Here are just a few minor suggestions I had about this or that Bloodline ability. In general, I'd like the feat lists to be expanded a bit, but I don't have any hard suggestions just yet.
Pg 43: (Abyssal) Claws: Still not entirely sold on the idea of sorcerers being encouraged to enter melee combat, but that they progress is nice. Also not sold on Strength of the Abyss, though it’s an interesting idea for roleplaying purposes.
Pg 43: Arcane): Metamagic Adept: The time increase is still unnecessary, but now that all sorcerers can cast a Quickened spell right off the bat, it’s not such a big deal. New Arcana: It would be pretty cool if the sorcerer could pick any spell to add to his spells known, though he would have to pick it up at the highest level it’s listed for if it’s not already on the Sor/Wiz list.
Pg 45: (Celestial): Ascension: Doesn’t this just scream “unlimited use of Wings of Heaven”? I mean, it’s not like all-day flying is hard to get at 20th level, and it fits the ability so perfectly.
Pg 45: (Destined): Within Reach: This could use a better name, like “I can’t go out this way!”, “This Isn’t How I Die!”, or something like that.
(As a corollary, it would be good if save-or-dies in general to simply drop you to -7 or so and bleeding. That way, the DM can actually use them against the PCs, and the PCs can get hit by them without having to roll up a new character or go through the hassle of getting rezzed).
Pg 46: (Draconic): Breath Weapon: I’d like to see this more closely resemble actual breath weapons. Perhaps it could deal ½ sor level in d6s, but he could use it every 1d4 hours at 9th level, every 1d4 minutes at 17th level, and 1d4 rounds at 20th level?
Pg 47: (Fey): Laughing Touch: This should be a [Mind-effecting] effect, if not have a save.
Pg 48: (Undead): One of Us: This could be worded better: it seems to be trying to say that you don’t have to rot, but technically all it says is you don’t have to look like you’re rotting even though you are.
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This seems to be the best place to put my nitpicks and suggestions as well ...
The bloodlines are a great idea, but I think they need fine-tuning.
ABERRANT: All the class abilities are good. Bonus spells are not very aberrant-ish. Enlarge person? Tongues? This does not evoke the madness that lies between the stars beyond. They make the Aberrant Sorcerer more of a buff-party guy, rather than a tentacle-inclined weirdo. I suggest the more themed list below:
Abyssal Bonus Spells: endure elements (3rd), blur (5th), stinking cloud (7th), confusion (9th), contact other plane (11th), eyebite (13th), insanity (15th), antipathy (17th), weird (19th).
ABYSSAL: Good class abilities, that make the Abyssal Sorcerer inclined to hand to hand combat. Again, the spells need fine tuning – no point in having bull’s strength with the inherent bonus to strength at 9th level. I recommend a more demonic list below.
Bonus Spells: burning hands (3rd); summon swarm (5th); rage (7th); contagion (9th); cloudkill (11th); circle of death (13th); power word blind (15th); incendiary cloud (17th); power word kill (19th)
ARCANE: Good as written
CELESTIAL: Heavenly fire isn’t bad, but it requires bookkeeping to keep track of who has received healing that day. A good alternative might be to grant temporary hit points, or grant healing at the cost of nonlethal hit points of the caster? The Wings of Heaven ability seem a bit weak with their limited duration considering the sorcerer could have Fly as a spell two levels earlier.
The list of bonus feats lists Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion), and this should have been changed to Heal.
The bonus spells offered by the celestial bloodline are not themed heavily towards goodness, with flame strike at 11th, and gate at 19th – these spells are effective, but don’t evoke good behaviour. I’d recommend the list below:
Bonus Spells: Protection from evil (3rd), Daylight (5th); Magic circle against evil (7th); Rainbow pattern (9th); Dismissal (11th); Guards and wards (13th); Sequester (15th); Sunburst (17th); Summon Monster IX (19th, good outsiders only).
DESTINED: Touch of Destiny seems a bit incongruous to the other sorcerous abilities, and as written doesn’t indicate if it can be used on the caster itself.
Fated as well, is unnecessarily complicated – if you want to grant a bonus to saving throws on saving throws during surprise rounds, you end up with a destined sorcerer hoping they are surprised. You could replace this paragraph of verbiage with a simple Uncanny Dodge ability, or a scaling bonus to Initiative.
DRACONIC: This bloodline is attractive, with claws, breath weapons, and resistance.
