Hand of the Apprentice


Classes: Sorcerer and Wizard

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Three months now we've been waiting for answers on how exactly Hand of the Apprentice is intended to work. Three months we've been playtesting whatever we thought was intended, which may or may not be what actually WAS intended. Love to give feedback on the ability, but really, we have no idea if we're using it right.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/playtest/mageHandHandOfTheApprenticeHowDoesItWork

Obvious questions summarized:
1} can you manifest the hand anywhere within its ability or must be be in your square?
2} how much can it actually move?
3} does it return the item it drew to its sheath, or must you have an empty hand?
4} what is the actual maximum range?
5} what if the caster moves himself away from his HotA?
6} concentration is a standard action and so is attacking, so how can HotA as written actually be used?

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Anguish wrote:

Three months now we've been waiting for answers on how exactly Hand of the Apprentice is intended to work. Three months we've been playtesting whatever we thought was intended, which may or may not be what actually WAS intended. Love to give feedback on the ability, but really, we have no idea if we're using it right.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/playtest/mageHandHandOfTheApprenticeHowDoesItWork

Obvious questions summarized:
1} can you manifest the hand anywhere within its ability or must be be in your square?
2} how much can it actually move?
3} does it return the item it drew to its sheath, or must you have an empty hand?
4} what is the actual maximum range?
5} what if the caster moves himself away from his HotA?
6} concentration is a standard action and so is attacking, so how can HotA as written actually be used?

First off, no need to put my name in the thread.. I try to read all of the threads, so it is generally unnecessary. Now on to your questions...

1. If it is drawing your weapon, it must be in your square or adjacent to you, otherwise it works as mage hand.
2. As a move action, you can move it 15 feet, just like mage hand.
3. It only returns the item to you, it does not resheathe it.
4. 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels, just like mage hand.
5. If you move out of range, the hand disappears, dropping its item, just like mage hand.
6. This is an error, if you concentrate on it, you can make an attack with it for free.

Any more questions? I am looking to tighten up this particular power as I know it can be confusing.

Let me know.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Dark Archive

1) 5 lb limit like Mage Hand?

2) Are the weapons attacks counted as melee attacks, as if wielded by a magical hand in that space, or are they counted as ranged attacks, which would have a -4 penalty to strike a target in melee combat with an ally?

3) Is Line of sight / effect required? Can the weapon be remote-controlled on the other side of a wall of allies (by a Wizard or Magic Domain Cleric at the back of the party, for instance)?

4) Can the Hand 'attack' with a non-proficient item such as a Thunderstone, flask of Acid, Alchemical Fire or Holy Water, Tanglefoot Bag, etc.? 'Cause it would be one *heck* of a delivery mechanism for those sorts of things, probably far more effective than hacking away with the best 5 lb weapon you can find (longsword, available to all elves and humans)...

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Set wrote:

1) 5 lb limit like Mage Hand?

2) Are the weapons attacks counted as melee attacks, as if wielded by a magical hand in that space, or are they counted as ranged attacks, which would have a -4 penalty to strike a target in melee combat with an ally?

3) Is Line of sight / effect required? Can the weapon be remote-controlled on the other side of a wall of allies (by a Wizard or Magic Domain Cleric at the back of the party, for instance)?

4) Can the Hand 'attack' with a non-proficient item such as a Thunderstone, flask of Acid, Alchemical Fire or Holy Water, Tanglefoot Bag, etc.? 'Cause it would be one *heck* of a delivery mechanism for those sorts of things, probably far more effective than hacking away with the best 5 lb weapon you can find (longsword, available to all elves and humans)...

1. Yes.

2. Melee attacks.
3. Line of sight and effect are required.
4. This is unclear... and I am thinking that it should be limited to melee weapons only, making this issue moot.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Does it return the weapon instantly? Or is it limited to 15' per round?

Can combat feats be channeled through? Sneak Attack? Trip attacks?

Can it attack on the first turn?

Are you planning on keeping INT bonus for damage? I mean this is a pretty darn powerful ability with a longsword.


