I'm really in favor of the idea floated here that Jump should be un-folded from Acrobatics and folded into an Athletics skill with Climb.
Swim should remain its own skill, and I agree that it should be a trained-only skill; non-aquatic creatures are--well--like fish out of water if they're in water and never learned to swim.
Here's my reasoning for the folding of Jump and Climb.
1) It mirrors the ideas behind Perception (folding Spot & Listen), Stealth (folding Hide and Move Silently), and Acrobatics (folding Balance and Tumble).
2) Each of these folded skills recognizes similarities, NOT in what they are--we know that Spotting in not the same as Listening, for instance. They are similar in HOW they're used in the game. Perception (Spot & Listen) is used for discerning one's environment; Stealth (Hide & Move Silently) is used for avoiding detection; Acrobatics (Balance & Tumble) is used for nimble movement; and Athletics (Jump & Climb) is used for scaling physical obstacles.
3) Jump and Climb are things everyone can do (as opposed to swimming), even if not very well.
4) Jump and Climb are STR-based; not DEX-based.
Those are my thoughts.
I'm really in favor of the idea floated here that Jump should be un-folded from Acrobatics and folded into an Athletics skill with Climb.
Swim should remain its own skill, and I agree that it should be a trained-only skill; non-aquatic creatures are--well--like fish out of water if they're in water and never learned to swim.
Here's my reasoning for the folding of Jump and Climb.
1) It mirrors the ideas behind Perception (folding Spot & Listen), Stealth (folding Hide and Move Silently), and Acrobatics (folding Balance and Tumble).
2) Each of these folded skills recognizes similarities, NOT in what they are--we know that Spotting in not the same as Listening, for instance. They are similar in HOW they're used in the game. Perception (Spot & Listen) is used for discerning one's environment; Stealth (Hide & Move Silently) is used for avoiding detection; Acrobatics (Balance & Tumble) is used for nimble movement; and Athletics (Jump & Climb) is used for scaling physical obstacles.
3) Jump and Climb are things everyone can do (as opposed to swimming), even if not very well.
4) Jump and Climb are STR-based; not DEX-based.Those are my thoughts.
This makes sense and is well reasoned. I second this suggestion.
I'm really in favor of the idea floated here that Jump should be un-folded from Acrobatics and folded into an Athletics skill with Climb.
Swim should remain its own skill, and I agree that it should be a trained-only skill; non-aquatic creatures are--well--like fish out of water if they're in water and never learned to swim.
Here's my reasoning for the folding of Jump and Climb.
1) It mirrors the ideas behind Perception (folding Spot & Listen), Stealth (folding Hide and Move Silently), and Acrobatics (folding Balance and Tumble).
2) Each of these folded skills recognizes similarities, NOT in what they are--we know that Spotting in not the same as Listening, for instance. They are similar in HOW they're used in the game. Perception (Spot & Listen) is used for discerning one's environment; Stealth (Hide & Move Silently) is used for avoiding detection; Acrobatics (Balance & Tumble) is used for nimble movement; and Athletics (Jump & Climb) is used for scaling physical obstacles.
3) Jump and Climb are things everyone can do (as opposed to swimming), even if not very well.
4) Jump and Climb are STR-based; not DEX-based.Those are my thoughts.
I agree also. Well said.
But why? What's the point of separating two very similar physical skills that get used much less than most others? Wouldn't it make it more valuable and worth the precious points?
Athletics (climb + swim) gets the no vote from me.
Swimming is a highly developed skill that was not available to most of the human race for a very long time.
Climbing is a specialized skill that has nothing to do with swimming (completely different motions, muscles, tendon strength, balance, etc).
I'm really in favor of the idea floated here that Jump should be un-folded from Acrobatics and folded into an Athletics skill with Climb.
Swim should remain its own skill, and I agree that it should be a trained-only skill; non-aquatic creatures are--well--like fish out of water if they're in water and never learned to swim.
Here's my reasoning for the folding of Jump and Climb.
1) It mirrors the ideas behind Perception (folding Spot & Listen), Stealth (folding Hide and Move Silently), and Acrobatics (folding Balance and Tumble).