The bonus feat list has an error carrying from the Alpha playtest, and Skill Focus (Knowledge Arcana or Fly) should probably be Skill Focus (Perception). The spell choices available aren’t great – Fly at 7th when you get wings at 15th? Form of the Dragon I through III is repetitive, and uses up valuable slots. I recommend the following bonus spell list:
Bonus Spells: Identify (3rd); darkvision (5th); protection from elements (7th); fear (9th); spell resistance (11th); form of the dragon I (13th); greater scrying (15th); demand (17th); dominate monster (19th)
FEY: Laughing Touch is weak, and what the heck is a sorcerer doing in the front line touching opponents? I really think this should be replaced. Perhaps a ray attack that causes lesser confusion?
Bonus Spells: Charm Person (3rd); Invisibility (5th); Suggestion (7th); Shadow Conjuration (9th); Seeming (11th); Mislead (13th); Sequester (15th); Otto’s Irresistible Dance (17th); Wail of the Banshee (19th)
INFERNAL: I believe this bonus spell list should be more about communication, misinformation, and mental attacks, a nice foil to the abyssal physical attacks.
Bonus Spells: Cause Fear (3rd); Darkness (5th); Tongues (7th); Bestow Curse (9th); Nightmare (11th); Mislead (13th); Insanity (15th); Mass Charm Monster (17th); Soul Bind (19th)
Feats: Skill Focus should be for Diplomacy
UNDEAD: I believe that most of the class abilities and spell lists for this bloodline are excellent. However, Grasp of the Dead is a bit hokey. Perhaps it could be cosmetically changed to be a whirlwind of wraithlike spirits?
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INFERNAL: I believe this bonus spell list should be more about communication, misinformation, and mental attacks, a nice foil to the abyssal physical attacks.
I agree, and in general I would like to see some of the bloodlines shift away from combat-oriented powers to some more utility powers.
In particular, I really think protection from good should not be a bloodline spell (Beta has it as one of the Infernal's bonus spells). That spell has the evil descriptor, and a non-evil sorcerer with an Infernal bloodline shouldn't have to get stuck with that as a bonus spell.
And making all the bonus Skill Focus feats for only Knowledge skills is pretty ho-hum. So I like giving Infernal bloodline Skill Focus (Diplomacy) as a bonus feat too.
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I agree, and in general I would like to see some of the bloodlines shift away from combat-oriented powers to some more utility powers.
In particular, I really think protection from good should not be a bloodline spell (Beta has it as one of the Infernal's bonus spells). That spell has the evil descriptor, and a non-evil sorcerer with an Infernal bloodline shouldn't have to get stuck with that as a bonus spell.
And making all the bonus Skill Focus feats for only Knowledge skills is pretty ho-hum. So I like giving Infernal bloodline Skill Focus (Diplomacy) as a bonus feat too.
I saw that with protection from evil, that's why I changed it to cause fear.
I think at least one bloodline should be combat oriented, one should be firepower-oriented, one should be communication-oriented, etc. What's the point of having bloodline choices if all the choices are essentially the same, with slightly different window dressing?
I thought the bonus Skill Focus should at least match the bonus class skill, at least that's what I thought the intention was. I don't see a problem with expanding the bonus feat list at all.
This seems to be the best place to put my nitpicks and suggestions as well ...
The bloodlines are a great idea, but I think they need fine-tuning.
ABERRANT: All the class abilities are good. Bonus spells are not very aberrant-ish. Enlarge person? Tongues? This does not evoke the madness that lies between the stars beyond. They make the Aberrant Sorcerer more of a buff-party guy, rather than a tentacle-inclined weirdo. I suggest the more themed list below:
Abyssal Bonus Spells: endure elements (3rd), blur (5th), stinking cloud (7th), confusion (9th), contact other plane (11th), eyebite (13th), insanity (15th), antipathy (17th), weird (19th).
ABYSSAL: Good class abilities, that make the Abyssal Sorcerer inclined to hand to hand combat. Again, the spells need fine tuning – no point in having bull’s strength with the inherent bonus to strength at 9th level. I recommend a more demonic list below.
Bonus Spells: burning hands (3rd); summon swarm (5th); rage (7th); contagion (9th); cloudkill (11th); circle of death (13th); power word blind (15th); incendiary cloud (17th); power word kill (19th)
ARCANE: Good as written
CELESTIAL: Heavenly fire isn’t bad, but it requires bookkeeping to keep track of who has received healing that day. A good alternative might be to grant temporary hit points, or grant healing at the cost of nonlethal hit points of the caster? The Wings of Heaven ability seem a bit weak with their limited duration considering the sorcerer could have Fly as a spell two levels earlier.
