Let's have a look as specialist wizards. This conversation is taking up a significant portion of this thread but it is definitely its own issue.
Benefit
Sacrifice
Benefit
Sacrifice
What do people think about this change? Any playtest feedback? Houserules?
I'd also add that in Pathfinder, you also sacrifice the universal school powers, which currently seem to be better than many, if not all, of the specialist school powers.
It's worse then that. Remember that Universal School Wizards also get bonus spells now.
Remember that Universal School Wizards also get bonus spells now.
Right you are.
Ignoring the issue of the Universal school for the moment (it has its own thread)— when examined separately, do we find the trade-off in the Beta is an improvement over 3.5?
The loss of prohibited schools is much less severe since you can use spell trigger items and even prepare prohibited spells, at the low low cost of your School Power. For certain Schools, like Evocation, this isn't much of a loss at all.
I always thought losing whole schools in 3.5 was too harsh. I think the Beta prohibition is too lenient. My personal preference is to penalize the preparation of prohibited spells (or more simply all non-specialized schools) slightly but meaningfully by having them take up a spell slot one level higher.
What do you all think would be best?
I like the idea of casting prohibited spells at +1 or +2 levels... or there being a significant downside to memorizing them (All specialist powers perhaps?). As things stand right now wizards can take 90% of the benefits of specialization with no downside.
I like the idea of casting prohibited spells at +1 or +2 levels... or there being a significant downside to memorizing them (All specialist powers perhaps?). As things stand right now wizards can take 90% of the benefits of specialization with no downside.
I don't like the idea of preparing Prohibited schools by "turning off" your school powers. I envision Specialization as a disparity in a caster's ability with different schools. It is silly that he can one day just stop specializing and for that day only cast a perfectly good spell he has never heretofore studied.
This is very difficult to role-play without coming up with a specific, in-game magical principle to explain it.
...I hope that Scrolls of Barred Schools will also be barred.
...I just don't see the "Flavor" logic for a Wizard being so focused on one School that they can't use some others,
to wake up one day, lose all of their Specialization advantages,
and suddenly remember all the details of those other Schools.
I'm really not a big fan of prohibited schools in Pathfinder, as they really aren't prohibited. I have houseruled that those prohibited school spells are two levels higher for memorization, and spell trigger and completion items require a spellcraft check of DC 20 + spell level.
I like this fix immensely. I hated in 2e, 3e, and 3.5 that you could never cast the spells in opposition to your chosen specialty. This fix maintains the flavor that you're just not as talented with certain schools while not making you feel like you've been gimped.
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I don't like the idea of preparing Prohibited schools by "turning off" your school powers. I envision Specialization as a disparity in a caster's ability with different schools. It is silly that he can one day just stop specializing and for that day only cast a perfectly good spell he has never heretofore studied.
This is very difficult to role-play without coming up with a specific, in-game magical principle to explain it.
Let me clarify. I don't turn off school powers. I just add +2 to the level of the prohibited spells.
Myself I would take away the univislits "specialist" bonus spells for starters. Second I would bring back 3.5 style Prohibited schools. I would be open to feats allowing you to learn prohibited school spells however.
I posted this elsewhere, but I'll re-post it here:
Specialist Wizards used to be able to memorize extra spells because they made a huge sacrifice - they designated a few schools of magic as their "opposition schools" and were barred from casting spells from those schools forevermore. They were forced to sacrifice some of the Wizard's versatility in exchange for a little more firepower.
But now Specialist Wizards can cast spells from their Opposition Schools pretty easily. All they have to do is give up their "Specialist Bonus" for a day and they can cast spells from their Opposition Schools as well as any other Wizard. They don't even lose most of their special abilities - they just lose their Specialist Bonus. So you can have a Transmuter Specialist that can still make Telekinetic Attacks, Change Shape, and have a Fluid Form despite the fact that every spell that they have memorized belongs to one of their Opposition Schools.
To further muddy the situation, Specialist Wizards aren't even getting extra spells now - they are gaining spell-like abilities that they can select from the Wizard spell list. Unfortunately, the power of these abilities are tied to the Charisma of the Wizard, which means that in most cases, their DCs for these abilities are going to be pretty poor.
All in all, this new system seems like a lackluster attempt to let Specialist Wizards have their cake and eat it too.
My suggestion: Bring back the Specialist rules from the 3.5 SRD. Have them select two forbidden Opposition Schools and let them get to cast an extra spell per level. Or better yet, sit down and figure out what Opposition Schools best offset the strengths of a particular Specialist School, much like they did in D&D 3.0 and 2nd Edition AD&D.
Generalist Wizards shouldn't get bonus spells or bonus spell-like abilities at all. They aren't being forced to give anything up for these bonus spells. So why do they get them? You want to give all Wizards special abilities as they level? That's fine. But the extra spells for Generalist Wizards have got to go.