Which of these are valid? (Elf Wizard, w/base move 30')

1a) Wizard moves 30', casts HOTA, moves HOTA 15', attacks with HOTA.
1b) Wizard moves 15', casts HOTA, moves HOTA 15', attacks with HOTA.
1c) Wizard casts HOTA, moves HOTA 15', attacks with HOTA.
1d) Wizard casts HOTA, attacks with HOTA.
1e) HOTA cannot attack the round it is cast.
2a) Wizard moves 30', concentrates on HOTA, moves HOTA 15' attacks with HOTA.
2b) Wizard moves 15', concentrates on HOTA, moves HOTA 15' attacks with HOTA.
2c) Wizard concentrates on HOTA, moves HOTA 15' attacks with HOTA.
3a) Wizard places equipped weapon into Backpack, then casts HOTA, moves HOTA 15', attacks with HOTA.
3b) Wizard places equipped weapon into Backpack, then casts HOTA, attacks with HOTA.

*What are the rules for Attacks of Opportunity against me when casting/concentrating with this (SU) power?
*Do I require an open hand for the item to return to me?
*Do weapons get dropped on the ground?
*How far can the hand move when returning?
*Can the weapon be grappled?
*Can the weapon be "Shattered?"
*If I fail a concentration check, does the weapon drop in it's spot or does it get returned?
*If I take a level of Fighter and become proficient in a weapon my Wizard can't use, may use it with HOTA? (Cleave?)
*If I have a weapon equipped, can the HOTA use that weapon instead?

More questions incoming later.


Thanks for getting into the details on this with us Jason. And in general for pushing PFRPG. So far, so fun.

1} To revisit the "maximum range" question...
"The hand can be directed to make a single attack against a foe within 30 feet..."
Is the intent that a 10th level wizard can move their HotA 50ft from themselves, they can't attack with it due to it being beyond 30ft? Or should the 30ft reference be deprecated entirely? (We've been disregarding the 30ft reference for simplicity's sake.)

2} Can HotA cohabit spaces with other bodies? PCs? Enemies? (Since it's not distracting enough to get a flank or anything, we've been allowing it.)

3} Can HotA pass through occupied squares? PCs? Enemies? (We've played "yes, but it provokes an AoO against the weapon".)

4} Is a weapon controlled by HotA considered attended or unattended?

5} Can you ready an attack with HotA? If the readied condition doesn't occur, you'll have missed your concentration for the round so it might drop. Might be reasonable to concentrate as a free and attack as a standard instead of the other way around, or make it last Concentration + 1 round. (This hasn't come up yet, but I think readying would be a Good Thing.)

6} RAW a Medium creature could use a Large (or Huge for that matter) weapon for this attack. Do you care? (Nobody's reached for The Cheese, but I'd probably limit it to size-appropriate or smaller.)

7} How does HotA interact with magic weapons? A +1 longsword for instance might get the enhancement bonus to both attack and damage, or just damage, or potentially neither depending on your intent. Flaming? (Hasn't come up yet either, but I'd probably include all applicable magic effects, again for simplicity.)

8} If you are invisible, does your HotA weapon remain invisible as well until you attack, despite distance (like a familiar's share spell?) (I'd probably let it stay invisible yet again for consistency.)

General comments:


  • HotA is useful while not stupidly so. Don't despair at tightening the description... it's flexibility and uniqueness are what makes it interesting.
  • A small set of feats that improve school/bloodline basic abilities would be a welcome thing, making them useful and practical at higher levels.
  • I'd probably not limit it to melee weapons, but making weapons that can be operated in one hand would be reasonable. No longbows. Crossbow? Sure, but you'll have to reload it by hand. Acid flasks? Absolutely. This would also eliminate human wizards who pick up Weapon Proficiency(greatsword) as their bonus proficiency just 'cuz.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

cephyn wrote:

Does it return the weapon instantly? Or is it limited to 15' per round?

Can combat feats be channeled through? Sneak Attack? Trip attacks?

Can it attack on the first turn?

Are you planning on keeping INT bonus for damage? I mean this is a pretty darn powerful ability with a longsword.

These are the sorts of questions that need clarification. Thanks for posting them.

I would say that the weapon returns instantly if the effect ends, otherwise it has to move.

As for other abilities working through it, I would have to say no on this front, as it is a combo of mage hand and spiritual weapon.