The list of bonus feats lists Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion), and this should have been changed to Heal.
The bonus spells offered by the celestial bloodline are not themed heavily towards goodness, with flame strike at 11th, and gate at 19th – these spells are effective, but don’t evoke good behaviour. I’d recommend the list below:
Bonus Spells: Protection from evil (3rd), Daylight (5th); Magic circle against evil (7th); Rainbow pattern (9th); Dismissal (11th);...
I think these are a vast improvement over what we have. I'm hoping Jason looks at these too. Archade, you've done some great work, I'd love to see it become official.
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DRACONIC: This bloodline is attractive, with claws, breath weapons, and resistance.
The bonus feat list has an error carrying from the Alpha playtest, and Skill Focus (Knowledge Arcana or Fly) should probably be Skill Focus (Perception). The spell choices available aren’t great – Fly at 7th when you get wings at 15th? Form of the Dragon I through III is repetitive, and uses up valuable slots. I recommend the following bonus spell list:
Bonus Spells: Identify (3rd); darkvision (5th); protection from elements (7th); fear (9th); spell resistance (11th); form of the dragon I (13th); greater scrying (15th); demand (17th); dominate monster (19th)
I personally think that claws on a poor melee progression class is a bit silly. I'd lean more towards a weak breath effect like that of the dragonfire adept. A small line or cone attack isn't that powerful, and if you give it a save DC based on Con, it'd be quite balanced. The super breath attack 1/day becomes the special use for the big challenge then.
The spells that Archade suggested are okay, but I'd do something other than Darkvision for 3rd.
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On the Undead Bloodline, it bothers me that the first Bloodline power (grave touch) is almost exactly line the first bonus spell given (chill touch). The only difference these two is a minor special effect.
I would propose changing the first spell to be Ray of Enfeeblement.
I would not make it Cause Fear, as this would overlap with the Abyssal Bloodline.
I do not think this would be too overpowering, as other bloodlines receive fairly potent spells at 3rd level (the Fey bloodline gets Entangle -- an area spell -- at the same time).
A few comments:
FEY: I think the lvl 1 power should be revised. Yes, it is good since there is no save. But in my opinion is a lot worse than the others, since there is no level progression. Apart from level 1 I can't really imagine using something which last only 1 level.
ABBYSSAL: Isn't Added Summoning a bit too powerful? Personally I haven't much experience with high level play, but isn't it a bit too much too double the power of Summon Monster IX?
A few comments:
FEY: I think the lvl 1 power should be revised. Yes, it is good since there is no save. But in my opinion is a lot worse than the others, since there is no level progression. Apart from level 1 I can't really imagine using something which last only 1 level.
Well, there aren't that many abilities which have no save, no HD limit, and ignore SR (since it's a (Su) ability).
ABBYSSAL: Isn't Added Summoning a bit too powerful? Personally I haven't much experience with high level play, but isn't it a bit too much too double the power of Summon Monster IX?
It's a good power and it's better than it's better than many level 15 bloodline powers, but I don't think it's really too powerful. I'd have to see it in action, though.
I'd also like to pick at the choice of bonus feats for the elemental sorcerer. Power Attack and Weapon Finesse are of limited value to a poor BAB progression class, and seem out of place. What about Point Blank Shot and Deadly Aim instead?
I don't have a problem with the relative crappiness of sorcerer bonus feats. YMMV, of course.
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I don't have a problem with the relative crappiness of sorcerer bonus feats. YMMV, of course.
Right now, Imp Initiative and Empower Spell are the more appealing choices for most casters, but I don't think that choosing them should be a "no-brainer" because the other options are no thematic/have poor utility.
As suggested in previous threads here, it could be good if the bonus spells given by the Bloodlines:
a) had a broader choice, or
b) were given earlier.
The fact is (as Snorter pointed in that thread) that a Sorcerer now has a risk, either to waste a 'signature spell' given by the Bloodline simply because the Bloodline gives it too late, or forcing the Sorcerer to 'wait' unnaturally for such a spell.
"Hey, I'm an Undead Bloodline Sorcerer, cool, I can add vampiric touch to my known spells at...7th level ?" (at the same moment, the 5th-level Wizard takes the spell and start laughing to the Sorcerer in the background...)
