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OK First no idea where this should go... so please move to the proper forum
OK Meat of the question is as the Subject says...
I just cannot get into Prestige Classes. This is a personal thing I am sure. But to me they just seem so contrived, a means to deliver really cool abilities with no real reason to exist for the most part.
For me, a Prestige Class would represent the training undergone by an adventurer who joins an organization which produces soldiers, students, apprentices, and the the faithful to fulfill specific roles.
For example, you join the Army, you are a Fighter. They need specialized fighters and mages to jump off gryphons in combat at night. They will call this elite group Airborne Rangers. All soldiers in this elite group get specialized training to become a Prestige Class known as Airborne Ranger...
For me to be a Prestige Class, there should be a special organization behind it. A reason to be an Eldritch Kight would be because there is an elite unit known as the Eldritch Knight. You become one by meeting their requirements (testing in) and joining their organization- with all the obligations and benefits that entails.
So I guess what I am saying is... where are the secret societies, the organizations, the elite armies that justify Prestige Classes to exist in the first place?
Anyone ever play 7th Sea? It is full of secret societies and organizations to join. I want more fluff and less crunch...
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OK First no idea where this should go... so please move to the proper forum
OK Meat of the question is as the Subject says...
I just cannot get into Prestige Classes. This is a personal thing I am sure. But to me they just seem so contrived, a means to deliver really cool abilities with no real reason to exist for the most part.
For me, a Prestige Class would represent the training undergone by an adventurer who joins an organization which produces soldiers, students, apprentices, and the the faithful to fulfill specific roles.
For example, you join the Army, you are a Fighter. They need specialized fighters and mages to jump off gryphons in combat at night. They will call this elite group Airborne Rangers. All soldiers in this elite group get specialized training to become a Prestige Class known as Airborne Ranger...
For me to be a Prestige Class, there should be a special organization behind it. A reason to be an Eldritch Kight would be because there is an elite unit known as the Eldritch Knight. You become one by meeting their requirements (testing in) and joining their organization- with all the obligations and benefits that entails.
So I guess what I am saying is... where are the secret societies, the organizations, the elite armies that justify Prestige Classes to exist in the first place?
Anyone ever play 7th Sea? It is full of secret societies and organizations to join. I want more fluff and less crunch...
I can see your point, but I don't completely agree. I think prestige classes are intentionally low on fluff so that a dm can put them into their own campaign world with setting unique fluff. If too much fluff were 'official' you'd have a lot of retconning to do to fit them into a homewbrew world.
Now, what would be useful would be a series of articles discussing fluff ideas for how a specific prestige class could be used. Sounds like a perfect article fit for PF Companion or Kobald Quarterly...
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I just cannot get into Prestige Classes. This is a personal thing I am sure. But to me they just seem so contrived, a means to deliver really cool abilities with no real reason to exist for the most part.
If every Prestige Class were stripped down to the class features, and then offered as Feats or Feat Chains (and / or Alternate Class Features), I'd be tickled pink.
I just don't like the basic concept.
But, blah-blah backwards compatibility. And there are people who *do* like them, so I'd be just as happy with duplicating many of the PrC class abilities to *also* be available as Feats or Alternate Class Features, so that I can make a Rogue or Ranger with Hide in Plain Sight who *isn't* a Shadowdancer, or whatever.
I believe fluff can be added by the DM when he needs it. Personally I really really like the beta release of dragon disciple, dualist, arcane trickster, mystic theurge, eldritch knight, and loremaster.
Arcane Archer seems a bit off to me. Where is the arcane when your spell casting doesn't improve?
Assassin seems great for an NPC prestige class or a game with few players so the DM can actually spend time with each one individually allowing them the time to set up senerios where the Death attack is actually useful. Otherwise the whole thing is too time consuming.
Shadowdancer just lacks 'umpf' for me. Love the concept, still not crazy about the implimentation.
Pathfinder Chronicler... WHY ISN'T THIS THE BARD! Come on! Why do you torment me so? Just make the bard what he should be already!
ah hem... so um yeah I like the vast majority of them.
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I think some of the prestige classes could become templates for other prestige classes of the same type:
Dragon Disciple for other sorcerer bloodlines
Eldritch Knight for paladin/caster, barbarian/caster, et al.
Mystic Theurge for psionic/arcane, psionic/divine, et al.
I really don't think there is a need for a prestige class to do each combination when a slight alteration to the ones already presented can already do it.
Example of Eldritch Knight Expansion
Example of Dragon Disciple expansion
Just saying...
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For me, a Prestige Class would represent the training undergone by an adventurer who joins an organization which produces soldiers, students, apprentices, and the the faithful to fulfill specific roles.
For example, you join the Army, you are a Fighter. They need specialized fighters and mages to jump off gryphons in combat at night. They will call this elite group Airborne Rangers. All soldiers in this elite group get specialized training to become a Prestige Class known as Airborne Ranger...