I am not sure if it should be able to attack on the first round. Thoughts?

I am considering ditching the Int bonus on damage.. it is a bit too good.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

delslow wrote:

Which of these are valid? (Elf Wizard, w/base move 30')

1a) Wizard moves 30', casts HOTA, moves HOTA 15', attacks with HOTA.
1b) Wizard moves 15', casts HOTA, moves HOTA 15', attacks with HOTA.
1c) Wizard casts HOTA, moves HOTA 15', attacks with HOTA.
1d) Wizard casts HOTA, attacks with HOTA.
1e) HOTA cannot attack the round it is cast.
2a) Wizard moves 30', concentrates on HOTA, moves HOTA 15' attacks with HOTA.
2b) Wizard moves 15', concentrates on HOTA, moves HOTA 15' attacks with HOTA.
2c) Wizard concentrates on HOTA, moves HOTA 15' attacks with HOTA.
3a) Wizard places equipped weapon into Backpack, then casts HOTA, moves HOTA 15', attacks with HOTA.
3b) Wizard places equipped weapon into Backpack, then casts HOTA, attacks with HOTA.

*What are the rules for Attacks of Opportunity against me when casting/concentrating with this (SU) power?
*Do I require an open hand for the item to return to me?
*Do weapons get dropped on the ground?
*How far can the hand move when returning?
*Can the weapon be grappled?
*Can the weapon be "Shattered?"
*If I fail a concentration check, does the weapon drop in it's spot or does it get returned?
*If I take a level of Fighter and become proficient in a weapon my Wizard can't use, may use it with HOTA? (Cleave?)
*If I have a weapon equipped, can the HOTA use that weapon instead?

More questions incoming later.

1E

2C

I am not sure what you are getting at with 3A and 3B

As for your other thoughts...

The same as any other SU power
Yes
Only if you cannot grab them
Back to you is the effect ends, otherwise 15ft per round (this should be changed as it is probably too confusing.
No
Yes
Right now, it would be returned, but this too should change
Yes (no to Cleave, as noted above)
Yes...

As it currently stands, there needs to be some clarification and rewording of this ability. Let me try and take a crack at it over the next few days and get back to all of you.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


My wizard player is already considering ditching a generalist wizard for a specialist because he has to have a full round free to call the hand into being and move it to attack.

I think being able to attack right away might make it feel a bit better to him, but I don't have a dog in the fight one way or the other.


I think I would vote against attacking on the first round.
A levitating sword coming in your direction has an intimidation factor on it's own at low levels.
Making it attack on the first round is basically the same as making the Generalist Wizard a good (displaced) "melee" combatant at early levels.
I don't know why that should be a goal here.

More Questions:
Can Maneuvers be attempted by the object/weapon?
Will we see some "CMB" equivalent for situations where opponents attempt to 'disarm' the Hand of the Apprentice, or Pin it?
It seems that there should be two separate Maximum Weights:
one if you're just moving an object, and one if you need to swing it as a weapon.
a normals character's sword weighs much less than an object they could hypothetically move (slowly)

Dark Archive

Two thoughts:
I'd argue that Sneak Attack, which after can be used with any other spell/spell-like ability that requires an attack roll, should work with HotA. (and, in full disclosure, nerfing that ability would throw a wrench in my plans to have a generalist/arcane trickster harry my PCs from the shadows with an HotA starknife ...)

Second, I suggested in an older thread that HotA get Int to hit and 1/2 level to damage. This makes it less dominating at early levels (when an elf wizard, frex, likely is wielding a longsword with +4 to hit/damage) while making it more relevant at higher levels. If Jason makes the "no attack on first round" change, I don't think it's too powerful at all.


Oh, a question that came up in my playtest.

If there is room for the weapon to do so, can it go up, say, five feet or so, and then get a +1 bonus for attacking from higher ground?

Obviously in rooms with lower ceilings, this wouldn't be possible, but if the wizard has movement left to move it up, would this work?


KnightErrantJR wrote:
My wizard player is already considering ditching a generalist wizard for a specialist because he has to have a full round free to call the hand into being and move it to attack.

