[wizard] Universalist metamagic too powerful?


Classes: Sorcerer and Wizard

Silver Crusade

His arcane bond hardly makes him a spontaneous spellcaster. Once per day, he can pull a rabbit out of a hat if it's needed, no more. It's very useful, but the once per day limitation is a valid balancing factor

One of the things I think needs to be specified, I as a GM, wouldn't allow the spells to go above a level you could normally cast. No empowered maximized meteor swarms(that would be a 14th level spell) in my campaign. And no quickened spells above fifth level. I'm not sure how this will play out in the end as the universalist does seem extremely attractive over specialists. If that was specified I think it would do a lot to make this spell seem viable.

The Exchange

Tried to delete this thread as it popped up twice, but you'd already posted to it. Message boards were doing funky things for me earlier.

Here's my original post so yours doesn't look strange:

Sorry if this has been covered in another thread, couldn't find it.

My group have now hit level 16 in the age of worms. The wizard in the group is a univeraslist who now has a potential 8 points to spend spontaneously converting spells to metamagic without spell slot expense thanks to his 8th level universalist feature.

This makes his caster all sorts of powerful for no cost.

I like metamagic, but I always felt the slot cost for metamagic was really nicely balanced. Wizards could keep slots open if they needed to, or prep ahead if they want those spells cast.

I understand wizards are menat to be specialists in catering for all occasions, but in our game this has led to a real power shift for the wizard. His statement to me was "Why would you bother taking anything else?"

Now, that's his opinion, I can think of all sorts of reasons not to take universalist, but combine this feature with the alternate to familiar (soulbond item?? can't remember name) and now he's a spontaneous caster almost.

As DM I've found it has removed a vital limitation to a powerful mechanic that I certainly felt aided game balance. For most game sessions, he's not going to run out of spells and he gets to use metmagic every encounter at no cost to spell slots.

Case in point, Quicken spell for your highest spell, then cast it again. It's cost you only one spell slot of your highest level spell to do this, and you may have just wiped a complete encounter.

Anyone else thinking this?

I'd like to see it changed so they can cast metamagic at a reduced cost, but certainy not "no cost". Maybe it costs one slot less. This measn some metamagic feats will still be free but the big ones wont be.

Cheers

The Exchange

SunshineGrrrl wrote:

His arcane bond hardly makes him a spontaneous spellcaster. Once per day, he can pull a rabbit out of a hat if it's needed, no more. It's very useful, but the once per day limitation is a valid balancing factor

One of the things I think needs to be specified, I as a GM, wouldn't allow the spells to go above a level you could normally cast. No empowered maximized meteor swarms(that would be a 14th level spell) in my campaign. And no quickened spells above fifth level. I'm not sure how this will play out in the end as the universalist does seem extremely attractive over specialists. If that was specified I think it would do a lot to make this spell seem viable.

Yeah, I may have been over reacting when i said spontaneous caster. However I'm getting the feeling wizards are needing less and less of the forward planning that limited them so much in the past. This might be the designers intentions, but some of it seems to go too far.

I like your idea better than mine btw. Nothing above what they could normally metamagic to.

cheers


Agreed. Universalists completely overshadow specialists.
They have bonus spells too now, and the best powers.
One of my player planned to be a specialist, when I told him about the changes on the universalist, he quickly change his mind too.
I think that the metamagic mastery should be limited as least for spells the wizard can cast as per the standard rules (can't cast a maximized fireball if he can't cast a 6th level spell).
The variant rule of Unearthed Arcana was good for this.

Silver Crusade

Yeah. I think they wanted to have that one in there just for emergencies. It's very frustrating to have a lot of fire spells prepared and then suddenly find yourself in a room with a red dragon. You can memorize all force spells, but that's boring and doesn't lead to interesting characters. I do hope they get rid of extra spells for universalists which I think they will do something with. But, I won't really go into that here as it's beyond the scope. I think this particular power needs a real clarification on this. I mean it seems like that was the intention to me, but it is very unclear about that if it is.