For me to be a Prestige Class, there should be a special organization behind it. A reason to be an Eldritch Kight would be because there is an elite unit known as the Eldritch Knight. You become one by meeting their requirements (testing in) and joining their organization- with all the obligations and benefits that entails.
So I guess what I am saying is... where are the secret societies, the organizations, the elite armies that justify Prestige Classes to exist in the first place?
If you dig out copies of the 3E books, that was the concept originally presented for prestige classes.
Somewhere in the next 2 years that concept was completely lost, and prestige classes became nothing but gratuitous power up add-ons that ultimately completely overshadowed the base classes. This was mostly due to prestige classes getting some new special ability at every level and those abilities being better than the base class abilities that were lost.This can work if the game is specifically designed for it. D20 Modern for example, where it openly states that the base classes suck compared to the advanced and prestige classes, and that you should only take them for enough levels to qualify for one of those. The base classes are also suitable for NPCs of any level.
From what has appeared in Pathfinder Beta, it seems Jason wants to move back to that original intent. While the updated prestige classes are good, the base classes are still good enough on their own to make single base class builds viable.
For regular use, it is just a self-discipline/DM fiat issue. If you want prestige classes to represent special training from prestigious organizations make it clear to players at the start of the campaign, make whatever changes are needed to whatever prestige classes you allow (or even design your own), then enforce the restrictions. That is what I do, and my players enjoy how it focuses their characters and makes them stand out.
As for the organizations themselves, for the most part they tend to be settng specific, and need to be designed by individual DMs. There are a few WotC accessory book systems for designing them. Doing so tends to be rather time intensive, and of limited relevance to most campaigns, particularly villainous groups, which is why I expect you do not see too many published for D&D.
Maybe I'm over-generalizing here, but I think that players tend to love PRCs and DMs tend to hate 'em.
Oh no, as a DM I love me some PrC's. My rule is any book by WotC is available to the players, unless a majority of the players vote it out...
And any book available to the players is available to me as a DM.
It's kind of like have "contingency: Nuke the world" set up and ticking... they can present uberness-in-a-can if they want, I can present a can opener, then we can get back to playing D&D.
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I like prestige classes a LOT. Especially when they feel prestigious. I don't like when there's a billion of them and they start to look like power creep (here's a class that's an even BETTER wizard than a wizard!). It's best when they're methods to grow and develop world flavor.
And yet that's just one of the options.
We've got PrCs that;
1) Develop one class ability at the expense of others (druid wild shape enhancing PrCs, for instance) or expand on some class lore (sorcerer -> dragon disciple).
2) PrCs that transform a 'core' class into a traditional specific role (rogue -> assassin, cleric -> radiant healer of pelor, fighter -> duelist).
3) Setting specific flavor PrCs (many of the Forgotten Realms & Scarred Lands PrCs, or the Red Mantis).
*All* of these are valid ways to go, IMO.
On the other hand, *all* of these could be just as validly represented by Feats or Alternate Class Features that allowed any old Rogue (or Ranger or whatever) to become a bit of an 'assassin' without necessarily having to join a specific organization like the Red Mantis Society, or any old Druid to focus on Wild Shaping (or enhancing his Companion) without having to join some secret 'Moonspeaker Cult' or whatever.
Perhaps some secret lore in a specific setting *is* only available to members of the Mages of the Arcane Order of Mathghamnha, but that should be a choice that the DM is making. A class ability is a class ability, and if the DM wants Serpentfolk to crystallize the soft-shelled egg remains of their young, and then use them later as talismans to channel the arcane energies of arcanists of their race who've been dead for centuries, creating a completely different sort of 'spellpool,' then the 'spellpool' concept should be available for that DM to work with as a separate Feat so that he doesn't have to try and guess what sort of requirements would make it balanced to add as a feature to someone who *hasn't* filled all of the 'Arcane Order' PrC requirements.
I just cannot get into Prestige Classes. This is a personal thing I am sure. But to me they just seem so contrived, a means to deliver really cool abilities with no real reason to exist for the most part.
I like prestige classes that allow you to do something new and different from what is possible with base classes. E.g. the Master of Many Forms prestige class. Now if there were a Shapeshifter base class, or a druid variant that allowed you to play the same thing, that would be just as good for my purposes. It's the number of options, not the number of prestige classes, that's most important to me.
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Maybe I'm over-generalizing here, but I think that players tend to love PRCs and DMs tend to hate 'em.
I am thinking this might need to move location...
My original intent was not so much related to the RPG in general but to Golarion. But we can discuss the RPG in general here as well.
There should be a section of the forums tat are Golarion specific.
anyway... sorry about that
Now... to post what the Post Monster tried to just eat!
I like prestige classes a LOT. Especially when they feel prestigious. I don't like when there's a billion of them and they start to look like power creep (here's a class that's an even BETTER wizard than a wizard!). It's best when they're methods to grow and develop world flavor.
Yeah that is it! Grow and develop world flavor...