I'd have issues with having to burn an entire round just preparing to concentrate on the spell. It seems clumsy.


We also need to know how attacks against the HotA are resolved.

If the Hand itself can be hurt, does it have HP, AC, etc?

If only the weapon can be attacked, is it Sundering? AoO?

-----------------------

On a different note, I would like to request that HotA should be less complicated. Do we really need all this? My group has just been treating it like a "Weapon Ray" while we waited for an official response, and I rather like the simplicity of it. The laundry list of questions is off-putting for ANY ability, much less the one that 80% of wizards have now acquired retroactively.


toyrobots wrote:

We also need to know how attacks against the HotA are resolved.

If the Hand itself can be hurt, does it have HP, AC, etc?

If only the weapon can be attacked, is it Sundering? AoO?

-----------------------

On a different note, I would like to request that HotA should be less complicated. Do we really need all this? My group has just been treating it like a "Weapon Ray" while we waited for an official response, and I rather like the simplicity of it. The laundry list of questions is off-putting for ANY ability, much less the one that 80% of wizards have now acquired retroactively.

I agree that its probably just too freakin complicated. Unless Jason has a miracle rewrite, this ability will either have to go by the wayside or spawn a rulebook of its own.


I have a player wanting to retrain as an evoker so he can just shoot his ray instead of keeping track of all of the movement and when he can attack on what rounds and the like. He liked the concept of the item floating around and hitting things, but isn't a big fan of all of the steps in between.

Sovereign Court

I like the power for flavour. Some simpler rules on how to use it, however, would be cool.

Dark Archive

I like the idea of a dancing weapon power, but it just doesn't scream 'magic' to me, and, dayum, if it doesn't cause a lot of rules questions...

I'd prefer, at this point, some sort of force blast or something.

Or, to go totally wonky, give the Universalist the ability to prepare twice as many Cantrips (or +Int Mod cantrips). Instead of one at will ability, the Generalist gets three or four weaker at will Cantrips. He won't get 'Hand of the Apprentice,' but he will get Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, etc. usable at will to compensate. It won't have an attack utility (beyond at will Acid Splash, Daze and / or Ray of Frost being more likely to be available), but it will have a far more 'generic' utility, and guarantee that the Universal Wizard will always have *something* he could be doing in a round, even if it's a non-traditional action like using Mage Hand to float a flask of Alchemist's Fire from his hand to 15 ft. away, and then dropping it on a foe. A smart or competent Universalist might even play up to his 'universalist' title and have one Cantrip of each School prepared!

Regardless of whether Hand of the Apprentice works as a Universalist Wizard power, Hand of the Acolyte, for Magic Domain Clerics, feels even *less* appropriate. The only 'use Wizard items as a Wizard of 1/2 your Cleric level' thing was vastly cooler ('cause Wand of Spectral Hand + Cure / Inflict Wounds = Fun), although I'd be fine with various other options for the Magic Domain, like the ability to prepare a Wizard spell (assuming spellbook availability!) in a Cleric slot one level higher or something (sort of like 'Anyspell in a box').


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Let me try and take a crack at it over the next few days and get back to all of you.

How goes the "cracking"?

Regardless of what you do with the spell, I'd like to emphasize that doing "nothing" for a round is not a fun mechanic.

Dark Archive

delslow wrote:
Regardless of what you do with the spell, I'd like to emphasize that doing "nothing" for a round is not a fun mechanic.

Word. Sentence and paragraph even.

If the power needs to be balanced, dropping the Int modifier to Atk/Dam is way, way better than making it have a built-in one round stand-around-and-do-nothing tax. A damage-mod-less version might suck compared to the various scaling ranged touch attack rays (or even a crossbow, most likely), but the Mage Hand itself has some minor utility.

Still, I think this is a power that is both unthematic and mechanically awkward. Something else should be considered.

Sovereign Court

I wouldn't drop the Int mod to hit, otherwise it'll quickly become a completely useless power (in fact, it might start that way). Dropping or halving Int to damage might be better, although the fact that the thing has to move to get there, so wasting time, seems to me to be a significant disadvantage to go with the advantage of the extra damage. As you say, though, doing nothing gets old. I like it themewise, though. A portable always-there mage hand that will actually do something cool. Sweet.

