Jason posted in another thread that he wants more diversity between the wizard and the sorcerer. I agree with him on this. So with that in mind I created this thread... If you have an idea to change the sorcerer or the way his bloodlines work -- not his spell progression or times per day Please feel free to add it here.
So I sat down and asked myself what I saw when I thought of a sorcerer, here's my answer:
A sorcerer gives off magic much like magical beasts and dragons do, magic is a part of them that flows freely through and from them. With time and training a sorcerer learns how to concentrate this magic in specific effects, and how to tinker with those effects in ways that most wizards would say are impossible. This is becuase of the sorcerer's inate connect to magic. It would be pointless to ask a sorcerer how he casts his spells or uses his powers, he couldn't answer, for him it's like moving his arm or leg, he just does it. When he needs his spell to act in a different way than normal he just practices, much like learning to do a backflip, until it works. This is not to say that a sorcerer is limitless. Unlike the wizard a sorcerer will only have so many spells and abilities, he can't learn more or study to improve his abilities, they are natural and organic. The sorcerer's powers are also influenced by the creatures that infused his blood with their magic in the distant past -- a sorcerer of celetial discent has different abilities than one desentant from dragons for example. However the hybird nature of the sorcerer also enables a wide range of variability even among those of same general disant through natural mutations caused by the magic itself coursing through his veins.
I see the sorcerer as the specialist that the wizard can't match. Just as the wizard is more versitle he relies on the sorcerer to show him where his theories about magic are worry by doing things the wizard can't explain in theory.
A sorcerer should be able to simply see magic auras and magic around him. He lives in a magical world, I would say by level 2 he should be able to detect magic and auras as a standard action without spells at all (kind of like the paladin detect evil only bigger).
A sorcerer should be able to change energy types depending on his bloodline, a celestial sorcerer should eventually cast positive energy fireballs instead of 'fire' fireballs, while an undead bloodline might be able to do the same with negative energy.
Bloodline powers should follow the creature abilities of the bloodlines they come from:
Celestials get the following, Tongues, Aura of Menance, Resistance to electricity and cold, like the archons, angels, eladrin, and guardianals do.
A sorcerer should have a "magic energy pool" with which he can alter his spells on a whim... he's magic is natural and this should be reflected in how he can do different things than a wizard, as he levels he should be able to learn new ways to alter his spells (maybe just starting off with heighten spell (i.e. he stuffs more energy into the spell), and going with area alterations on AOE spells, energy alterations on elemented spells, differenting targets on targetted spells) much like a rogue gains talents.
Sorcerers should use the same casting system as mages from Monty Cooks World of Darkness (just toned down a little bit).
I know nothing of that system, care to explain a little bit, or show how it could be applied here?
Ok here is my 'base' sorcerer idea, this is the chasis that bloodlines could be attached to:
1. Bonus feat (Eschew materials), Bloodline power
2. Detect magic at will
3. Bloodline power
4. Sorcerer specialty (-1 to min 0 to metamagic enhancement level)
5.
6. Bloodline power
7. Bonus Feat
8. Sorcerer specialty (-1 to min 0 to metamagic enhancement level)
9. Bloodline power
10.
11.
12. Bloodline Power
13. Sorcerer specialty (can double up on one metamagic now)
14. Bonus Feat
15. Bloodline power
16.
17. Sorcerer specialty (can double up on one metamagic now)
18. Bloodline Power
19.
20. Metamorphisis, Sorcerer specialty (can triple up on one metamagic)
The bonus feats would be chosen from the following list:
Magical aptitude, improved counterspell, any metamagic, spell penetration, greater spell penetration
The sorcerer specialty could only be used once on any given metamagic feat, and cold only reduce the cost to 0, never below.
Bloodline powers:
Sample bloodline -- Celestial
1st level bloodline: Darkvision +30 ft.