There are 10 PrCs listed in the web enhancement you guys have published. Will there be world flavor for them? I know there is for Pathfinder Chronicler. But what is an Eldritch Knight? Who do they serve? Are they the Templars of Gollarion?
If you haven't read any of the secret society books for 7th Sea, you really should pick one up and check it out. I especially liked the Knights of the Black Cross- The Templars of that game world. Ever since reading those secret society books I have used them in every game I play. It becomes so much more interesting than and multifacted.
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I just cannot get into Prestige Classes. This is a personal thing I am sure. But to me they just seem so contrived, a means to deliver really cool abilities with no real reason to exist for the most part.I like prestige classes that allow you to do something new and different from what is possible with base classes. E.g. the Master of Many Forms prestige class. Now if there were a Shapeshifter base class, or a druid variant that allowed you to play the same thing, that would be just as good for my purposes. It's the number of options, not the number of prestige classes, that's most important to me.
I can see that...
I agree with some others above, though that perhaps that can be achieved as feats, feat trees or alternate class abilities for the base classes.
I am a HUGE fan of class variants. Stuff that appeared in Unearthed Arcana was just fantastic. You can see it at d20.org .
I suppose for me, most Prestige Classes just look like something a bit better than a bass class and a bit worse too, but not really what I consider Prestigious. That is, they lack an oomph that I would look for. Does that make any sense? I am tired and had a really bad morning so this might not make sense :)
Maybe I'm over-generalizing here, but I think that players tend to love PRCs and DMs tend to hate 'em.
I like them as a player and as a DM.
As DM, I like to make up NPCs with PrC levels.
The more options, the better.
I like them both ways too (as a player and a dm)
As a DM I have a simple rule:
Whatever books the (simple majority) players want available, are available to them... and to me as a DM.
I leave the power level up to the players. If they bring high powered characters to the table they will meet high powered, cunning foes. If they bring 'normal' characters they will meet normal foes. 'Lesser' characters will probably have even more chances to shine and grow truthfully, as I pay attention more to them (like why they were choosen by the player).
Over all it all depends on what the players bring to the table on what they get thrown back at them.
Not petty, challenging.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Count me in as a hater of prestige classes in general. I tend to lump them into two buckets:
1. Prestige Classes as Organizations: This is the typical justification and the biggest failure of prestige classes. As the risk of getting a bunch of "OMG, you need to focus on roleplaying and not being a munchkin type responses", the prestige classes that are tailored to a specific organization have an impossible task. They need to appeal to all character types and yet not be worse than the base class abilities you are giving up. This almost never happens because the goals of the organization, and the abilities the prestige class grants which are relevant to/symbolic of those goals, tend to be more specialized and less useful than the core class abilities. It's like the bard spells no one ever takes because they are too conditional/specialized - most players will not waste their choices on a flavorful but ultimately very limited ability.
Not only that, tying the prestige class to the organization has one of two effects. If the prestige class is strongly associated with one class (or class combo), you end up with a very limited niche-ish organization. You need to have some way to differentiate the organization from the base class it is so strongly associated with or grapple with an organization that is crippled due to a very narrow specialization (e.g., a thieves guild where everyone has the same abilities and no one can cast spells). This might be a good tool for the DM, but prestige classes are not DM-friendly. They are balanced against players, their abilities are typically more complex than the core class abilities that are lost, and they are a pain in the ass to apply. The DM has a much better tool in the form of templates, and those are what should be used rather than prestige classes for NPCs.
The other common organization based prestige class is the one that is not designed to appeal to a particular core class. These suck very badly. Because they have to be balanced for any base class, they typically offer a hodge podge of abilities, none of which have a great deal of synergy with any other abilities or the core classes. You end up gimping your character to be a member of an organization, and who wants that?
2. Prestige Classes that Make a Choice Not Suck: Okay, I lied. I don't hate prestige classes, but these are the ones that I like and there are a limited number of them. These are the prestige classes that take a sub-optimal choice under the core rules (e.g., multi-classing any caster) and make that choice not suck. They fill a gap in the rules, but are generic enough that you're not stuck with some corny organization that might not fit your campaign. If the multi-classing rules did not result in gimping, you would need substantially fewer of these classes.
So, that's my view: prestige classes as organizations fail for 95% of players and are too complicated to be useful for DMs. Prestige classes that make a sub-optimal choice viable are cool because they expand your play options but could probably be cut back if the multi-class rules worked better.
Edit: Okay, good point regarding those prestige classes that expand and develop a core ability. Those are pretty cool too.
Edit2: And they take up sooooo much space because they need to fit in all the basic class elements and flavor text. They just aren't very good in their current incarnation. Class ability swaps or feats and templates are much better technology than prestige classes.
Edit 3: Plus, there are too many 10 level prestige classes with cool abilities at level 9 and 10 that can only be taken starting at character level 8. They get pushed into high level play, which is probably the least played range of the game.