Dark Archive

Bagpuss wrote:
I wouldn't drop the Int mod to hit, otherwise it'll quickly become a completely useless power (in fact, it might start that way). Dropping or halving Int to damage might be better, although the fact that the thing has to move to get there, so wasting time, seems to me to be a significant disadvantage to go with the advantage of the extra damage.

Int mod to hit and damage, but limited by class level? So an 18 Int Wizard will only have +1/+1 at 1st level, increasing to his full +4/+4 at 4th and higher levels.

That balances with the scaling of the other Ray attacks for other Specialization schools.

Sovereign Court

Set wrote:


Int mod to hit and damage, but limited by class level? So an 18 Int Wizard will only have +1/+1 at 1st level, increasing to his full +4/+4 at 4th and higher levels.

That balances with the scaling of the other Ray attacks for other Specialization schools.

But the other ray attacks are ranged touch, so surely they get full Dex to hit? I'd let the Int bonus be to hit, but the damage could certainly scale.


After an evening with a wizard and a mystic theurge, the hand of apprentice has been heavily used.
With a 22 Int, +6 to hit and damage, it is really really good. They're both human, and so have chosen longsword proficiency.
This ability seems really powerful, and not really dependent on the level.
Even the players think it's too powerful.


selios wrote:


Even the players think it's too powerful.

Likewise here.

Sovereign Court

selios wrote:

After an evening with a wizard and a mystic theurge, the hand of apprentice has been heavily used.

With a 22 Int, +6 to hit and damage, it is really really good. They're both human, and so have chosen longsword proficiency.
This ability seems really powerful, and not really dependent on the level.
Even the players think it's too powerful.

22 Int at what level? Even at 5th level, given that the alternative could be a third-level spell, it doesn't look horribly overpowered to me (it has to move to get there), particularly if the damage bonus was removed or prorated with, or capped at, level.


Bagpuss wrote:


22 Int at what level? Even at 5th level, given that the alternative could be a third-level spell, it doesn't look horribly overpowered to me (it has to move to get there), particularly if the damage bonus was removed or prorated with, or capped at, level.

Doesn't this depend on the weapon?

This is the biggest problem with HotA, that it is much more vulnerable to abuses than the other school abilities. For instance, a mace of disruption...

Sovereign Court

toyrobots wrote:
Bagpuss wrote:


22 Int at what level? Even at 5th level, given that the alternative could be a third-level spell, it doesn't look horribly overpowered to me (it has to move to get there), particularly if the damage bonus was removed or prorated with, or capped at, level.

Doesn't this depend on the weapon?

This is the biggest problem with HotA, that it is much more vulnerable to abuses than the other school abilities. For instance, a mace of disruption...

Well, it certainly does depend on the weapon. Anything under five pounds is OK, I guess.

A Mace of Disruption would presumably be a significant fraction of WBL at the level where it's scary (Will DC 14 rather limits its longevity) and even if the wizard did put the cash into that (or equivalently, in a low-magic game, somehow convince the rest of the party to let the wizard have the undead-murdering weapon), they're not going to be as dangerous as melee classes with the same weapon because the meleers are going to have a comparable big stat (depending on exactly their class; MAD meeleers are going to be lower, but let's assume that it's an overall wash for them or else that they are broken classes...) plus a better BAB plus they're able to use feats (not such an issue for a Disruption weapon, perhaps -- certainly if the aim's to hit, not much point in trying to hit for big damage -- but it's not going to hurt in other cases).

It's true, though, that extraspecial magical coolness on a simple weapon increases their effectiveness. However, is that a good use of their wealth (and by the time they can craft it themselves, it's hardly making them into scary meleer)? If they do decide to specialise in that, then they're presumably weaker than they otherwise would have been; if that is still, for some, too strong for the game then that's reflection of the fact that their full-strength, sensible development is too powerful for the game.

That said, I'm going to be playtesting this ability in a few weeks (was going to be this week, but real life has intruded), so until then I'm just writing down my expectations. Also, I'm OK (as I said) with nerfing the damage back (which isn't an issue when we talk about magical weapon goodies like Disruption, but will be at lower levels). On reflection, I'm also not entirely down on Int bonus to-hit being scaled somewhat (limited by level again, even, say).

