[Sorcerer] Celestial Bloodline weak against fiends


Classes: Sorcerer and Wizard


I've said it once and I'll say it again: the Celestial Bloodline 1st-level power should NOT do fire damage. Devils are immune and demons have resistance that sorcerers are unlikely to significantly overcome. So please, please, PLEASE change the damage type to "holy" or something that can smack some osyluth butt.

Dark Archive

Jim Callaghan wrote:
I've said it once and I'll say it again: the Celestial Bloodline 1st-level power should NOT do fire damage. Devils are immune and demons have resistance that sorcerers are unlikely to significantly overcome. So please, please, PLEASE change the damage type to "holy" or something that can smack some osyluth butt.

It could do some untyped damage, like those 'Light Rays' used by the Lantern Archons.

Or it could pick on something that nobody has a defense against, like Sonic, and represent the Sorcerer channeling the heavenly music of the celestial choir, to assault the eardrums of the unrighteous!


Jim Callaghan wrote:
I've said it once and I'll say it again: the Celestial Bloodline 1st-level power should NOT do fire damage. Devils are immune and demons have resistance that sorcerers are unlikely to significantly overcome. So please, please, PLEASE change the damage type to "holy" or something that can smack some osyluth butt.

I agree. Why not an equivalent to the cleric 3rd level spell "Searing light" ?

Light of Heavens (Su) : Starting at 1st level, you can unleash a ray of light from your open palm as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 ft as a ranged touch attack. Against evil creatures, this ray deals 1d6 points of damage + 1 for every two caster level you possess[...]

What do you think ? it's no longer "fire" damage and it's not holy either so it can't become too powerful against a creature with a "holy" vulnerability.

Bran

Silver Crusade

Jim Callaghan wrote:
I've said it once and I'll say it again: the Celestial Bloodline 1st-level power should NOT do fire damage. Devils are immune and demons have resistance that sorcerers are unlikely to significantly overcome. So please, please, PLEASE change the damage type to "holy" or something that can smack some osyluth butt.

I agree. The sorcerer becomes quite ineffective against evil outsiders (most of them have fire resistance or immunity.

Maybe just change them to divine damage (like half of flame strike does)?

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

jakoov wrote:
Jim Callaghan wrote:
I've said it once and I'll say it again: the Celestial Bloodline 1st-level power should NOT do fire damage. Devils are immune and demons have resistance that sorcerers are unlikely to significantly overcome. So please, please, PLEASE change the damage type to "holy" or something that can smack some osyluth butt.

I agree. The sorcerer becomes quite ineffective against evil outsiders (most of them have fire resistance or immunity.

Maybe just change them to divine damage (like half of flame strike does)?

That might be a reasonable compromise (half fire/half divine), but I think I like the "untyped ray of heavenly light" type of damage a little better for the celestial sorc. Save fire for the fire elemental sorc or the draconic sorc.

Heck, for that matter I'd almost rather see fire as an infernal sorc ability than a celestial one.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Set wrote:
Jim Callaghan wrote:

Or it could pick on something that nobody has a defense against, like Sonic, and represent the Sorcerer channeling the heavenly music of the celestial choir, to assault the eardrums of the unrighteous!

This is pretty cool. Although sonic damage is generally "downsized" to do less damage than other energy types since it's rare for monsters to be resistant... but then again, unlike other energy damages, it can be completely blocked by a 2nd level spell (silence).

Anyway, it's a cool idea.


Considering its lack of overall damage potential, and the relatively few numbers of creatures that have full on vulnerability to holy damage I don't think changing it to 'holy' is a bad idea. Economy of actions means usually this ability won't be used anyways, and when it is the sorcerer will be going, "Thank you great ancestors for granting me the ability to do SOMETHING here."


I am play testing one of these right now, however we just started. I could see how FIRE type would be a problem at higher levels regardless of the target's alignment.

I would also like to see this changed to HOLY or LIGHT type for the damage descriptor. SONIC might be cool and the angelic chorus description is feasible enough.

The LIGHT descriptor is used for spells such as 'Rainbow Bolt' and 'Rainbow Blast' in the Spell Compendium, and I thought for Searing Light, but I'm unsure. (currently at work)

The HOLY descriptor would work just fine as well. As someone else mentioned, it's not like half the Monster Manual is vulnerable to HOLY, I believe the number is likely under 2 dozen, at most all devil-kin. Big deal, the Celestial Sorcerer can deal 2d6 (+/- level bonus) to all devil-kin.... too much excitment for me! (Not to mention the scheduled 300+ monsters the Pathfinder Monster Compendium is promising.) I highly doubt an extra 1d6 (+/- level bonus) is going to even scratch what a Sorcerer's normal spells can actually do. Besides a 1st level Fighter type can make that damage look silly by just using a Greatsword or an Earth Breaker.