Basically, the flavor of the wizard should give them something they can already do, but do it a little differently or a little better. Or give them bonuses. Just being able to pull out a quickened empowered maximized meteor swarm, even once a day is right out.


That's not even the beginning of the horror that is universalist. Not until combining his free metamagic with non-core metamagic feats and metamagic cost reducers can you understant the true, awe-inspiring extent of his power. Firing an Empowered, Split Ray, Chain Enervation without any actual increase at spell slot? No problem. Sure, you can't do it more than 1-2 times per day before epic, but that's still one-two encounters you can solve all by itself and with little spell expenditure.

Liberty's Edge

selios wrote:
I think that the metamagic mastery should be limited as least for spells the wizard can cast as per the standard rules (can't cast a maximized fireball if he can't cast a 6th level spell).

Absolutely.

Magic of Faerun had a PrC called incantatrix with an ability similar to Metamagic Mastery, and WotC issued an official errata along these lines. (And I've seen a lot of gripes that the Divine Metamagic feat from CD should be similarly limited.)


SunshineGrrrl wrote:

Yeah. I think they wanted to have that one in there just for emergencies. It's very frustrating to have a lot of fire spells prepared and then suddenly find yourself in a room with a red dragon. You can memorize all force spells, but that's boring and doesn't lead to interesting characters. I do hope they get rid of extra spells for universalists which I think they will do something with. But, I won't really go into that here as it's beyond the scope. I think this particular power needs a real clarification on this. I mean it seems like that was the intention to me, but it is very unclear about that if it is.

Basically, the flavor of the wizard should give them something they can already do, but do it a little differently or a little better. Or give them bonuses. Just being able to pull out a quickened empowered maximized meteor swarm, even once a day is right out.

How on earth were they casting above their spell level? By scroll,

shudder, if that went wrong.


FatR wrote:
That's not even the beginning of the horror that is universalist. Not until combining his free metamagic with non-core metamagic feats and metamagic cost reducers can you understant the true, awe-inspiring extent of his power. Firing an Empowered, Split Ray, Chain Enervation without any actual increase at spell slot? No problem. Sure, you can't do it more than 1-2 times per day before epic, but that's still one-two encounters you can solve all by itself and with little spell expenditure.

What non-core metamagic feats and cost reducers, and if that one or

two times don't work, you are up the creek without a paddle. My
wizard has died twice in testing because she relied on other players
to shield, if I had use the spells to protect myself instead of
assist party members I would be better off. BUT, that being said
Universal does NOT get the specialist bonus that the other schools
get that is the balance factor,most PCs that I know thing that
specializing is the way to go, but I like the versiaty, so, it does
balance.


Yeah how did we miss that? I mean the universalist doesn't get a tiny bump on damage, or some such and that completely balances out the fact that after eigthth level he can cast spells with metamagic effects spontaneously at will up to a number of metamagic levels equal to half his class level. Of course that's balanced. Doesn't even step on the sorcerer's toes or anything, you know, being that the sorcerer being the spontaneous caster.

/sarcasm

No seriously I'm playing an universalist wizard right now in RoTR and being able to just choose a spell and metamagic it when I need to is absolutely great.

Nothing says in your face to the melees then hitting them with a cone of cold and then quickening a Resilient sphere to drop on yourself so they can't even hit you back.

The only thing better is when you moon them in the next round.


I think the meta magic ability isn't too bad as they can use it only a few times a day.


FatR wrote:
That's not even the beginning of the horror that is universalist. Not until combining his free metamagic with non-core metamagic feats and metamagic cost reducers can you understant the true, awe-inspiring extent of his power. Firing an Empowered, Split Ray, Chain Enervation without any actual increase at spell slot? No problem. Sure, you can't do it more than 1-2 times per day before epic, but that's still one-two encounters you can solve all by itself and with little spell expenditure.