Sovereign Court

But, in general, I'd like to know what levels we're talking about.


Bagpuss wrote:
22 Int at what level? Even at 5th level, given that the alternative could be a third-level spell, it doesn't look horribly overpowered to me (it has to move to get there), particularly if the damage bonus was removed or prorated with, or capped at, level.

At 8th level.

Base 16, +2 human, +2 headband, +1 at level 4 and 8.
It's easy to have that kind of score.
It's the level one power, not a third level slot.
And they're using normal weapons... A greater magic weapon spell, and it could be even better.
If the damage bonus is removed, it would be a lot different.

Sovereign Court

selios wrote:


At 8th level.
Base 16, +2 human, +2 headband, +1 at level 4 and 8.
It's easy to have that kind of score.
It's the level one power, not a third level slot.
And they're using normal weapons... A greater magic weapon spell, and it could be even better.
If the damage bonus is removed, it would be a lot different.

Oh, sure, no problem at 8th level. I'm just surprised that 'wizard using HotA to make remote melee attacks with Int bonus' is considered a serious game problem at 8th level (but I may have missed some tricks).

With reference to toyrobots example, 8th level Wizard could even reasonably blow the cash on the Mace of Disruption toyrobots mentioned (with no to-hit enhancement bonus) but then he's spent 8 grand on an item that he's +6 to hit with, that has to move to get to the bad guy who in any case will be one move away from the wizard (and wasn't it the case that the HotA had no AoO? If not, that needs clarification) and which requires a level-appropriate undead to fail a DC14 will save (even at CR 8 monsters, which is not enormously exciting for an 8-th level party to be fighting, the Mohrg has AC23 and a +9 to will saves and the Bodak has AC20 and a +7 to Will saves although he'll be out of the Bodak's balance, death gaze; of course, an 8th level wizard has some pretty good spells that will presumably do better).

I guess it seems to me that it's generally less good than the wizard casting spells, particularly at higher levels when the spells are better and the wizard has more of them. If that's still too good, then that's more of a reflection of the problems with wizards being too good in general (although it doesn't seem to me that it will be, and wasting a round getting the sword there is a pretty big commitment, when the wizard, depending on level, could otherwise be buffing, enhancing, SoDing or even just blasting).

As you mention, though, the damage enhancement could well be pulled back.


Bagpuss wrote:


Oh, sure, no problem at 8th level. I'm just surprised that 'wizard using HotA to make remote melee attacks with Int bonus' is considered a serious game problem at 8th level (but I may have missed some tricks).

It depends of the spells available at that time, of the enemies and their immunities or energy resistance, and it is a supernatural ability which can't be disrupted.

Of course it will be less useful at very high level, but it is still the best 1st lvl power by far I think.

From a personal taste, I don't like these "at will" powers.
The weakness of wizards was just that: limited uses of their magic.
It was the cost of their powerful spells.


Hit and Damage questions aside, I'm curious why HotA wouldn't be Kosher for a Hand Crossbow or Pistol attack, as pulling a trigger is certainly 'easier' than remotely swinging a melee weapon.


Kyrinn S. Eis wrote:
Hit and Damage questions aside, I'm curious why HotA wouldn't be Kosher for a Hand Crossbow or Pistol attack, as pulling a trigger is certainly 'easier' than remotely swinging a melee weapon.

I would say off the top of my head because aiming a remote weapon is harder than aiming one in your hand.


I've made a couple of statements on this before, and have to agree with a few posters here:

--There are way too many rules for a basic power.
--This is too powerful at low levels
--Doing nothing for an action sucks
--The Hand moves too slowly.
--This power isn't all that at higher levels, regardless of your Intelligence
--It doesn't scale well with the rays and orbs available to other schools
--Removing the Intelligence bonus makes it even less attractive.

There are a few ways to fix this:

1) Treat the thing more like Mordenkainen's Sword or the Spiritual Weapon it seems to be designed to be. Give the attack level + Int to hit, and weapon damage + Intelligence (or 1/2 level). It's one attack, you're not getting Feats on it, it scales with level, and depending on how you handle damage, it's worth it at all levels. It's supposed to be an at-will power that makes you useful at all times, right? Let it be.