2) Each of these folded skills recognizes similarities, NOT in what they are--we know that Spotting in not the same as Listening, for instance. They are similar in HOW they're used in the game. Perception (Spot & Listen) is used for discerning one's environment; Stealth (Hide & Move Silently) is used for avoiding detection; Acrobatics (Balance & Tumble) is used for nimble movement; and Athletics (Jump & Climb) is used for scaling physical obstacles.
3) Jump and Climb are things everyone can do (as opposed to swimming), even if not very well.
4) Jump and Climb are STR-based; not DEX-based.Those are my thoughts.
Good idea.
I'm really in favor of the idea floated here that Jump should be un-folded from Acrobatics and folded into an Athletics skill with Climb.
Swim should remain its own skill, and I agree that it should be a trained-only skill; non-aquatic creatures are--well--like fish out of water if they're in water and never learned to swim.
Here's my reasoning for the folding of Jump and Climb.
1) It mirrors the ideas behind Perception (folding Spot & Listen), Stealth (folding Hide and Move Silently), and Acrobatics (folding Balance and Tumble).
2) Each of these folded skills recognizes similarities, NOT in what they are--we know that Spotting in not the same as Listening, for instance. They are similar in HOW they're used in the game. Perception (Spot & Listen) is used for discerning one's environment; Stealth (Hide & Move Silently) is used for avoiding detection; Acrobatics (Balance & Tumble) is used for nimble movement; and Athletics (Jump & Climb) is used for scaling physical obstacles.
3) Jump and Climb are things everyone can do (as opposed to swimming), even if not very well.
4) Jump and Climb are STR-based; not DEX-based.Those are my thoughts.
Add me to the list of folks who like this idea as well. And it's no more of a violation to backward compatibility than folding Jump into Acrobatics and making it Dexterity based... :)
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Friend, I would be the last person to support micromanagement or pure simulationism, BUT, 3.5 is actually a pretty good simulationist and narrativist and gamist rule set. Frankly, the best ever designed for all three of these styles.
This is a more interesting conversation than the main topic and I entirely disagree with you. Runequest (version III, say, because I hate Glorantha) is a better game for all three, I would say and certainly better in the aggregate. D&D's big selling point is that it's popular and you can thus find a game: 3.x in addition has Open Gaming (allowing PFRPG to be printed) and approaches half-decent as a game.
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On a side note, with realism in mind, can we *please* stop swim being a skill that you can use untrained? Please? I'm a swimmmer. I've taught beginners how to swim. You can not swim untrained, period, end of story. Maybe removing that rediculous allowance will make people want to put at least *one* rank into swim.
In my home game, I did what several other people here seem to have done and created an Athletics skill by uncoupling Jump from Acrobatics and combining it with Climb.
I also removed Swim as a unique skill and partially rolled it into Athletics. I thought that there should be some mechanic for "knows how to swim/doesn't know how to swim" so I took a cue from the illiterate barbarian. A character is assumed not to know how to swim, but any character can spend 1 skill point to learn how.
Either way, a character rolls Athletics when swimming. A character that doesn't know how to swim can doggie paddle along but suffers a -10 penalty and can't "take 10". A character that does know how to swim rolls his normal, full Athletics skill.
Personally i keep Climbing and Swimming as separate skills.
I find it difficult to mix them with other skills, when i think about monkeys running in trees or sea elves diving in the ocean.
But i fold Balance, Escape Artist and Tumbling into Acrobatics (Dex).
And i fold Running (as per the feat) and Jumping into Athletics (Str).
Maybe that's unfair to put only two skills in Athletics but consider this :
Running as a skill can be priceless.
As a variant, i allow characters use Dex as key ability for Athletics. The same way i allow Dex for Climbing.
If you're going to combine swim with anything, combine it with fly. They're both 3d movement, just one is in a denser medium than the other.
Put me down as another person wanting to see Jump pulled out of Acrobatics and linked with Climb. It's a good way to give the fighter some love with skill compression as well and puts Jump back under Strength, where I believe it belongs.
I'm dubious about calling it Athletics though since that doesn't tell you a heck of a lot about what the skill actually does. I just can't think of anything better so far.