You have to have the feats before you can use them and I do NOT know

of any one who would only get metamagic feats, so, you can use them
6 times at 12 level, however if you use two on one spell, that cuts
it down or if it rises the level of the spell, it takes the number
down by 2. I know people complaining about, this, but WHAT
ARE Specialist giving up? In 3.5 they could't get prohibited school
spells, here they can, granted they do not get the bonuses for them,
but, they can use them, AND with their school spells they get the
specialist bonus, so what is the complaint, the specialist get a bonus
that increases with level, they get school powers, most of which are
pretty good, and they get to use any spells they want, so, what is the beef? Most of the people I know select a school because of the bonus,
the Universal gets to choose spells from any school, but no bonuses
period. So, I ask again what the balance for the specialist?


Abraham spalding wrote:


The only thing better is when you moon them in the next round.

Ha! Bet you won't do that in our RL game!

(It would be awesome though)


The thing that's a bit funny here is that, were it not for the universalist being so ridiculously amazing, we would all be commenting on how overpowered the specialists are. Conjuration and Illusion get some -great- abilities.

-Cross

The Exchange

I'm not commenting on the other specialist areas purely because I havn't seen them in play. While conjecture is great, I've seen too many arguments start as a consequence so I'll just stick with what I've seen in game play.

The only real issue I have with the Universalist at this stage in my Level 16 campaign is the overabuse of instant metamagic by the wizard.

The suggestion earlier to reword it so you can't use this ability to metamagic ABOVE your spell level is a good one. You still get the spontaneous aspect but it does stop the ridicuous combinations of sells I'm seeing (particularly he quicken combo of best spell then best spell again).

In otherwords, introduce spontaneity but keep the standard metamagic limitations in place in terms of how much metmagic to apply to a spell based on spell slot level available to you.

Cheers


Crosswind wrote:

The thing that's a bit funny here is that, were it not for the universalist being so ridiculously amazing, we would all be commenting on how overpowered the specialists are. Conjuration and Illusion get some -great- abilities.

-Cross

True, true.. I like the cojurer the best. Think about it, a free ac bonus equal to 1+1/per every two caster levels. Which means in theory you could give it (or any specialist bonus for that matter) a little boost with a Varisian Tattoo.

Yaeh casters!


FatR wrote:
That's not even the beginning of the horror that is universalist. Not until combining his free metamagic with non-core metamagic feats and metamagic cost reducers can you understant the true, awe-inspiring extent of his power. Firing an Empowered, Split Ray, Chain Enervation without any actual increase at spell slot? No problem. Sure, you can't do it more than 1-2 times per day before epic, but that's still one-two encounters you can solve all by itself and with little spell expenditure.

I believe there is a bit of a issue that you are not seeing. The 8th level ability states:

"You can apply any ONE metamagic feat that you KNOW to a spell you are
about to cast."

If you go with this and not allow a second metamagic to be added with this ability it should limit the ability enough not to cause a problem. Mind you it still might cause a problem to have a Meteor Swarm followed by a Quickened (with ability) Meteor Swarm. But my group is not that high of level to be clicking off 2 Meteor Swarms. So the limitation of no higher that you can cast might still be needed.


metamagic mastery is over the top. If the bonus spells are kept to keep the incentive to stick with the base class (design key point), then this ability must be scaled down.

People advocate limiting the modified spell level to your maximum able-to-cast spell level. Nice, but it's still pretty good, and better as a capstone ability.

Otherwise, put the modified level of the spell to be maximum your able-to-cast spell level minus 1 or 2.

Heck, why not go the Ultimate Magus route, limit the use of this ability on spells that are 1/3 of your class level. Still applying the modified spell level rule.

Break down of this last suggestion:

Wiz 9, spell level known 5. Can't maximize or quicken a fireball(brings modified spell level too high), but can empower it.