Personally I like PrC to be because of Fluff, and taking them for the sake of taking them is meaningless in my eyes. THe bad part is most of my players don't play on messageboards and play to play more than anything and don't think ahead as far as character builds, etc. EXCEPT like 2 or 3 players who only pick PrC if they are part of the new UBER awesome character build they found somewhere who uses 37 flavors of splatbook and 10 epic items at level one or somesuch. I have one guy who has a nice big shopping list for every level and feat and skill point into the epic levels to build some rediculous fighter/mage combo that get 18 BaB, and 9th level spells at level 18 or some such... I jus kind of go "Whatever dude" and move on. I just wish PrC were looked at based on flavor rather than powers "Oh, I wanna be a Crimson Guard of the Seven Dieties, those sound neat and awe inspiring!" :P
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Rather than edit again into my long post, a short summary:
1. Prestige classes for organizations should be 3-5 levels. They should be more akin to templates rather than full classes and thereby be adaptable to each core class (e.g., skill x is no longer trained, pick a skill from list q which is now trained). They shouldn't universally fiddle with BAB, saves, or casting - those should derive from the base class and the PrC should layer on abilities at the cost of core abilities and/or feats.
2. Prestige classes for sucky choices should be 5-10 levels and should fix multi-classing problems. Prestige classes that expand on a class ability should be 3-5 levels and should be accesible as soon as the ability is obtained and, again, should not waste space on things that are unchanged from the base class (e.g., there's no point restating the druids BAB/HD/saves/skills in a prestige class that expands wildshaping - just use the druid info).
3. Prestige classes should be available at low levels.
4. Templates should be used in lieu of prestige classes as DM tools. They provide similar functionality but at a lower page count and with far less hoop jumping. Plus, they can be balanced against monsters instead of PCs and many monsters have class abilities plus extra stuff (e.g., that angel that casts as cleric of its CR and has a whole host of extra abilities).
I am 100% behind Set on this one. The whole concept of Prestige Classes always reminded me of the original Wizardry computer game, where there were certain classes (like Samurai and Ninja) that were just plain better than the others, and the "basic" classes ended up seeming very dull in comparison.
I love the approach taken by PFRPG to make the core classes just as appealing as theses prestige classes. But, to me, this just screams: what's the point of having them? To me, what REALLY makes sense is to take prestige classes and divide them into two other areas:
1) Alternate class paths/variants/abilities. Prestige classes that are closely tied to a single class (e.g. dragon disciple) would work well here. This could even be expanded to include other similar options that don't, on their own, provide enough "meat" to be an entire prestige class. Several big advantages here: the simplicity of not needing all new classes, the prevention of level dipping (as these options generally don't open up until mid-high levels), and (my favorite) the addition of even more variety within every class.
2) Feats/feat chains. Prestige classes that work for several base classes could be more elegantly simulated through feats or feat chains. Want to be a dwarven defender? Well, now any class could theoretically take the feats that would emulate the prestige class (although naturally fighter-types will be better suited). Big advantages: characters can better tailor their characters to their liking, cool abilities can be encountered in any PC/NPC (maybe that ranger CAN hide in plain sight...great element of surprise!), and when combined with the alternate class paths, all kinds of interesting builds become available.
I've always firmly felt that it should be up to the DM to create the world in which characters are developed - NOT the ruleset. If one DM is fine with "gnomish" defenders, the rules themselves shouldnt discourage this; rather, they should present options that encourage creativity and open character building (in a balanced manner, of course). To me, prestige classes always seemed to present fascinating gaming concepts in a way that was far too focused and restrictive. As far as backwards compatibility goes, perhaps a paragraph could be included for each of the 3.5 core prestige classes that would explain the new feats/class options for conversion purposes.
In reading the Paizo materials, I am confident they could skillfully implement a system like this without using significantly more space than the prestige class section already would.
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EXCEPT like 2 or 3 players who only pick PrC if they are part of the new UBER awesome character build they found somewhere who uses 37 flavors of splatbook and 10 epic items at level one or somesuch.
And that's one of my reasons for wanting these PrC abilities just stripped out. Some of the abilities, no one wants. Some of of the abilities, *everyone wants.* As a result, PrC levels are going to be artificially chosen by players who want Shadow Pounce or Metamagic Mastery or Spell Power or whatever.
If they don't want to be a Dark Flaming Night Avenger of Quizzle-porf, and aren't going to role-play the darn thing anyway (and I don't necessarily want those losers in my game and to have to integrate an organization the player is only going to ignore anyway), then making Shadow Pounce into a feat that he can give his character (at some suitably high level) *while taking only Rogue levels and sticking to his character concept,* then I'm all for that.
Make it a Rogue Talent or Alternate Class Feature or Feat or whatever. If the player specifically wants to join a secret shadowy brotherhood of assassins-in-service-to-the-vampiric-Dark-Lady, then that's totally cool, and he doesn't need any special kewl powerz as a bribe for that choice.