3rd level bloodline: divine conversion (1/4 spell damage is divine); Tongues
6th level bloodline: Aura (menance); Resistance electricity, cold 10
9th level bloodline: Flight (average, 30ft)
12th level bloodline: divine conversion (1/2 spell damage is divine); resistance electricity, cold 15 Aura (circle of protection 10 ft radius)
15th level bloodline: Flight (good, 60ft)
18th level bloodline: Spell resistance 10 + class level, Divine conversion (full damage conversion)
20th level Bloodline: Metamorphisis, choose one of the following gain all traits for the chosen type: Angel, Eladrin, Archon, Guardinal
Sorcerer specialty (can double up on one metamagic now)
What do you mean by this?
I mean instead of just taking another metamagic feat and treating it's adjustment as one level lower, the sorcerer could choose one he's already taken (say empower spell) and lower it another level. So the sorcerer would have a choice, make one high metamagic much lower, or get the lesser metamagic's at next to nothing.
At 20th level the sorcerer could have one metamagic reduced up to three times.
I meant to add the celestial fire class ability in at level 1 too.
I think the aura's and celestial fire should work accordingly:
Celestial fire -- d6 divine touch attack, + 1d6 per spell level sacrificed 30 ft range, + 10 ft per spell level sacrificed(i.e. you could spend a 2nd level spell slot to increase the damage to 3d6 total with a range of 50 ft). Otherwise works like the beta version
Aura of Menance -- 10 ft radius DC 10 + Cha Mod. + 1 DC and + 10 ft radius per spell level sacrificed (i.e. spending a 2nd level spell to power this would raise the DC by 2 and the radius by 20 feet), for a number of rounds equal to the spell level sacrificed.
I think the sorcerer should be able to sacrifice more than one spell slot at a time for these abilities, so at first level a sorcerer could dump 2 first level spell slots into his celestial fire to have it do 3d6 damage, out to 50 ft range.
Ah, I took your (-1 to min 0 to metamagic enhancement level) to mean they could apply it to all their metamagic feats. You're saying they get to lower one feat they know by 1 and then later by another 1 or 2.
I'm with you now. And now that I am that seems much less game breaking than I originally took it for.
yeah basically they can specialise in a metamagic reducing it's cost, they still have to take the feat, but this gives them more reason to do so.
I would also include the scaling "eschew materials" ideas, and probably maintain the extra time for using metamagics (as they could do more for the sorcerer than before).
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Hmm... good ideas here.
I like the idea of a spontaneous energy substitution with an appropriate type from the bloodline.
A more direct tie into magic is good, perhaps allowing the ability to sense magical fields at low levels, advancing into scrutinizing and identifying magic at mid levels and then snuffing or subduing magics at higher levels could be good - detect magic, identify and dispel/anti-magic, the latter two at most a few times per day. Maybe as far as some spell resistance or damage reduction that is only effective against magical damage? The ability to drain charges from items and refresh spell-slots?
Perhaps go as far as having custom spell lists for each bloodline, drawing from all of the spells, not just those the wizard gets access too? This would give lots of individual flavour to the bloodlines, but would probably take up too many pages.
If sorcerors are innate magicians, then they have not devoted their early years to study - so what did they do? I'd say that they need to be more rounded that a wizard. Perhaps a single martial weapon proficiency, or an extra assignable class-skill, something so that we can say "This guy is a caravan guard with infernal sorcerous powers" or "This gal's a pirate with fey sorcerous powers".
I get the feel that sorcerors would have been run-of-the-mill people until the powers of their bloodline manifested. That in itself provides a strong role-playing hook for people to base a character on.
Just a couple of rambling thoughts.
Not bad ones at that, I think a scaling sort of magic sense makes sense too. I wouldn't mind seeing a few more skill points coming the sorcerer's way to show he comes from a less "ivory tower" background, but I really doubt Jason would be up to that...
Maybe a skill knowledge thing, where the sorcerer automatically gets a skill point in his bloodline's skill each level? I know it's kind of stepping on the bard's toes, but I'm only talking about one skill here, and it would represent the sorcerer's inate knowledge gleamed from his ancestory.