Wiz 13, spell level known 7. Can now maximize said fireball, or empower a wall of fire. But can't Silent or still disintegrate(base spell lev. too high for the ability).

Wiz 15, spell level known 8. Can quicken any 4th level and under. Can apply most metamagics to 5th level and under.

Wiz 18, max power for this ability. Can apply almost any metamagics to spell levels up to 6, can quicken up to 5th (brings it to 9th level equivalent)

This thing might need some rewording, but this double limitation is nice from a balance point of view. Without restriction, this ability is simply far too good to pass.

my2cp


Jellyfulfish wrote:

metamagic mastery is over the top. If the bonus spells are kept to keep the incentive to stick with the base class (design key point), then this ability must be scaled down.

People advocate limiting the modified spell level to your maximum able-to-cast spell level. Nice, but it's still pretty good, and better as a capstone ability.

Otherwise, put the modified level of the spell to be maximum your able-to-cast spell level minus 1 or 2.

Heck, why not go the Ultimate Magus route, limit the use of this ability on spells that are 1/3 of your class level. Still applying the modified spell level rule.

Break down of this last suggestion:

Wiz 9, spell level known 5. Can't maximize or quicken a fireball(brings modified spell level too high), but can empower it.

Wiz 13, spell level known 7. Can now maximize said fireball, or empower a wall of fire. But can't Silent or still disintegrate(base spell lev. too high for the ability).

Wiz 15, spell level known 8. Can quicken any 4th level and under. Can apply most metamagics to 5th level and under.

Wiz 18, max power for this ability. Can apply almost any metamagics to spell levels up to 6, can quicken up to 5th (brings it to 9th level equivalent)

This thing might need some rewording, but this double limitation is nice from a balance point of view. Without restriction, this ability is simply far too good to pass.

my2cp

I can only agree with this. Otherwise, the frightful "Divine Metamagic Syndrome" would strike us again...


Simple rules are generally the best rules.

For that reason, I agree that if it must be changed, that it should be where you can't elevate the spell past the level you could normally cast. (so no quickening Meteor swarm and all that fun jazz.. at least not until epic, and such).
It's simple, easy to understand, and averts much of the problem with it.

-S


Selgard wrote:

Simple rules are generally the best rules.

True. Still, I think it's still too good compared to the specialists, even with the "can't bring the modified spell level above the spell level you could normaly cast".

And I'd be very biased was I to say to boost the specialists to make up for it (I love the specialist wizs). No, it's just too much. Give them +1DC all schools at 8th, and this at 20. It would still make universalists very desirable.

Liberty's Edge

James Hunnicutt wrote:
selios wrote:
I think that the metamagic mastery should be limited as least for spells the wizard can cast as per the standard rules (can't cast a maximized fireball if he can't cast a 6th level spell).

Absolutely.

Magic of Faerun had a PrC called incantatrix with an ability similar to Metamagic Mastery, and WotC issued an official errata along these lines. (And I've seen a lot of gripes that the Divine Metamagic feat from CD should be similarly limited.)

Yeah, Twin-spelled/zmaximized/Split Ray modified Ray of Enfeeblement.

No Save, Had a 40 Strength? Now it's 1
Now that does require a Maximized metamagic rod but how hard is that to get for a 17th level Wizard?

I also had 3 of my players when reading the Beta say they would not play anything else but a generalist.


Etales wrote:
James Hunnicutt wrote:
selios wrote:
I think that the metamagic mastery should be limited as least for spells the wizard can cast as per the standard rules (can't cast a maximized fireball if he can't cast a 6th level spell).

Absolutely.

Magic of Faerun had a PrC called incantatrix with an ability similar to Metamagic Mastery, and WotC issued an official errata along these lines. (And I've seen a lot of gripes that the Divine Metamagic feat from CD should be similarly limited.)

Yeah, Twin-spelled/zmaximized/Split Ray modified Ray of Enfeeblement.