If that Sorcerer takes Vampiric Touch at 6th, he has wasted one of his bonus spells (perhaps he can change it at 10th level, in order to take it as a bonus Bloodline spell - or perhaps not, the rules are unclear about this); if he wants to take it without wasting it, he takes it ONE level after he can start casting his spells (talking about signature spell...)
So, I think that one of the choices above have to be taken in consideration - some people even suggested (and I can only agree with them) to give the bonus spells ONE level before to the normal spell-known progression, and allowing a Sorcerer to cast ONLY that spell - think of a 'spells per day allotment' of 0(+ Cha bonus), with ONLY the signature spell as a spell that can be cast.
So, something like this:
Spells per day Sorcerer 5th: 6 1st-level - 4 2nd-level - 0 3rd-level (here he can only use Vampiric Touch)
Or, if we want to keep the 'staggered progression', give the Vampiric Touch at 6th or make the bonus spell given at 7th : Vampiric Touch OR Halt Undead (for example).
Just my 2c.
I'll take my crack at them.
For a sorceror of ANY bloodline the bonus spells granted by their bloodline should be granted at the same level the character acquires access to that spell level.
Recommend consistency in detailing level-based effects as either caster-level-based or bloodline-level-based.
Bloodline powers pretty much could be dual-purposed for the 1st level.
Aberrant Acidic Ray can also be used as an Acidic Spray as a melee touch attack. For thematic purposes I can envision a character vomiting forth when using this ability...
Suggest changing out Enlarge Person for Grease.
Abyssal
Recommend adding in a line to the effect of "as a free action the claws can be made 'ready'; otherwise they are retracted and inobvious". Otherwise, the sorcerer is walking around with claws as long as the blades of short swords.
Suggest changing out Cause Fear for Enlarge Person.
Arcane is fine as it is.
Celestial Heavenly Fire is an interesting concept, although for simplicity one might consider removing the curative facet and adding in the ability to utilize the ability both as melee touch and as a 30' ray.
Wings of Heaven seem so-so, although I would probably want to keep it as a 'back up'.
Destined Actually I like this one, although the wording requiring re-rolling to be done before knowing the results of the die roll seems unnecessary for It Was Meant to Be.
Draconic As with the claws from the Abyssal bloodline I'd recommend a wording added in to reflect their concealed/retractable nature. This bloodline is a specific example of what I would recommend structuring so as to dovetail directly into the dragon disciple at the transition from 10th to 11th level. As written it still works well at the transition from 5th level to 6th level, culminating at 15th level for the PrC, then resuming sorceror levels until 20th. The difficulty I can see has to do with the differences between two different wings abilities - gained respectively at 15th level as a sorcerer, 14th level as a sorcerer/dragon disciple. How does the bloodline abilities mesh with the dragon disciple prestige class? Important questions to be answered it seems.
Elemental As with the Aberrant's Acidic Ray, recommend adding in the same ability to be used as both a ranged touch and as a melee touch attack.
Fey Retain the laughing touch and add in the ability to use it as a 30' ray as well. As an alternative to the ray, perhaps grant Calm Animals as an ability instead. Perhaps Fey bloodline sorcerers can instead of either/both gain an animal companion as their version of an arcane bond as a druid of their caster level or equivalent deciding mechanism.
Infernal Add in a 30' range to the corrupting touch that only imparts the shaken condition.
Undead As with my other recommendations, permit the grave touch to function at a range of 30', solely to impart the cold damage but not the stablization auto-failure.
I really like the bloodlines and the various traits and abilities they provide. The one issue I have is that at low levels the bloodlines that have the at will damage dealing abilities are significantly more powerful than the other bloodlines. This definitely effected my decision on which bloodline to choose (I chose Elemental rather than Infernal). I would like to see all the bloodlines have a 1st level damage dealing ability. Possibly offer both a damage dealing power and another unique ability at 1st level, or give the player the option to choose one or the other at 1st level.
Example: Infernal Bloodline: at 1st level the character receives both Corrupting Touch and a bloodline related damage dealing ability similar to the Elemental Ray of the Elemental Bloodline. Optionally, offer the choice of one or the other.
In addition, you could offer a Feat that allows a Sorcerer to gain whichever power they they did not choose at 1st level.
Example: A player creates a Infernal Bloodline Sorcerer. At first level the character chooses to take the 1st level damage dealing ability. At 3rd level, they take a feat which gives them the Corrupting Touch power in addition.