I like prestige classes a LOT. Especially when they feel prestigious. I don't like when there's a billion of them and they start to look like power creep (here's a class that's an even BETTER wizard than a wizard!). It's best when they're methods to grow and develop world flavor.
I like a limited number of prestige classes, particularly ones that aren't just a slight variation on a class or prestige class already done. Some of the prestige classes in Complete Divine fall into this trap.
It's best when they're methods to grow and develop world flavor.
That is both why I think they should exist, and why I like them.
Chief Technical Officer
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I am thinking this might need to move location...
My original intent was not so much related to the RPG in general but to Golarion. But we can discuss the RPG in general here as well.
There should be a section of the forums tat are Golarion specific.
This is the right section for Golarion-specific discussion.
I do understand your intent, and this particular thread could reasonably go here or into the RPG forum, so I'll just leave it here.
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It's best when they're methods to grow and develop world flavor.
Heck, yeah!
I'm using a home-grown campaign world, and I'm using a few to try to enhance flavor. A lot of your ideas from Golarion I'm shamelessly stealing.
As a rule, I don't like 'generic' prestige classes, although Assassin and Blackguards have their place. I prefer something based in culture. Here's what I'm using thus far:
Vadani Star Dancer (based on the Dervish, as a gypsy dancing whirlwind)
Red Wraith Assassin (based on your Red Mantis Assassin)
Golemworker of Baligante (based on a hybrid of golem-making guys)
Ashport Reaver (based on lightning sailors from Stardust)
Harrower (stolen shamelessly from Paizo)
Shadowcraft Mage (based on the Races of Stone class, but changed to reflect campaign culture)
I'm enjoying adding more as Paizo publishes ideas that mesh with my world, and taking old generic classes, and tweaking them so they have a place and role in my world.
I just wish PrC were looked at based on flavor rather than powers "Oh, I wanna be a Crimson Guard of the Seven Dieties, those sound neat and awe inspiring!" :P
That'd be O.K., but there are some DMs out there who use flavour as a reason to exclude PrCs. E.g. "I don't like flavour of the Crimson Guard [even though it's really fairly similar to the Scarlet Protectors in my own campaign], so tough luck."
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Here's what I'm using thus far:
Vadani Star Dancer (based on the Dervish, as a gypsy dancing whirlwind)
Red Wraith Assassin (based on your Red Mantis Assassin)
Golemworker of Baligante (based on a hybrid of golem-making guys)
Ashport Reaver (based on lightning sailors from Stardust)
Harrower (stolen shamelessly from Paizo)
Shadowcraft Mage (based on the Races of Stone class, but changed to reflect campaign culture)
Ooh, these sounds pretty neat. The Golemworkers sound particularly awesome. (I like golem-crafters every bit as much as necromancers. Minions. I'm all about the minions.)
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I love what Paizo has done with the DMG PrCs. One of my players is a Mystic Theurge and now really kicks ass (before, he was just a guy with two spell lists that was two spell levels behind everyone else).
CONGRATS!
You guys managed to take a cool concept with bland implementation/design to an even cooler concept with magnificent design and an amazing number of play options!
(by the way, this in my Realms homecampaign - pre-Spellplague and 3.5, of course - and the PC is a cleric/wizard/MT of Mystra... so the swapping of cleric/wizard spells slolts/spell lists fits right in!!! and now he's got shurikens and a longsword - free cleric weapon of deity and free human weapon familiarity - to boot!! I have another player who plays a wizard/war_weaver who's a member of the War Wizards of Cormyr too: both the war wizard and the Mystra theurge LOVE Hand of the Apprentice and the universalist bonus spells, by the way... school powers greatly enhance fun in our weekly sessions!)
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If they don't want to be a Dark Flaming Night Avenger of Quizzle-porf, and aren't going to role-play the darn thing anyway (and I don't necessarily want those losers in my game and to have to integrate an organization the player is only going to ignore anyway), then making Shadow Pounce into a feat that he can give his character (at some suitably high level) *while taking only Rogue levels and sticking to his character concept,* then I'm all for that.
One of the games I was running two guys drove me nuts with PrCs. They made their characters and specced them out to level 20. Even prerolling hit points so there were no surprises. They used so many prestige classes it wasn't funny. I have to admit Asmodeus himself would have been hard pressed against them at lvl 20... we didn't play that long before the game fell apart. You know level 3 and the Barbarian has a +40 to hit. Or some stupidly outrageous number... in essence we were playing Burnt Offering and he could only miss on a roll of 1. Course his AC was 7, but still the goblins couldn't hit him because they were all dead! (BTW the new cleave works wonders for that).
Truth be told when I make a BBEG I generally don't bother with regular classes at all. I take a generic class from Unearthed Arcana and start throwing in class abilities and stuff that I want him to have. Really keeps them guessing when the frail looking sorcerer pulls out a warhammer and smacks the ground to make the earth quake, knocking them all down. Couldn't do that in Burnt Offering though.
Oh, and before anyone goes nuts... No they did not get to keep the rolls...