No Save, Had a 40 Strength? Now it's 1
Now that does require a Maximized metamagic rod but how hard is that to get for a 17th level Wizard?

I also had 3 of my players when reading the Beta say they would not play anything else but a generalist.

IRC the twin and split doesn't do anything, because only the largest penalty applies. In this case its going to be 11 points.

Most issues are due to basic rule misunderstandings.


I've found the ability to spontaneously use metamagic without cost to be extremely beneficial. While I can only use it to quicken 1 spell at 8th level, that one spell has been a life saver for many people over and over again. Also even when I don't use it that way having a few spells silenced or stilled before combat means that if I'm paralyzed I can still have my second highest level spells going off without me having to be able to do anything other than take an action (since they already have one metamagic I just use my mastery to apply the other, caveat: DM requires both since you can't move your mouth to make words when paralysised).


Peter Stewart wrote:

IRC the twin and split doesn't do anything, because only the largest penalty applies. In this case its going to be 11 points.

You are absolutely right, the Ray of Enfeeblement spell doesn't make Abiity Damage, it does give a PENALTY to the ability... and, since the same spell cannot give the same penalty twice, only the best one applies (at best, the duration time would reset).

But I repeat myself when I say that Metamagic Mastery SHOULD NOT allow a Wizard to cast a spell of a higher level than those he can normally cast (no Quickened Fireballs at 9th level, at best a Quickened Magic Missile = 5th level spell).


The Wraith wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:

IRC the twin and split doesn't do anything, because only the largest penalty applies. In this case its going to be 11 points.

You are absolutely right, the Ray of Enfeeblement spell doesn't make Abiity Damage, it does give a PENALTY to the ability... and, since the same spell cannot give the same penalty twice, only the best one applies (at best, the duration time would reset).

But I repeat myself when I say that Metamagic Mastery SHOULD NOT allow a Wizard to cast a spell of a higher level than those he can normally cast (no Quickened Fireballs at 9th level, at best a Quickened Magic Missile = 5th level spell).

What's wrong with a quickened fireball at level 8? oooo boy, 20 damage as a swift action. Run for the hills. Even worse maximized for 42 damage! That's some awesome power right there...

You're ignoring the fact that at that level you're investing a feat in the metamagic you won't use for another 3-6 levels anyway to have one trick a day. Metamagic Mastery is no different then the Sudden metamagic feats from Complete Arcane - and no more imbalance.


Peter Stewart wrote:

What's wrong with a quickened fireball at level 8? oooo boy, 20 damage as a swift action. Run for the hills. Even worse maximized for 42 damage! That's some awesome power right there...

Well, it's not only that.

It's also a 9th level Wizard with Mind Fog + Quickened Confusion (or an 8th level Wizard with Confusion + Quickened Black Tentacles) = Total Party Wipeout in a single round
Plus, let's not forget this: an Evoker (the 'supposedly' damage-specialist wizard) cannot do a Quickened Fireball or an Empowered Fireball at 8th level (nor any other kind of characters, by the way...)

A Quickened spell is not 'over the top' by itself, it's the level on which you gain it that makes the difference.

I've seen my share of Metamagic Spells 'over the top' with a 3.5 Cleric with Empower Spell and Divine Metamagic; that character burned Turn Undead attempt like there was no tomorrow (he took Extra Turning too) and his Flame Strike was really powerful (9d6 x 1,5 at 9th level twice or thrice a day is damaging, granted - more than any kind of caster can do at that same level - , and this is not even the worst possible scenario, since damaging spells are not the worst thing with these combos).

Of course, this comes from my personal experience, but my hope is that the Generalist do not incur in the same 'bear-trap' that Divine Metamagic was in 3.5 (for example).