I'm a bit ambivalent about folding swim into it. I could go either way.
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I'm really in favor of the idea floated here that Jump should be un-folded from Acrobatics and folded into an Athletics skill with Climb.
Swim should remain its own skill, and I agree that it should be a trained-only skill; non-aquatic creatures are--well--like fish out of water if they're in water and never learned to swim.
Here's my reasoning for the folding of Jump and Climb.
1) It mirrors the ideas behind Perception (folding Spot & Listen), Stealth (folding Hide and Move Silently), and Acrobatics (folding Balance and Tumble).
2) Each of these folded skills recognizes similarities, NOT in what they are--we know that Spotting in not the same as Listening, for instance. They are similar in HOW they're used in the game. Perception (Spot & Listen) is used for discerning one's environment; Stealth (Hide & Move Silently) is used for avoiding detection; Acrobatics (Balance & Tumble) is used for nimble movement; and Athletics (Jump & Climb) is used for scaling physical obstacles.
3) Jump and Climb are things everyone can do (as opposed to swimming), even if not very well.
4) Jump and Climb are STR-based; not DEX-based.Those are my thoughts.
agree
Actually, I'm appalled that there's been as much skill folding as there has been -- such as Perception.My father, to take just one example, is a keen-eyed hunter, but he's almost deaf. Can you tell me that there is an overall 'Perception' that would represent his ability to perceive things? Because if you put him in a situation where he can see clearly, he'd be likely to notice hidden people or subtle indications before the average person would. Put him into an area of obscured visibility -- thick underbrush, darkness, enclosed spaces -- and he literally might be unaware of someone clomping around 30 feet away in hobnailed boots.
The game never penalized someone for being hard of hearing to that extent, but surely there could be someone with a +12 to Spot and +0 to Listen, or the other way around? As it is, everyone with Perception is like Superman -- "I've got X-Ray vision and super hearing too!"
Not my approach at all.
I can understand some dismay. After all, the separate skills allow for a more granular approach to the PC. On the other hand, from a gamist perspective, having to make 2 sets of opposed rolls (Hide vs Spot, Move Silently vs Listen) just to have the PC sneak through the underbrush past an enemy sentry sucks when the alternative is to have Stealth vs Perception and get things done in 1 opposed check. Too many checks favors the defender because that sneaking PC has to beat both opposed checks to succeed at his task, while the sentry only has to succeed at one to know something's up.
My group has been using "Athletics", "Acrobatics", "Perception", and "Stealth" long before 4E or Pathfinder, and we find it works great. It's actually one of the first things we changed with the Pathfinder skill list for our game.
In our games, Athletics includes Climb, Jump, and Swim (all Str based), and we have Acrobatics (Balance and Tumble), Perception (Spot/Listen), and Stealth (Hide / Move Silently). We've kept Concentration (sorry, but rolling into Spellcraft I feel was a very bad idea), and Linguistics (from Pathfinder, of course).
Really, we don't have a problem with it. I mean, it's not like having them separate is really that perfect. Most people have pointed out that Swim rarely gets used, and as a DM, if I want to put an underground lake in a dungeon, or have a fight under water, I really don't expect the players to devote tons of skill points to something that will honestly rarely occur. I've used Athletics in my tabletop group (about 3-6 players on average, but now and then others get to play too), and my online groups (OpenRPG is wonderful), and no one has issues with this (many have actually said how much they liked this).
I also agree that several of the "awesome" skills have been put together. Perception is a definite must have skill for a party, since you're just asking to get thrashed by anything that has the almighty Stealth skills. Balance and Tumble were already awesome skills (seriously, it's freakin' tumble, and having ranks in balance kept you from being flat-footed on uneven terrain, grease, and ice), and Pathfinder tosses in Jump as well (perhaps the most impressive Str based skill of the lot, since with ranks + ability + items it's not hard to JUMP your way faster than Climbing).
Also, for those who have a problem that the rules would allow for a merman to climb, perhaps you should think about how an Elephant or T-Rex can easily scale a tall cliff-face (Str bonus alone) since nothing in the rules prevents an Elephant from climbing up a towering rocky mountain better than a professional rock climber (even a 3rd level expert, 15 strength, +3 skill focus, only has a +11 to climb, with maxed ranks, while an Elephant has +10 without even trying).