I guess I am perhaps more interested in the secret society and organization itself than I am in the class and mechanics.
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Pathfinder Prestige Classes suggestions from Paizo Chat -
Lilith› A Pathfinder Prestige Class you'd like to see.
Russ› HELLKNIGHTS!
Russ› High Templars
Russ› Pirate of the Abnegio Eye
TheLesuit› Osirion Tomb Raider
Russ› Numerian Artificer
Russ› Alkenstar Musketeer
Justin Sluder / Russ› BLOATMAGE!
TheLesuit› Sin Magic Adept
TheLesuit› Dino Wrangler
Russ› Sin Magic Courtesan
robert_hawk› janderhoff mage-wrights
Russ› Linnoworm slayer
Russ› Merchant of Mwangi
The Gremlin› Master Seer!
TheLesuit› Ooo...Chelaxian Barrister sounds awesome.
TheLesuit› Taldoran Dog Walker
Pathfinder Prestige Classes suggestions from Paizo Chat -
Yay! pazio chat contribution! too bad I missed it...damn flu... :(
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I love Prestige Classes, what better way to make a unique villian?
As a GM, its kind of your responsibility to make sure you and your players use PrCs responsibly, that's all.
There's an awful lot of unexplained crunch in the game, which personally, I enjoy because I can give it meaning in my own campaigns.
But really, I'm in favor of anything that increases character diversity.
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One of the games I was running two guys drove me nuts with PrCs.
That's the players, not the PrCs.
Personally, I would have used the opportunity to scour their projections for leveling, and designed my adventures to specifically nerf every single one of their munchkiney PrC choices, leaving them distraught and reluctant to ever attempt such tomfoolery again.But I tend to be mean like that.
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Prestige classes, if done well, have their place, but in general I dislike them. Here are the pros and cons as I see them:
Pros:
- Prestige Classes are good if you're building a mid-to-high level character, as you can pick and choose your abilities, skills, feats etc to meet the pre-requisites up-front.
- Prestige Classes are a good way to represent a campaign's flavour, cultures, societies and organisations.
- Prestige Classes are like rewards for players who achieve them.
Cons:
- For characters starting at first level, Prestige Classes can be difficult to plan toward and qualify for, and unfairly disadvantage new players unfamiliar with this level of advanced-planning;
- Character might have dedicated his entire life to seeking out and destroying undead, but might not qualify for the Prestige Class until mid-career.
- Many campaigns don't last long enough to achieve Prestige Classes, and they're totally unavailable to players who prefer low level play.
Suggestions:
- The Core Classes offer a good range of generic character concepts, but many Prestige Classes would be cool if only you could play them at first level. I think this was WotC's direction with the introduction of recent Base Classes. Eg, Dragon Shaman Base Class vs Dragon Disciple Prestige Class - they both cover similar intent, but one is fun to play at first level, the other you have to build toward playing at mid-level. I'd like to see more Base Classes.
- In an effort to prevent Prestige Classes becoming "better Wizards than the Wizard", maybe they should be sample 20-level builds using the existing available rules. Eg, Assassins and Shadow Dancers could be alternative Rogue builds, and Arcane Tricksters could be alternative Arcane-Rogue multi-class builds. Each would demonstrate how to acquire certain skills, feats and abilities from 1st through 20th levels, consistent with the Classes purpose or theme. There could(/should) still be racial and other requirements as appropriate. Under this proposal, many Prestige Classes couldn't be built without introducing new feats, spells, alternate class abilities (Rogue tricks?) etc, into the rules which any character of appropriate class could qualify to use with or without advancing through the path suggested by the Prestige Class.
- These suggestions extend the enjoyment of Prestige Classes to all levels of play.
Eagle Knights of Andoran
a new Hunter of the Dead for Ustalav!!
You going to take credit for both of those Montalve? ;)
CJ
I don't care much about PrC's fluff. Often it doesn't look really prestigious when compared with actual power level of characters and enforces the idea that members of the class (i.e. relatively high-level characters) are, like, totally common. That way lies madness which consumed Forgotten Realms.
However, I think, that from mechanical and balance standpoint PrCs are necessary. Yes, some of them make spellcasters even more godly, but, on the other hand, most of the core fighting classes very much require a good combination of dips and PrCs to be competent at high level. And by competent I mean "can survive and contribute to the party's success in Paizo's APs from Dragon ". PBeta, if anything, makes the need for complicated PrCs schemes even more desperate, because it kills feat options that had potential to make melee at least reasonable in its primary job without level dipping.
My experience is that if a player is starting at a mid to high level then they are much more likely to choose a Prestige class.
If a player has to actually play through all the levels where they have had to take the often stupid qualifying Feats and put ranks into often sub-optimal skills they tend not to pick Prestige Classes.
Edit 3: Plus, there are too many 10 level prestige classes with cool abilities at level 9 and 10 that can only be taken starting at character level 8. They get pushed into high level play, which is probably the least played range of the game.