An Evoker that can Maximize/Empower/Quicken some of his damaging spells over the spell-level cap? This is something (IMHO) that could be done to give that Specialist some love.
A Generalist that can bend those rules with ALL kind of spells ? This is something (again, IMHO) too much unbalanced.
Just my 2c, anyway.

Scarab Sages

Torsin wrote:
My wizard has died twice in testing because she relied on other players to shield, if I had use the spells to protect myself instead of assist party members I would be better off.

Maybe, but that's been an aspect of the game in every edition.

What does this have to do with this thread?
It was your decision not to cast defensive spells, no-one else is to blame.

How does giving you the additional ability to spontaneously apply free metamagic effects make your wizard more fragile than before?
Are you blaming your PC's deaths on the fact that he became more versatile?

Metamagic can be applied to defensive and utility spells, too, you know. And will more often make the difference between life or death, than an extra 2hp/die on a Maximised or Empowered Fireball, especially when the DM reveals that the horde of goons you hoped to fry all have Evasion (groan).
Silent Dispel Magic will even the odds, when enemy clerics cast Silence.
Silent Dimension Door gets you to a safe distance, buying time to shake off a Hold Person.
Still Fire Shield can get you out of a surprise grapple.
And so on.

What stopped you protecting yourself? If it's that the party had a defensive plan, then the other PCs forgot/ignored it, then that's a matter between you and the other players.

I don't mean to pick on you or anything, but these abilities seriously raise the power level of the wizard PCs. But no power-creep will ever prevent PCs dying as a result of poor cooperation and bad decisions.
The day when players can beat the adventures regardless of their choices is the day the game becomes pointless.


The Wraith wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:

What's wrong with a quickened fireball at level 8? oooo boy, 20 damage as a swift action. Run for the hills. Even worse maximized for 42 damage! That's some awesome power right there...

Well, it's not only that.

It's also a 9th level Wizard with Mind Fog + Quickened Confusion (or an 8th level Wizard with Confusion + Quickened Black Tentacles) = Total Party Wipeout in a single round
Plus, let's not forget this: an Evoker (the 'supposedly' damage-specialist wizard) cannot do a Quickened Fireball or an Empowered Fireball at 8th level (nor any other kind of characters, by the way...)

A Quickened spell is not 'over the top' by itself, it's the level on which you gain it that makes the difference.

I've seen my share of Metamagic Spells 'over the top' with a 3.5 Cleric with Empower Spell and Divine Metamagic; that character burned Turn Undead attempt like there was no tomorrow (he took Extra Turning too) and his Flame Strike was really powerful (9d6 x 1,5 at 9th level twice or thrice a day is damaging, granted - more than any kind of caster can do at that same level - , and this is not even the worst possible scenario, since damaging spells are not the worst thing with these combos).

Of course, this comes from my personal experience, but my hope is that the Generalist do not incur in the same 'bear-trap' that Divine Metamagic was in 3.5 (for example).

An Evoker that can Maximize/Empower/Quicken some of his damaging spells over the spell-level cap? This is something (IMHO) that could be done to give that Specialist some love.
A Generalist that can bend those rules with ALL kind of spells ? This is something (again, IMHO) too much unbalanced.
Just my 2c, anyway.

So you're burning feats, your main class ability, and two of your highest level spells (you get maybe 3-4 of them) to take out 1 encounter... I'm not seeing the problem here.

Evokers have a number of problems, starting with everything about them is suck. Give them +5 damage per spell level as a specialist bonus instead of +5 at 20th level and maybe I'll consider it a semi-worthwhile school.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I had a really radical thought on how to deal with the Universalist Wizard. Why not eliminate them from the Path Finders totally and force every wizard to specialize. If we eleminate the Universalist arcane school it should be relatively easier to balance the 8 specialists against each other. One of the better ideas Bruce Cordell wrote into the Expanded Psionics Handbook was every psion had to specialize.

Does anybody agree or am I just too far out on this one?