For those who think swimming should be trained only, you can learn to swim in maybe a few hours good enough to not sink and be comfortable moving around. Most animals can swim despite never "learning", such as cats, dogs, snakes, and more. The rules really aren't there to be an all encompassing physics engine or reality simulator.
***WARNING THE FOLLOWING PERSONAL OPINION COMMENT IS NOT INTENDED TO BE OFFENSIVE - IF YOU ARE OFFENDED, PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO CHILL OUT, IT'S JUST A GAME***
To me, anyone that complains about climb / jump / swim being swung into Athletics, or even still the whole Climb / Swim thing being rolled into one skill, remind me of the people who argue that female characters should get a penalty to strength due to muscle mass differences, and try to equate real life with a world where people throw fireballs from their fingertips and by 5th level any fighter break Olympic jumping records without breaking a sweat, while piously focused monks can drink battery acid without even an upset stomach.
They're already ignoring the fact stuff "doesn't work just right" in the system without an Athletics skill, and unwilling to improve the value of the system by going with the alternative.
However, I'm not saying it will be changed. Anything that doesn't I can just modify for my groups when I run (since we don't play in any RPGA style events or anything). But, when I do run those, our party's ferocious warriors of legend will jump from a cave opening, climb the ropes of a ship, and then dive into the water to save the drowning noble patron, while training her guard dog, surviving in the wilderness, and riding her warhorse in battle.
Peace,
Ashiel
I prefer athletics as skill to swim, run, climb or do anthing but then I'm kind of used to that from other games like World of Darkness. I think if you were to combine swim and climb you'd have add fly as well. Personally I think the Fly skill is kind of silly. So combining skills into athletics makes sense to me.
Now if PF doesn't do that no big deal I'll use it how ever it the rule states. It's not like it has to be the same other games out there.
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I'm really in favor of the idea floated here that Jump should be un-folded from Acrobatics and folded into an Athletics skill with Climb.
Swim should remain its own skill, and I agree that it should be a trained-only skill; non-aquatic creatures are--well--like fish out of water if they're in water and never learned to swim.
Here's my reasoning for the folding of Jump and Climb.
1) It mirrors the ideas behind Perception (folding Spot & Listen), Stealth (folding Hide and Move Silently), and Acrobatics (folding Balance and Tumble).
2) Each of these folded skills recognizes similarities, NOT in what they are--we know that Spotting in not the same as Listening, for instance. They are similar in HOW they're used in the game. Perception (Spot & Listen) is used for discerning one's environment; Stealth (Hide & Move Silently) is used for avoiding detection; Acrobatics (Balance & Tumble) is used for nimble movement; and Athletics (Jump & Climb) is used for scaling physical obstacles.
3) Jump and Climb are things everyone can do (as opposed to swimming), even if not very well.
4) Jump and Climb are STR-based; not DEX-based.Those are my thoughts.
notch another vote for "yes"
I think swimming should be under an athletics skill as swimming is an athletic ability. Of course not every athlete knows how to swim but that could be handled simply by deciding if you know how to swim. It's not like learning to swim is hard to do. Since everyone can swim anyways by making a basic check using strength why not just have it covered by athletics. I mean you can take 10 in calm water to swim with no skill as long as you don't have negative strength modifier at that point you'd be forced to roll.
I don't have much to contribute, except to agree with the OP. I personally prefer more skills to fewer, but given Perception and Acrobatics, Athletics is logically consistent.
Well, taste, listen, smell, touch, and spot are all different modes of perception, and they have been combined in one skill. Why different modes of movement would be different ?
Because the skill in all those isn't in actually seeing/hearing/etc whatever, it's how you process what you detect and the conclusions you draw from that. Failing a spot check doesn't necessarily mean that you don't see whatever it is, it just means you don't realize what you see. As such, it's really the exact same process for all the senses.