2) Treat it as a remote ability to attack. Go with BaB + Intelligence to hit. Take weapon damage + Int to damage. Let it be iterative, and channel feats/SA/etc. You become a remote fighter, but not an overpowered one, but it still scales with you.

3) Scrap the whole idea. Make it either a telekinetic blow (truly a Universal, with Magic Missile and all), or in the spirit of the rest of the package, choose one of the other first level abilities.

I see where this power came from. There are 4-5 spells that allow floating blades, each with a special effect. But recognize the theme: You have as good a chance to hit with your magical weapon as a fighter, you hit with a little something extra, and it's your spell for a while. If this is your exclusive activity, you need to make a power that scales and is worth it to the user. This could be fun, or this could be everyone's big regret.


Your options 1) and 2) seem better than the actual power (especially the second).


selios wrote:

Your options 1) and 2) seem better than the actual power (especially the second).

That may be. I understand that a lot of people are wigging out about the Intelligence bonus here, especially added to damage. It's no different than a fighter with Strength. The Fighter, however, gets iterative attacks and Feats to jack the ability. A Wizard's magical ability should be a match in some respect. The point of this power is that it should be a solid attack when you've run out of spells. If it's a choice between this power as is and a ray attack with 1d6 every other level, I'd still take the ray. It's easier to hit and deals better damage.

My point is that this power does need retooling. The concepts I've offered are an attempt to stick with one previously established rules set per concept. I want to see this power be good, but scaling.

Dark Archive

cathat89 wrote:
3) Scrap the whole idea. Make it either a telekinetic blow (truly a Universal, with Magic Missile and all), or in the spirit of the rest of the package, choose one of the other first level abilities.

I'm leaning more in this direction. Mage Hand + Telekinetic Blow would be cool. No tie to a weapon at all, although the visible manifestation of the attack might *look* like a weapon.


Set wrote:
cathat89 wrote:
3) Scrap the whole idea. Make it either a telekinetic blow (truly a Universal, with Magic Missile and all), or in the spirit of the rest of the package, choose one of the other first level abilities.

I'm leaning more in this direction. Mage Hand + Telekinetic Blow would be cool. No tie to a weapon at all, although the visible manifestation of the attack might *look* like a weapon.

Frankly, at this point I agree. The weapon is troublesome. The biggest issue I have with HotA, neat as it is, is that it can be munchkined too easily. The ray and orb powers are pretty straightforward.


Dennis da Ogre wrote:
Kyrinn S. Eis wrote:
Hit and Damage questions aside, I'm curious why HotA wouldn't be Kosher for a Hand Crossbow or Pistol attack, as pulling a trigger is certainly 'easier' than remotely swinging a melee weapon.
I would say off the top of my head because aiming a remote weapon is harder than aiming one in your hand.

Not arguing with you, but more so than landing a blow with an edged weapon or a piercing melee weapon like a rapier? I find that hard to believe.

Dark Archive

Kyrinn S. Eis wrote:
Hit and Damage questions aside, I'm curious why HotA wouldn't be Kosher for a Hand Crossbow or Pistol attack, as pulling a trigger is certainly 'easier' than remotely swinging a melee weapon.

Seems to me that holding and firing a hand crossbow would probably be easier than manipulating a whip or nunchaku in melee combat. And dashing in and smacking someone with a tanglefoot bag or flask of alchemist's fire would be even easier than that... (And the HotA can draw these 'weapons' as a free action. Free tanglefoot bags or alchemist's fire, which whom everyone is considered 'proficient' on anyone within 15 ft. as a standard action!)


Absolutely. Odd that they aren't (if I read Jason correctly) allowed, but the damage potential through BAB-iteratives, plus Int Mod. is allowed.

To think that in the primordial past of gaming that Telekinetic Hand in TSR's GAMMA WORLD was illustrated with a TK-hand holding a primed grenade. ;)

If HotA is 'nerfed' in that regard, I think it should simply be replaced with a 'Force Bolt' with the ability to cause 5' of knockback v. a CL DC Fort save. Damage on the order of 1d6/2 levels, no Int mod.


