrifice a couple and Form of the Dragon to bring back apotheosis.

If you can't work apotheosis back in, consider a +2 Cha boost instead of the +2 Int? In the old DD you got your charisma boost at apotheosis, here you don't get it at all, which bites since most likely your primary casting stat is Cha. (Speaking of bites... this DD has no bite?)

Please consider making this more dragon-like and less sorcerer like.


Some quick differences. From the old DD we lose +4 Str, +2 Cha, Bite, Full attack of claw, claw bite, immunity to energy type, immunity sleep and paralysis, darkvision 60', low-light vision, type change to dragon.

You can get your immunities if you have 10 sorcerer levels in addition to DD, otherwise not... so I expect for most its a loss.

The new DD has over the old, 4 bonus bloodline feats, 1 more AC bonus, more powerful and magical claws, 7 additional caster levels (with some bonus spells known (probably 3), a stronger breath weapon usable twice per day instead of once, and Form of the Dragon II 2/day.

I would instead add a bite at 2nd, introduce Power of Wyrm at 10th, along with +4 Str, +2 Cha, Dark vision, light vision and type change to dragon. Now you are essentially a half dragon + some. In exchange I would drop 2 spell level increases, two bloodline feats, and the form of the dragon.

You end up with a little less potent spell caster, but you have put the Dragon back into the Dragon Disciple.

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