Climb and Swim, on the other hand, are all completely different from each other. They require completely different skills. For a climber, you have to have good upper body strength and the knowledge of how to distribute your weight and use your tools properly. For a swimmer, you need better lower body strength and the knowledge of how to minimize the exertion of pulling your body through the water and how to pace yourself. There's really nothing at all comparable about them.
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I have supported this idea from the start. Consolidation of Climb and Jump makes sense for exactly the reasons noted by Malachi Tarchannen above (well presented!)
I have issue with the "+2/+2" feats (though the Beta upgrades make them better then before) and feel they are a thing of the past. With all the consolidation of skills in PF RPG, I think that Skill Focus covers that quite well enough.
Now if we could just get back Concentration (it's not just for Wizards!) and fold Spellcraft into Knowledge: Arcana and Knowledge: Religon (depending on Arcane amgic or Divine magic), I think the skill chapter would be damn near perfect!
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Acrobatics: Balance, Jump, Tumble (DEX)
Athletics: Climb, Jump, Swim (STR)
There you go: one DEX-based physical stat, and one STR-based physical stat. This is long overdue, and would solve the universal conundrum as to why a strong, long-legged northern barbarian can't jump anymore (aside from the stereotype that white men can't jump... :P)
I would like swim not to be able to be used untrained
Also I will say it once more it does not belong with climb.
CLimb jump sure but not swim
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The fact that listen and spot were often used together has nothing to do if they are related or not. Is a good climber a good swimmer too ? Not necessarily. Is a good listener a good spotter ? Not necessarily either.
You combine them not for realism but for easier ruling.Attack rolls and damage rolls are almost always used together. Do they need to be combine for that reason ? Of course not.
Actually the ears and eyes are often used together, you hear something, you immediately turn toward the noise and focus you rvision on that area.
Touch and sight are actually similar as there are optic nears in your fingertips.
smell and taste are linked, as if you have no sense of smell you also lose your sense of smell...ever notice how some animals open their mouthes and then sniff the air? so they can taste the air...in addition to smelling it...
erm, to look from a fluff perspective instead of easier mechanics, durring the setting, typically of Medieval accentuation, most did not know how to swim, that included quite a few from your lowly street commoner to your Highborn Nobles, and in between, save from your Farmers who often had the waterholes/ye old swimmin hole, and ofttimes even only a few of them knew how to, unless you grew up on a river or portside town would you know how to swim.
So from fluff/flavor perspective I would have to decline on adding in swim as an everyman's should have skill, but however from an Easier Mechanic based view, Id clump Jumping and Swimming in together, both are using the same muscle variations and rhythms to take to movement. Climb id leave separately, it uses of course some of the same muscles, but is dispersing weight and the knowledge of doing so to be good at it takes time and practice.
I know for a fact I used to be able to climb up walls with lil grooves and trees when I was younger, but with my current extra weight and not setting foot in a tree in probably 15 years, Im quite sure Id end up hurting myself a lil. But throw me in water or tell me to jump 5 feet over or a few feet up and I could still do something a lil flashy.
Actually the ears and eyes are often used together, you hear something, you immediately turn toward the noise and focus you rvision on that area.Touch and sight are actually similar as there are optic nears in your fingertips.
smell and taste are linked, as if you have no sense of smell you also lose your sense of smell...ever notice how some animals open their mouthes and then sniff the air? so they can taste the air...in addition to smelling it...
A person who is blind but not deaf can still hear fine (in fact, theres a myth that someone who is blind might even have a better sense of hearing (or smell in some cases) than a normal person)
Likewise, being deaf doesn't impart on vision at all.
Yet the skill used to determine hearing things and other skills used to determine seeing (spot/listen) were still combined.
And it's very easy to group climbing and swim together, both skills revolve around travling across a surface (water/somthing not horizontal). Both skills can be used easily, but are done better by those in better physical conditions. Both limit the mobilty of the characters, even if said characters just happen to be "still" whilst climbing a cliff-face or in water.
Combining them not only makes both skills more appealing, it also opens the door to use the skill for other activities which are hard to place in other areas of the game, such as a check to see which characters might win in a race (which can't be done via normal mechanics since all meduim humaniods seem to move 30ft unless wearing armour).
Dating myself here, but we're basically debating Fonzie and the Shark.