Give Sorcerer Shape Changing powers similar to the Druid's that are connected to his Bloodline. Then at lvl 20 let him turn into some form permanently.
Change his BAB to medium and his HD to d8.
Create a special list of spells available to sorcerer's to choose from for spells known.
Those are great ideas Archangel, I was already looking at something off of similar roots with the celestial bloodline (above post). What do you think about the metamagic ideas presented here?
These are some of the houserules we use for Sorcerers.
In the setting we play in, Wizards require much more complex mechanisms for casting, which "tames" the energy so that it is more controlled.
Sorcerers tap directly into ambient arcane power, and as a result are more like Fey or Dragons wielding spell-like abilities.
Eschew materials at first level (I was tickled pink that Pathfinder added this).
Able to cast in light armor due to simpler somatic components.
Detect magic @ will.
Spontaniouse meta-magic.
I really like the idea of tinkering with sorcerer, but the trouble is balance. He cannot be better than the Wizard or why play one? For example I love the idea of a sorcerer getting a little armor, maybe go up a hit die, and getting a martial weapon, or even better the natural attacks that some get get now through claws and rays and such. I think this would make the sorcerer unique, it would fit his supposed origin, and would create that fighter/mage base class we all have been whining for. The problem is what does he give up for those add ons. I really like the new ability/origin trees, they add alot of RP to a new character and make for some really cool builds. I dont want to further remove any casting ability from them as they are already giving up alot of progression for the versatility. They dont have great saves or skill points so you cant trim them further. I am at a loss. I am thinking perhaps leave casting saves and skills as is, add rogue bab, and hp, allow casting in light armor and alter the abilities tied to background so that all the ones that dont get a natural or ray attack get one martial weapon. I am just not sure this wont unballance the class, despite the fact it sounds like something I would love to play.
I think the aura's and celestial fire should work accordingly:
Celestial fire -- d6 divine touch attack, + 1d6 per spell level sacrificed 30 ft range, + 10 ft per spell level sacrificed(i.e. you could spend a 2nd level spell slot to increase the damage to 3d6 total with a range of 50 ft). Otherwise works like the beta version
Aura of Menance -- 10 ft radius DC 10 + Cha Mod. + 1 DC and + 10 ft radius per spell level sacrificed (i.e. spending a 2nd level spell to power this would raise the DC by 2 and the radius by 20 feet), for a number of rounds equal to the spell level sacrificed.
I like these abilities, because they make use of sorcerer's spellcasting unlike most bloodline abilities. These powers made made me realize what's been bothering me about PFBeta sorcerer bloodline abilities. One could easily give them to any class and they'd work pretty much the same way as they do for sorcerer (I'm talking about mechanics here, not fluff). Sorcerers are arcane spellcasters and their bloodline abilities should show that. In my mind, a good bloodline ability should work with casting a spell instead of giving an alternative to casting a spell.
Here's an example of how a bloodline ablility could work with spellcasting in a way that does not force sorcerer to burn spells per day to power bloodline ablilities.
Celestial fire:
As in PFBeta, but at certain level (3? 5? 7?) certain times per day ( 3/day? 5/day? at will?) a sorcerer can infuse a spell with ranged touch attack with celestial fire. If the ranged touch attack hits, the target is effected by the spell normally and also takes the effect of celestial fire.
Actually, almost every bloodline's 1st level ability could be modified this way. Ranged touch spells could be infused with Aberrant, Celestial and Elemental 1st level powers, Melee touch spells could be infused with Destined, Fey, Infernal and Undead 1st level powers, and Draconic and Abyssal sorcerers could substitute full attacks with claws for the touch that touch spells require (That is, cast the touch spell as a full round action. Instead of a touch attack to deliver the spell, make two claw attacks. If either attack hits, the spell is delivered to the target in addition to normal claw damage. If both claws hit, the target takes the effect of the spell only once.) Arcane bloodline wouldn't benefit from this, but familiars can already deliver touch spells.