The 3.5 system was far better than the PF system.
I've always been a big fan of the Wizard having to choose between maximum versatility and extra spells/day.
Focused Specialist took this even further, which I also liked.
Prohibited should mean no, not under any circumstances.
To further muddy the situation, Specialist Wizards aren't even getting extra spells now - they are gaining spell-like abilities that they can select from the Wizard spell list. Unfortunately, the power of these abilities are tied to the Charisma of the Wizard, which means that in most cases, their DCs for these abilities are going to be pretty poor.
No, this is not correct.
Page 194:"Arcane schools grant one ability at 1st level, 8th level, and 20th level, as noted in their description. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are activated by using a standard action. The wizard’s level is used when determining the caster level of these effects. The DC for any save is equal to 10 + the spell’s level + the caster’s Charisma modifier. Arcane school powers that mimic spells are spell-like abilities, while the others are supernatural."
Only the abilities gained at 1st, 8th, and 20th level are "Charisma-based" supernatural or spell-like abilities.
Next paragraph:
"In addition to these abilities, each school also grants a number of bonus spells. Whenever a wizard attains the listed level, he can choose one spell from his school to prepare every day as a bonus spell. Instead of gaining a spell of the listed level, the wizard can instead choose a spell of a lower level, which he can then prepare twice per day (except for 2nd level). A universalist can choose spells from any school. Once chosen, these spells cannot be changed."
As you see, all the other are actual, real bonus spells.
Specialists are not better than what they were under the 3.5 ruleset. I think the fact that their bonus spells get locked in once chosen (and their delayed spell-level acquisition), and their specialists’ powers and abilities off-set the fact that they now have the ability to cast prohibited schools.
So all around, although I don’t like the opposition schools to be so trivially attainable (mere loss of a power for the day), I think the balance versus 3.5 is pretty good. And the design goal of rewarding wizards sticking with their base class is met.
However, I hate the mechanics. The prohibited school(s) should be more “prohibited”, otherwise, all specialists end up alike.
I would then suggest boosting up the specialist’s unique powers (and/or spells) to compensate for a more drastic prohibition system. The increase in spell-level to prepare opposition schools is a good suggestion. +1, +2… I didn’t look too much into it. But the powers would then have to be tuned up. That would give us more distinction between different specialists, maintain 3.5-PF power balance, and keep the incentives to stick to the base class. Win-Win-Win.
All of this, though, must also be compared to what generalists get under the present system. As far as I can tell, generalists and specialists seemed balanced under 3.5, but in PF, generalists just got powered up unlike the specialists. I understand the need to keep some sort of bonuses along the wizard’s level progression to keep him in the base class, but as of now it’s just too powerful not to be the obvious choice. Hence, I’d do the following:
1) Increase the penalty for preparing opposite schools, casting them off-scrolls, etc.
2) Boost the specialist’s power. Either through spell selection not fixed (like old 3.5) or through innovative flavorful abilities (my favorite, but needs work and balance)
3) Strip generalists of their bonus spells.
4) Make sure the specialists’ powers are at least as potent as the generalists. The present metamagic mastery and mastery of all schools have to be tuned down, or have the specialists’ abilities be on par with those.
cheers
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Prohibited should mean prohibited.
No preparation, no scrolls, no wands, no trigger or completion items slipping under the radar, just because they're shaped differently.
No bonuses for Universalists, at all.
If you can't work around the loss of two schools (and yes, it needs to be two schools, since one is a no-brainer), then you shouldn't be playing a specialist.
Maybe you can't Enchant someone, but you can trick them into doing what you want via Illusion?
Maybe you can't sap someone's strength via Necromancy, so why not Transmute them into a kobold?
It's called planning, strategy and tactics.
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Personally I like the +1 or +2 level adjustment on prohibitted school spells. I would advocate for a system where the caster takes one or two prohibited schools. If it is one school then all spells from that school are treated as 2 levels higher for that caster. If the specialist chooses two schools then both schools spells suffer a penalty of 1 level higher.
There should also be a caster level penalty on all effects of prohibitted schools. They aren't a wizard, they're a [insert specialist here]. They should take a -2 CL on a single school or a -1 CL on 2 schools spells. Durations, ranges, and damage would be lessened.
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Prohibited should mean prohibited.
QFT.
If we're going to really water it down, drop the label "prohibited" and call them "disfavored schools" or something along those lines.
But I agree with the notion that prohibited schools should stay prohibited. I know some don't like that, but that's the point of a trade-off. At most, I would allow a specialist wizard to cast a prohibited-school spell off of a scroll or other spell-completion item, provided he makes a tough Spellcraft check.