Fonzie had awesome levels of Ride (motorcycle) but zero levels in Waterskiing. In the world of real life, the awesome motorcycle rider would have wiped out on his skis and been eaten by the shark.
However, in the fantasyland of the Happy Days roleplaying game, Ride (motorcycle) and Waterskiing were obviously both rolled in under Athletics, and so Fonzie used his awesome levels of Athletics and jumped the shark.
From a realism perspective, all sorts of skills should be separate, but from a game mechanics perspective, this causes skills bloat and trouble for characters who have their skills spread out all over the map.
As a suggestion, roll all athletic skills into Athletics, but give characters an occasional Exotic Sporting Goods Non-Proficiency Penalty somewhere in the neighborhood of -2 to -5 if it's the first time they've ever strapped on ice skates or picked up a jailai stick.
In gameplay, rolling Perception for everything has really started to bore me. Holding up Perception as a reason to roll more skills together doesn't sway me. If anything, it's an example of why NOT to combine climb and swim.
I don't like lumping different ability score skills together overall (jump into acrobatics, search into perception).
One idea to consider is to split Perception into two types... proactive Perception (Search, tasting things on purpose, smelling things to discover ingredients, etc) based on Intelligence (logical and methodical), and reactive Perception (Spot/Listen, tasting poison as you ingest it, smelling the poison gas as it enters the room).
It also makes for easier adjudication.. should a person trying to look for something in the distance use Spot? Or Search (since he's intentional looking for it)... but Spot has better rules for distance, and is more visually oriented, etc.
Now you can just say "Proactive Perception (visual)".
This would make more sense, and split up skill usage a bit in play.
It would also mean the Fighter could be a good Sentry without necessarily stepping on the trap finding skills of the Rogue.
One idea to consider is to split Perception into two types...
Investigate INT
Notice WIS|
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Ok... fighters don't have Acrobatics, so they can't jump anymore. This needs to be fixed. I don't know how, but fighters need to jump!!
One fix could be "Athletics", which would regroup climb, swim and jump skills from 3.5 (all STR-based). You keep Acrobatics the way it is. That way a PC has the option to use either STR (athletics) or DEX (acrobatics) to make jump checks.
Thoughts?
Ok... fighters don't have Acrobatics, so they can't jump anymore. This needs to be fixed. I don't know how, but fighters need to jump!!
One fix could be "Athletics", which would regroup climb, swim and jump skills from 3.5 (all STR-based). You keep Acrobatics the way it is. That way a PC has the option to use either STR (athletics) or DEX (acrobatics) to make jump checks.
Thoughts?
That's easy: Athletics is "Jump!" whereas Acrobatics is "Land!"
If the rogue is trying to leap roof to roof, the Athletics check is to see whether he clears the gap or plunges to the street below.
If he succeeds in the leap, the Acrobatics check sees whether he keeps his balance on the slick slates or skates down them and plummets to the aforementioned street.
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Well.. thin ninjas can jump as far as beefy wrestlers methinks.. if your muscles are proportional to your mass, the ninja can use speed and agility (DEX) to clear the gap, while the beefy wrestler will probably just power over the gap with a nice big "STOMP!" off the edge (STR)
Keeping Acrobatics to way it is shouldn't pose a problem, but there needs to be a STR-based rule to allow big blond haired barbarians running in the tundra to jump over big cracks in the ice... :)
Well.. thin ninjas can jump as far as beefy wrestlers methinks.. if your muscles are proportional to your mass, the ninja can use speed and agility (DEX) to clear the gap, while the beefy wrestler will probably just power over the gap with a nice big "STOMP!" off the edge (STR)
Keeping Acrobatics to way it is shouldn't pose a problem, but there needs to be a STR-based rule to allow big blond haired barbarians running in the tundra to jump over big cracks in the ice... :)
Have you looked at the physiques of male Olympic gymnasts vs. male Olympic wrestlers? There's an awful lot of similarity there and an awful lot of serious musculature.
The big blond barbarian will probably have no trouble jumping the crack in the ice, but he'll probably slip and fall on his ass on the other side if his player has made Dex his dump stat.