The SONIC descriptor would work well enough, not really my first choice, would definitely prefer one of the 2 above. Again, the angelic chorus is a good description of why this would be SONIC.


James Jacobs wrote:
Set wrote:
Jim Callaghan wrote:
Or it could pick on something that nobody has a defense against, like Sonic, and represent the Sorcerer channeling the heavenly music of the celestial choir, to assault the eardrums of the unrighteous!

For the record, it was Set who suggested sonic damage, not I. I cannot accept credit for someone else's idea.


It's described as a "ray of heavenly fire", and it heals good-aligned targets sort of like channel energy hurts undead and heals allies. It's hard for me to reconcile the image of fire with a healing power. I liked Set's idea of channeling celestial sound into a sonic ray. Applying the holy descriptor to half the damage would let some effect penetrate a silence spell. On the other hand, if a good-aligned target cannot hear, the healing power would be cut in half. The power seems pretty unique that way.


I dont see the issue, heavenly fire is an old, old concept. May be it should have an over comes DR rule in there or maybe not, I mean do Infernal bloodline or abyssal do extra damage?.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
I dont see the issue, heavenly fire is an old, old concept.

Sure, but healing you? Maybe for a party of salamanders. Why not make it a ray of healing acid?

Liberty's Edge

I am in agreement. Leave Fire to the Elementalists, it should be Holy damage.

I am a bit concerned about the detect evil aspect of the power also. I like that it heals good characters, but it sort of becomes a Detect Evil ray. I shoot him, does he take damage or is he healed?


minkscooter wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
I dont see the issue, heavenly fire is an old, old concept.
Sure, but healing you? Maybe for a party of salamanders. Why not make it a ray of healing acid?

It is indeed an old, old concept.

The most recent use of this outside of D&D that I've seen was in "City of Villains". The 'Corruptor' is the only character on the villain-side of the game that has anything remotely resembling a healer, being Fire-based. I believe the first 2 powers are called 'Warmth' (AoE heal) and 'Cauterize' (single med. range heal) The power is ugly, distracting and annoying... not to mention potentially game crashing for those who don't have higher-end videocards or alot of RAM. (so I've been told)

So while I agree it's an old, old concept, it is hard to envision and should be left to Avatars & Deities IMO, the Celestial Bloodline version should just be HOLY or LIGHT.


Brutesquad07 wrote:

I am a bit concerned about the detect evil aspect of the power also. I like that it heals good characters, but it sort of becomes a Detect Evil ray. I shoot him, does he take damage or is he healed?

That is somthing I haven't thought of from a 'rules lawyer' point of view, however I do find it frustrating firing the ray at random NPCs hoping it heals them or does nothing, instead of the possible "OOPS! You fried him!" that's likely to occur at some point. (Yes, I am currently play-testing one of these. Only level 2 atm.)

Athough, if the Paladin can do it 'At Will' as a 'MOVE' action unnoticed, he still wins out... since the 'Heaven Fire' is a 'STANDARD' action, as well as a physical manifestation of light/fire/ray and the potential of Kentucky Frying someone of importance. With great power, comes great responsibility! *laughs* "I fried him GOOD!"

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Why not just have the fire damage be "good-aligned" such that it overcomes the Devil and Demon's damage resistance? And, because it's good-aligned fire, it supersedes their fire resistance or immunities as well...

My two-cents,
--Neil


NSpicer wrote:

Why not just have the fire damage be "good-aligned" such that it overcomes the Devil and Demon's damage resistance? And, because it's good-aligned fire, it supersedes their fire resistance or immunities as well...

My two-cents,
--Neil

Because damage reduction is not the issue; energy resistance is. And energy resistance is not overcome by anything except a large amount of damage (from which the appropriate amount of resistance is subtracted).

And nothing overcomes immunity.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Jim Callaghan wrote:
Because damage reduction is not the issue; energy resistance is. And energy resistance is not overcome by anything except a large amount of damage (from which the appropriate amount of resistance is subtracted)....And nothing overcomes immunity.

I understand that. What I'm suggesting however is that a Devil or Demon is immune (or resistant) to fire. But they're not immune (or resistant) to good-aligned fire...or "heavenly" fire, if you will.

Characterize it however you want..."divine" fire, a "heavenly light" that burns the wicked, etc. The point being, they should reclassify the "heavenly fire" bloodline power of Celestial-descended sorcerers such that it's good-aligned "fire" that isn't your standard type of fire. Hence, no immunity or resistance from evil-aligned beings. Other than that, it heals the good/righteous and has no effect upon beings of neutrality. That's how I'd houserule, at least...

Another two-cents,
--Neil


But on the other hand, what exactly is the difference between "heavenly fire" and "holy" damage? Sound like the same thing to me.

I kind of like the sonic idea, though -- the angelic choir bit is pretty evocative. :)

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