Doug


DougErvin wrote:

I had a really radical thought on how to deal with the Universalist Wizard. Why not eliminate them from the Path Finders totally and force every wizard to specialize. If we eliminate the Universalist arcane school it should be relatively easier to balance the 8 specialists against each other. One of the better ideas Bruce Cordell wrote into the Expanded Psionics Handbook was every psion had to specialize.

Does anybody agree or am I just too far out on this one?

Doug

I would like to say IMO! NO to the idea of eliminating the generalist mage. I have NEVER liked to play a spec. because you had to give up two or even three schools to be better at 1. Thats insane and not worth it. The times I have played a mage or cleric or druid the versatility was what saved me and my party on more than one occasion.

Heres a radical thought that those who play second ed will remember. Instead of giving the universalist mage bonus spells, which is what most everybody seems to be up in arms about, go back to the 2nd ed rule and say that as you gain in lvl you automatically learn the item creation feats. For those not familiar with 2nd ed the rules back then stated that you had to be 7th lvl before you could pen a scroll and 9th before you could brew potions like 11th before you could make a sword/staff, and etc,etc. so if you say that because a mage is a man of learning he gets these feats as he progresses( NO swapping) then that might be the balance your looking for. The sorcerer is still the magical mutant blaster caster and the mage/wizard is the man of learning and mystery. Yes I can already hear the howls of "they already get free feats" but all the other specs get stuff too.

I personally LOVE what pazio has done with the mages and the spec's and don't want to see ANY changes to any thing else, well except to UNnerf the spells, it all comes down to house rule city. I just don't want to see the mage/(insert any spellcaster here) so weakened in the name of balance and everyone has to be equal that the classes lose their uniqueness.


DougErvin wrote:

I had a really radical thought on how to deal with the Universalist Wizard. Why not eliminate them from the Path Finders totally and force every wizard to specialize...

Does anybody agree or am I just too far out on this one?

Way too far out - as mentioned above, some of us really don't care for specialists. I've gotten used to them a bit since 3rd edition since non-specialists were virtually unplayable (IMHO), but still much prefer to have a plain old magic-user (wizard).

FatR wrote:
That's not even the beginning of the horror that is universalist. Not until combining his free metamagic with non-core metamagic feats and metamagic cost reducers can you understant the true, awe-inspiring extent of his power. Firing an Empowered, Split Ray, Chain Enervation without any actual increase at spell slot? No problem.

Slight problem:

Complete Arcane, p.76 wrote:
Chain Spell: "Any spell that specifies a single target..."

Ray spells are not target spells (i.e. do not specify a target) so cannot be chained.

Etales wrote:

Yeah, Twin-spelled/zmaximized/Split Ray modified Ray of Enfeeblement.

No Save, Had a 40 Strength? Now it's 1
Now that does require a Maximized metamagic rod but how hard is that to get for a 17th level Wizard?

{Going on the assumption that this is a spell other than Ray of Enfeeblement, which doesn't stack with itself}: Metamagic feats stack, but modify the base spell, not the metamagic'd spell - so a twinned/split-ray spell would have three rays - the first spell with its split ray and the twinned spell.

I don't even use these junky metamagic feats and its easy to see through the "killer-combos".

Of course, as mentioned by another:

Pathfinder Beta wrote:
Metamagic Mastery (Su): You can apply any one metamagic feat that you know to a spell you are about to cast.

Etales did compensate for that - memorize a split ray [fill in ray spell], twin it with metamagic mastery and use a rod of metamagic maximize on it, though still not quite as broken as it was made out to seem. A split-ray, twinned, maximized polar ray for instance would indeed do about 306 cold damage and 12 dex damage assuming all hit, at 17th level (the earliest you could do this). But just a twinned maximized would do 204 and 8 dex.

All that said/pointed out, I could easily see the ability dropped to be limited by what you can cast, or one over perhaps. It should make it more interesting by encouraging the lower use ones (empower, enlarge, still, silent).

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