This. This is my biggest problem with prestige classes. If your average 3.5 campaign doesn’t go very far past level 12 or 13 (and rarely makes it beyond 15), then why even bother having prestige classes that last 10 levels, and ones that cannot be joined until level 6+?
Worse yet, if you follow the DMG suggestions for number of NPCs of each class level available in each city, you simple don’t have enough high level NPCs to make up an organization built up of NPCs with prestige classes. Not unless they only have 1 or 2 levels in the class. And if that’s the case, again, why have 10 level classes?
I wish that you could qualify for prestige classes at level 4, and that most prestige classes only lasted for 4 to 8 levels. I think they’d be far more useful for both PCs in your average campaign and for making NPC organizations.
OK First no idea where this should go... so please move to the proper forum
OK Meat of the question is as the Subject says...
I just cannot get into Prestige Classes. This is a personal thing I am sure. But to me they just seem so contrived, a means to deliver really cool abilities with no real reason to exist for the most part.
For me, a Prestige Class would represent the training undergone by an adventurer who joins an organization which produces soldiers, students, apprentices, and the the faithful to fulfill specific roles.
For example, you join the Army, you are a Fighter. They need specialized fighters and mages to jump off gryphons in combat at night. They will call this elite group Airborne Rangers. All soldiers in this elite group get specialized training to become a Prestige Class known as Airborne Ranger...
For me to be a Prestige Class, there should be a special organization behind it. A reason to be an Eldritch Kight would be because there is an elite unit known as the Eldritch Knight. You become one by meeting their requirements (testing in) and joining their organization- with all the obligations and benefits that entails.
So I guess what I am saying is... where are the secret societies, the organizations, the elite armies that justify Prestige Classes to exist in the first place?
Anyone ever play 7th Sea? It is full of secret societies and organizations to join. I want more fluff and less crunch...
I can see your point, but I don't completely agree. I think prestige classes are intentionally low on fluff so that a dm can put them into their own campaign world with setting unique fluff. If too much fluff were 'official' you'd have a lot of retconning to do to fit them into a homewbrew world.
Now, what would be useful would be a series of articles discussing fluff ideas for how a specific prestige class could be used. Sounds like a perfect article fit for PF Companion or Kobald Quarterly...
agree with this whole heartedly, sometimes its the Dm and players job to supply the RP part of the RPG. If you place the fluff in the requirements you make assumptions about specific organizations being viable to a given campaign
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Edit 3: Plus, there are too many 10 level prestige classes with cool abilities at level 9 and 10 that can only be taken starting at character level 8. They get pushed into high level play, which is probably the least played range of the game.
*So* many PrCs really only have one to three class features that are any different than 'increased spell progression!' anyway.
Savagely cutting all PrCs down to 1 to (at most!) 5 levels would be nice.
I have no problem with *some* PrCs requiring one to be 7th or 10th or whatever level, but entirely too many of them seem to have arbitrarily high level requirements for fairly unsexy benefits. (Contemplative, for instance. In 3.X, an extra Domain is not exactly sex on a stick, and adding one at 10th level, *that won't stack for progression with Cleric levels* and *will prevent Domain progression for previous Domains.* seems pretty dubious a choice.)
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Eagle Knights of Andoran
a new Hunter of the Dead for Ustalav!!
You going to take credit for both of those Montalve? ;)
CJ
of course!
ok the eagle knights are already an organizatrion and you would need 3 typesand the ones i like more arethe ones in the "secret services" :P
and you need something a kin to monster hunter or hunter ofthe dead orlycantrpes in the dark lands of Ustalav!
I love PrCs that enhance flavor. They're there for role playing purposes. They may be "sub-optimal" but provide a wealth of role playing opportunities. I hate the way that WotC popped out 10 billion PrCs simply to sell books, esp when they had NO portable flavor or had such insane requirements to need the player to plan out their character from 1st level.
I mean take Belkar from OotS as an example, he has a Wis Penalty, but if he wanted to take some kind of tracker PrC, he'd only need ranks in survival, search and a few feats that he would either have as a ranger or could easily take. Meanwhile, Durkon casts some quality cleric spells and would probably be better at survival then Belkar. That just doesn't make sense to me. Yea, you might have more training in said skill, but if you're worse, you're worse. Period.
I always felt and still feel that alternate class levels and feats were a much better way to go. PrCs should mean something. The way Wizards handled them, they're nothing but a way to munchkin a character.
[/rant]
I love the way Paizo is handling them. A PrC for the Red Mantis Assassins, one associated followers of each god, one for Pathfinders, etc
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I hate the way that WotC popped out 10 billion PrCs simply to sell books, esp when they had NO portable flavor or had such insane requirements to need the player to plan out their character from 1st level.
Just about every Prestige Class should have multiple routes for qualification. (Some are completely dependent upon a specific class feature, so I'm okay with a Sorcerer-only Dragon Disciple PrC or a Barbarian-only Frenzied Berserker, but many other seem overly restricted, or *require* multi-classing, which, IMO, should be *discouraged* more often than not...)
