Currently the wording on Prestige Class qualifications for Eldritch Knight and Arcane Tricksters has their qualifications as "Casts 3rd Level Arcane Spell". This puts the Sorcerer and the Bard at a disadvantage for qualifying for prestige classes putting them a level or two behind the wizard in qualifying for these classes.
Can we get this changed to 5 levels in an arcane casting class?
I'd prefer caster level 5. In the future, there could be classes that grant arcane casting but not at full caster level, such as the ranger and paladin are for divine casting now.
Well the reason I suggested "5 levels in an arcane class" instead of using the catch phrase Caster Level is because there are feats that advance caster level.
I'm going to plug another thread as a possible solution to this issue.
In this thread they talk about a solution which involves lowering the caster level but using BAB to limit how early you can enter a class. I think it's a pretty elegant solution and can be adapted for any Prestige class fairly easily.
I just want to point out that the use of BAB as a solution to Eldritch Knight requirements is "elegant" for that class because BAB is the other primary resource lost in the process of qualifying for the class (along with at least two caster levels).
I don't think it works quite the same for Arcane Trickster - that class already uses two qualifiers (spell/caster level and sneak attack dice). I personally feel that is appropriate, since it gives 100% casting improvement and sneak attack improvement, where Eldritch Knight gives 90% casting improvement and 60% feats.
I just want to point out that the use of BAB as a solution to Eldritch Knight requirements is "elegant" for that class because BAB is the other primary resource lost in the process of qualifying for the class (along with at least two caster levels).
I don't think it works quite the same for Arcane Trickster - that class already uses two qualifiers (spell/caster level and sneak attack dice). I personally feel that is appropriate, since it gives 100% casting improvement and sneak attack improvement, where Eldritch Knight gives 90% casting improvement and 60% feats.
That's an interesting thought. It might make more sense to have the prereq be 6 ranks in spellcraft, a rogue talent, and the ability to cast a second level arcane spell. Then Arcane Tricksters could enter the class with just 2 caster levels lost which is in line with Eldritch Knight.
The nice thing about using BAB is that it allows the bard to enter the class a little lower level. Considering the bards poor spell progression I think that's fair.
Considering the bards poor spell progression I think that's fair.
If spell progression was the ONLY class feature involved in balancing classes, then you would be correct. However, bards and sorcerers have benefits other than just how quickly they gain access to 3rd level spells.
Bards have a higher BAB, more skills, can cast spells in light armor without using a feat (and a free/swift action), have proficiency with whips, and Bardic Music (which, while not tremendously powerful, can still be useful at higher levels; i.e., Inspire Greatness by a bard 9/fighter 1/eldritch knight 10 self-buffing for combat). Sorcerers gain more spells per day and don't need to worry about preparing the "correct" spells for a given adventure (as long as a spell is among their spells known, they can cast it at a moment's notice; sorcerer vs. wizard in 3.x has always been about immediate vs. potential utility/versatility).
Considering the bards poor spell progression I think that's fair.If spell progression was the ONLY class feature involved in balancing classes, then you would be correct. However, bards and sorcerers have benefits other than just how quickly they gain access to 3rd level spells.
Bards have a higher BAB, more skills, can cast spells in light armor without using a feat (and a free/swift action), have proficiency with whips, and Bardic Music (which, while not tremendously powerful, can still be useful at higher levels; i.e., Inspire Greatness by a bard 9/fighter 1/eldritch knight 10 self-buffing for combat). Sorcerers gain more spells per day and don't need to worry about preparing the "correct" spells for a given adventure (as long as a spell is among their spells known, they can cast it at a moment's notice; sorcerer vs. wizard in 3.x has always been about immediate vs. potential utility/versatility).
The only one of the class features that you mention that continues to progress while you are in the PrC is spell progression.
That's an interesting thought. It might make more sense to have the prereq be 6 ranks in spellcraft, a rogue talent, and the ability to cast a second level arcane spell. Then Arcane Tricksters could enter the class with just 2 caster levels lost which is in line with Eldritch Knight.
The only snag I see is that some existing characters would no longer qualify, e.g. a rogue 1/wizard 5/assassin 1/arcane trickster would no longer be possible.
I would suggest just reducing the requirement from level 3 spells to level 2 spells. But that's just me.
Considering the bards poor spell progression I think that's fair.If spell progression was the ONLY class feature involved in balancing classes, then you would be correct. However, bards and sorcerers have benefits other than just how quickly they gain access to 3rd level spells.
Bards have a higher BAB, more skills, can cast spells in light armor without using a feat (and a free/swift action), have proficiency with whips, and Bardic Music (which, while not tremendously powerful, can still be useful at higher levels; i.e., Inspire Greatness by a bard 9/fighter 1/eldritch knight 10 self-buffing for combat). Sorcerers gain more spells per day and don't need to worry about preparing the "correct" spells for a given adventure (as long as a spell is among their spells known, they can cast it at a moment's notice; sorcerer vs. wizard in 3.x has always been about immediate vs. potential utility/versatility).
The only one of the class features that you mention that continues to progress while you are in the PrC is spell progression.
They may no longer progress, but they aren't lost, either. A bard makes a better physical combat oriented eldritch knight than either a sorcerer or a wizard: spell use in light armor, +17 BAB at 20th level (+18 with bard 8/fighter 2 instead of bard 9/fighter 1), better hit points, etc. A bard also makes a better skill-focused arcane trickster with 6 + Int mod skill points. A sorcerer's spell use is potentially less versatile than a wizard, but the sorcerer doesn't have to worry about preparing the "right" spells (in the "right" amounts) for each given day of adventuring. Also, the number of spell slots available to a sorcerer mean that they have more "staying power" over the course of an adventuring day. Basically, the one class level delay in gaining each spell level balances the immediate versatility and higher number of spells cast. It also addresses the fluff differences between sorcerers and wizards: wizards study and understand arcane magic at a deeper level than sorcerers, therefore they can gain more powerful spells slightly quicker.