These changes wouldn't add drastically to the power of sorcerers, as the 1st level at will abilities aren't really powerful after the first few levels. Instead, these abilities will add a touch of their bloodline on the spells a sorcerer casts. An elemental(fire) sorcerer's ray of exhaustion would burn the target in addition to exhausting them. An undead sorcerer's shocking grasp could chill in addition to shocking the enemy.
Does this make sense to you?
Makes sense, but I think some of the intent of those bloodline abilities is to provide a resonable attack ability when the spells are exhausted and your method would completely repeal that intent.
Not really. The spells with the right delivery method a sorcerer casts would be powered up somewhat, but when the sorcerer runs out of spells he could fall back to using the 1st level power without infusing it with anything. (Note: I've yet to see a sorcerer of 6th level or higher run out of spells.)
Sorry, yeah in that case it does make sense. I didnt see where they could still use the ability seperately.
Ah. That takes a bit detective work to find. The part where I said that is bloded below:
[blah blah blah]
Celestial fire:
As in PFBeta, but at certain level[blah blah blah]
Now that I look at it again, it's not that apparent that my idea is not a replacement but an addition.
Well what I have at the 3rd, 12th, and 18th level are divine conversion elements, where you change part of the damage from a spell into divine energy, which would not be stopped by fire, electirical, or cold resistances. I agree the bloodlines should either use spell slots to power up, or alter the spells that the sorcerer uses.
So I sat down and asked myself what I saw when I thought of a sorcerer, here's my answer:
I see it very differently. I see a sorcerer as a type of hedge wizard. Someone who has no control over what he can do at least until he does it. His abilities are "random" and not chosen by himself thorugh some kind of training or study. A sorcerer gets what destiny and bloodline has decided to give him (i.e. this does not mean that his abilities change from day to day, only that his abilities are not set in stone from the beginning. But once they manifest, they stay). A novice sorcerer cannot control his magic very good and only time and use will give him enough expereince to handle his blood-powers accompanied magical talents.
Don't know how to represent this, but Bloodlines are a good start. I would add something like spell chains, that is higher level spells are assigned according to the sorcerer's lower level spells. Wonky example if the sorcerer chooses Burning Hands as a known spell, he gets Fireball (at the appropriate level) as a known spell.
What i would't do is to introduce some type of check to let fly his spells or a random table to roll on when a spell is cast to determine actual effect (2nd Edition Hazadeur (Wild Mage in english ?) anyone ?)
perhaps time and practice is more of what I meant to say.
I agree they don't understand how they do it, but that means they aren't bound by any laws that say, "you can't do it this way." Kind of like having legs and arms. Most people throw with their arms and walk with their legs... but you can practice and walk on your hands. Practice more and you can kick something with just as much force and accuracy as someone can throw something. I see the sorcerer in the same light. The spells are their arms and legs, through practice, and nothing telling them they can't do it, they figure out new ways of using their spells.
Like walking on their hands.
Or......Sorcerer's can be master counterspellers due to their spntaneous casting if you use the counterpselling system I proposed in the other thread. They will still be good at it if you use the other system too.
I made a few tweeks to sorcerers in my Age of Worms campaign. One thing I did was to give them an ability called spell breach. It grants a +1 to overcome spell resistance at 4th, 12th, and 20th levels. This bonus stacked with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration and made sorcerers real good at finding weaknesses in spell resistance.
Sorcerers could also sacrifice XP to cast spells with expensive components/foci beyond what Eschew Materials covered. For Pathfinder, I would let them burn hp instead. the cost was at a rate of 1 XP per 25 gp. So, using hp instead, this would let a sorcerer cast stoneskin by burning 6 hp if he no longer has the components - esentually, blood for power.
Of course, since hp can be healled by magic, it would be best to limit the use to a few times per day or greatly increase the cost. Another option would be temporary ability damage (at a rate of 1 point per 100 gp).
I like that option:
I'll take it one step farther... the damage is healing resistant, and requires a Caster level check DC 15 + spell level + HP lost to heal with healing magic.
I would still prefer my scaling cost reduction, but I see this as a very strong and valid alternative.