I very much like for each Prestige Class to have a paragraph for using this class in other settings. Specific settings don't need to be included, just ideas for how a different setting could have a different priesthood that focused on this, or a different organization that did this sort of thing, or, *especially,* how certain specific prerequisites might be swapped out (such as racial prereqs, language prereqs, patron diety prereqs, etc. that would be setting-dependent).
Rather than edit again into my long post, a short summary:
1. Prestige classes for organizations should be 3-5 levels. They should be more akin to templates rather than full classes and thereby be adaptable to each core class (e.g., skill x is no longer trained, pick a skill from list q which is now trained). They shouldn't universally fiddle with BAB, saves, or casting - those should derive from the base class and the PrC should layer on abilities at the cost of core abilities and/or feats.
2. Prestige classes for sucky choices should be 5-10 levels and should fix multi-classing problems. Prestige classes that expand on a class ability should be 3-5 levels and should be accesible as soon as the ability is obtained and, again, should not waste space on things that are unchanged from the base class (e.g., there's no point restating the druids BAB/HD/saves/skills in a prestige class that expands wildshaping - just use the druid info).
3. Prestige classes should be available at low levels.
4. Templates should be used in lieu of prestige classes as DM tools. They provide similar functionality but at a lower page count and with far less hoop jumping. Plus, they can be balanced against monsters instead of PCs and many monsters have class abilities plus extra stuff (e.g., that angel that casts as cleric of its CR and has a whole host of extra abilities).
Sebastian, why do you waste all your time playing Bella Sara. You should get a job doing gaming stuff. This post pretty much sums up my thoughts on PrC. When I first saw them, I thought they were a great idea, now that I have over 1500 to choose from just the books I own, they have lost some of their lacquer.
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I like prestige classes, and the challenge of incorporating them into my campaign has given me lots of useful fluff for my homebrew. (For example, I have something like five orders of Eldritch Knights, each one with options not available to the others.)
However, badly designed prestige classes infuriate me. In particular where the requriements don't match the class features. (My pet hate is Divine Champion, which requires a BAB of +7 but then only gives 3/4 progression when you get into it.)
I generally waive most of the prequisites when I'm DMing, so if a player gets a hankering to give a particular one a try he doesn't have to wait another 6 levels. In cases where you can't really waive them, I generally allow "re-training" so the character can swap a few feats.
However, what I don't like about them is that they can turn organisations into a set of mechanics rather than a plot hook. "Harpers? Aren't they the guys who cast ranger spells and can also use bardic music? I would have joined them - the plot potential was awesome - but I didn't want to take the hit to my BAB progression."
At it's heart- what a prestige class *should* do is to allow a particular class to diverge down a different path, while retaining the *core* of the original class while losing some of the variety of it, and obtaining from the PrC the specialtiy that the PrC is designed for.
the Name of the prestige class is just something for us to identify it with. It's fluff. it could be called "Rogue variant prestige class #2" instead of "assassin" or "shadow dancer".
(why? Because you can be a barbarian assassin, a rogue assassin, a wizard assassin.. Assassin is a title, and/or a profession. You can be it without ever even knowing PrC's existed. The same goes with nearly any PrC. Archmage? An RP title. Attaining the PrC neither grants or denies you the title.)
What the PrC's should NOT do is give you something for nothing.
There should be a power trade off that is approximately equivalent, while keeping the PrC unique.
Most of the PrC's fail in that they either give alot with no trade off (I love you archmage, but you fail in this) or you lose alot and get very little in return. (hello shadow dancer!).
A prestige class as a means to diverge into something interesting and specific is fine. But too many of them, especially in splatbooks, give up practically NOTHING in exchange for ultimate cosmic power.
Sadly, Paizo can't really do anything about the non-core PrC's.
Well, actually, they can do one thing.
They can create a simple new rule.
Prestige Classes:
Once one level of a prestige class is gained it must be carried through to the end. The character is allowed to go back to his base class but can take no further base classes or prestige classes until their first prestige class is completed.
or, in other words:
Once you take a level in a prestige class, you have to either complete it or go back to your base class. No more Multiclassing until you finish the PRC.
This eliminates PrC dipping, encouraging people to only select ones they intend to finish.
it also allows Paizo to design some prestige classes without having to worry so dang much about whether or not it's "front loaded" because the rules themselves prevent folks from taking a level or two from several.
Just a thought.
-S
I like prestige classes a LOT. Especially when they feel prestigious. I don't like when there's a billion of them and they start to look like power creep (here's a class that's an even BETTER wizard than a wizard!). It's best when they're methods to grow and develop world flavor.
I agree with Mister Jacob's opinion 100%. I liked the Red Wizards of Thay (uber-speciialist wizards) from the Forgotten Realms setting for the flavor they added to the setting; then in Complete Mage they did a prestige class for specialist wizards that didn't really add anything.