Kyrinn S. Eis wrote:


If HotA is 'nerfed' in that regard, I think it should simply be replaced with a 'Force Bolt' with the ability to cause 5' of knockback v. a CL DC Fort save. Damage on the order of 1d6/2 levels, no Int mod.

Or, if we only want to have a "melee strike" type as an at-will attack, we could easily replace it with something like I made for converting some Domains from the Eberron campaign (using as a basic guideline the existing 1st level powers of the others existing PFRPG Domains):

"As a standard action, you can briefly materialize a ghostly (INSERT WEAPON - in the Domain I converted, it was a scimitar) made of force to strike any foe within 30 feet with a single melee attack, using your base attack bonus and your Intelligence (Wisdom, in my version...) modifier to the attack roll. If the blade hits, it deals (INSERT BASIC WEAPON DAMAGE - for my Scimitar, 1d6) points of force damage +1 for every four caster levels you possess. The blade has a critical range of (INSERT CRITICAL RANGE - 18-20 for a Scimitar) and can strike incorporeal foes without the usual miss chance. Damage reduction does not apply to this damage. Once the strike has been made (either successful or not), the blade winks out of existence."

TRIVIAL: this was originally made by me for the Revered Ancestor Domain of Valenar Elves


The Wraith wrote:
Kyrinn S. Eis wrote:


If HotA is 'nerfed' in that regard, I think it should simply be replaced with a 'Force Bolt' with the ability to cause 5' of knockback v. a CL DC Fort save. Damage on the order of 1d6/2 levels, no Int mod.

Or, if we only want to have a "melee strike" type as an at-will attack, we could easily replace it with something like I made for converting some Domains from the Eberron campaign (using as a basic guideline the existing 1st level powers of the others existing PFRPG Domains):

"As a standard action, you can briefly materialize a ghostly (INSERT WEAPON - in the Domain I converted, it was a scimitar) made of force to strike any foe within 30 feet with a single melee attack, using your base attack bonus and your Intelligence (Wisdom, in my version...) modifier to the attack roll. If the blade hits, it deals (INSERT BASIC WEAPON DAMAGE - for my Scimitar, 1d6) points of force damage +1 for every four caster levels you possess. The blade has a critical range of (INSERT CRITICAL RANGE - 18-20 for a Scimitar) and can strike incorporeal foes without the usual miss chance. Damage reduction does not apply to this damage. Once the strike has been made (either successful or not), the blade winks out of existence."

TRIVIAL: this was originally made by me for the Revered Ancestor Domain of Valenar Elves

I like this concept, although I'd make it a little more like Persistent Blade, where you get your level + Intelligence to attack. Keep the base weapon type damage, and the +1/3 levels, or +1/4 levels. Sounds more manageable. I would just want to see some sort of damage upscale along with the to-hit, since at 12th level your baddies are going to take a lot more to bring down.

If you kept the weapon, you should keep it BaB + Intelligence to-hit.


Uhm, when is the Wizard pass over, and will we get some sort of official ruling by then? Having to reconfigure a generalist into an evoker is going to be a pain in the arse.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

[...]

I am considering ditching the Int bonus on damage.. it is a bit too good.

Some kind of bonus would be nice, otherwise it would be a bit ...not so good. What about half int bonus to damage (rounded down, 20 = +2 ).

At lower levels our wizard sometimes outshone ny rogue but that's OK. Now at level 4 The hand of the Apprentice is no longer so über. Still good but not gamebreaking. If you remove the whole int bonus it would not be any good.

Sovereign Court

What about Int bonus for damage but capped at wizard level? And keep Int bonus for 'to hit'.


Bagpuss wrote:
What about Int bonus for damage but capped at wizard level? And keep Int bonus for 'to hit'.

Sounds balanced but still fails my needs for how complex a rule should be when 99% of wizards will have it.

Sovereign Court

toyrobots wrote:


Sounds balanced but still fails my needs for how complex a rule should be when 99% of wizards will have it.

Well, it's the same sort of mechanic as the Int bonus to AC for Duellists (at least in 3.5; I forget the PFRPG version).

However, your wider point about rebalancing Universalist is true.

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