Chief Technical Officer
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You can be disqualified for incorrect math but should we show our math in the submission (and not have it count towards the word count)?
Anything in the submission will count towards the word count. If you want to spend your words showing the math, feel free, but I don't think it will help you with the judges.
You can be disqualified for incorrect math but should we show our math in the submission (and not have it count towards the word count)?
Vic gave you an offical reply, all I can do is give you my recollections and perceptions of the last contest.
For the first round I would just do your best to get as close as you can to an accurate cost, and trust yourself. Or show it to a trusted friend who is good with mechanics.
The lesson I learned from Round One (and the entire contest) was that all requirements are important.
But some are more important than others.
I'll repeat that. Everything that is a requirement, is a requirement. But not all the requirements are weighed equally.
Bad math might kill your entry, but there are a few other requirements that might kill your entry much faster.
Just do your best. Write well. Magic Item Math is an abstract and hypothetical discipline at the best of times. Don't overthink it. Don't let it spook you. Believe in yourself.
That's my unsolicited advice. Someone else might disagree. Your mileage *will* vary.
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Magic Item Math is an abstract and hypothetical discipline at the best of times.
Wondrous Item "math" is looking for the already existing item that does kind-of sort-of what yours does, and then pulling a number from your fundament that isn't too far off from that. The DMG (and now PFRPG) table for estimating gold piece cost is the most worthless heap of text I've ever seen - you can be certain that all (or most of!) the wondrous items in the book don't use that chart.
Wondrous Item "math" is looking for the already existing item that does kind-of sort-of what yours does, and then pulling a number from your fundament that isn't too far off from that. The DMG (and now PFRPG) table for estimating gold piece cost is the most worthless heap of text I've ever seen - you can be certain that all (or most of!) the wondrous items in the book don't use that chart.
Yeah...
That is another way to put it.
There are cases where there is no basis of comparison, and it begs the question of where the original prices of those existing items came from to begin with- so you do the best you can.
But what I'm getting at to the Original Poster, that I don't want to detract from with discussion or debate about math, is that a great many Wondrous Items didn't make the cut due to anything but the math. No offense, Capp.
Its got to be original and interesting. Well written. Make sure you pass those hurdles before you fret about the math.
And if I dare say the math is not important, someone will jump to tell me I'm wrong. I'm not saying that.
The math is important. Everything is important. You just have to discern what is more important relative to any other requirement.
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But what I'm getting at to the Original Poster, that I don't want to detract from with discussion or debate about math, is that a great many Wondrous Items didn't make the cut due to anything but the math. No offense, Capp.
None taken. There will probably be HUNDREDS of Very Good items that will be eliminated simply because they're not as good as the 32 Superstar items.
And there will be just many eliminated because they didn't follow the rules, or weren't proofread, or hit one of the Judges' hot buttons, or a million other things equally as important (and equally unimportant) as the math.
The math is important. Everything is important. You just have to discern what is more important relative to any other requirement.
The contest is very Zen that way.
There will probably be HUNDREDS of Very Good items that will be eliminated simply because they're not as good as the 32 Superstar items.
Actually, this is what I'm looking for the most: the threads of people posting their very good, good, and not so good items for discussion (and the occasional 'expert' critique). :)
Good luck everyone.
There will probably be HUNDREDS of Very Good items that will be eliminated simply because they're not as good as the 32 Superstar items.
Actually, this is what I'm looking for the most: the threads of people posting their very good, good, and not so good items for discussion (and the occasional 'expert' critique). :)
Good luck everyone.
My take on the math is this: if your item isn't good, your math won't matter. If your item is (otherwise) great, your math won't matter unless you're way out of bounds, in which case you might get dumped. I mean, if you've got something Helm of Brilliance caliber (in terms of power, not quality of the entry) priced at 3000 gp, you might have a problem. But if you kick butt and you're in the ballpark, I think you will be OK.
You must give it your best shot. As I think Erik said last year, costing magic items is a bit more of an art than a science. We understand that.
I can tell you that items that were marginal that were way off in our view in cost got rejected. We did keep one or two in the final 32 that we loved but that were marginal on their costing (the Torch of Solidity comes to mind).
We used two methods last year. We always started with the chart in the PFRPG because that is the official rule. We then would also secondarily look at other comparable items from a power stand point to see where they were costed. For instance, if you have a relatively simple item, but it costs more than the helm of brilliance, you probably need to take a look at that.
But that said, this is a new year and there is a new judge involved and I certainly dont speak for all the judges.
But costing IS important.
Remember, we are looking for DESIGN talent and part of good design is good costing.
One of the "bad design stereotypes" last year was the item that the designer didnt even bother providing costing info, or obviously didnt even try to get it right. We understand there are no good hard and fast rules for costing. But that is one of the things we want to see from you--how do you do with that. Because in real life designing jobs, you have to work out the costing. You cant just pull a number out of your nether region, despite the fact that it often seems Wizards did just that in the DMG. :)
There will probably be HUNDREDS of Very Good items that will be eliminated simply because they're not as good as the 32 Superstar items.
Actually, this is what I'm looking for the most: the threads of people posting their very good, good, and not so good items for discussion (and the occasional 'expert' critique). :)
Good luck everyone.
I would like to point you to the losing items thread of superstar 2008. It has many items that were very good, but failed because they didn't appeal to the judges.
Clark pitches in at around page 10 of that thread, for some 'expert' critiqueing.
My lesson from that thread, you can have a B+ item and receive only 3 words of consideration ;>
Rejected, Rejected, Rejected
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I am actually a bit worried about this myself. I think one has to compare like Wondrous Items to get a "feely" for it. I would also look at any items with spells themselves and see what level they place. If the item is class specific, you might also look at items that are also class specific. I think this is a problem that requires a "closest to" answer, and not a specific "exact". I would never cut your words short to "proof" an item's cost. The big thing, "KNOW YOUR ITEMS WELL!" And if you do, creating one is half way done, right there.
My 2 Cents
Cheers,
Zuxius
Ugh, costing a 3.5 wondrous item is like trying to do your taxes with an abacus. The rules are crazy complex, and with no consistent examples in the DMG to base your item on, it's just that much harder.
I went by the book as much as possible with my item last year, and then I eyeballed the price with an existing item that was fairly close in form and function.
I'm glad they cleaned item costing up for fourth edition. Whether you like the new system or not, costing a 4E item is simplicity itself. Now figuring out what level your new item is, well that's a different story. =]
BD
Yes! I've been wrestling with this myself. How do you compare an item that no other item emulates? I had spent more time worried about this aspect than the actual meat of the subject itself. Finally I came to my senses, chose the formula that most closely fit my item (from Table 17-2...errm, 15-27 *big dirty grin*), then opted for the 30% reduction due to certain aspects of the item, and BAM! a total was resolved, like, well, MAGIC! Now, was the formula correct? I have no idea. Was the math sound? Oh yeah...
Now back to wrestle the 200 word monster!!! Tally HO!
And good luck to you all!!!
All I can say about the math for wondrous items is:
IMO, best bet is find an item close and go with that price with a little adjusting. The "math" can be figured so many different ways depending on the person that is trying to figure out what you did, hehe.
I have re-worked hundreds of items over the years since 3.5 came out and well except for the really simple in plain english items that conform to a rule in the chart exactly, I have never been able to re-create the cost the item was actually priced at. So long story short, have fun with the chart, if it makes sense to you, your probably not too far off. Just read the rules and bring a calculator.