Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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As suggestion for a bardic combat ability, one that seems appropriate to their idiom and will add a bit of handy utility without getting all crazy about it, I present:
Dramatic Flourish (Ex): At 2nd level, bards may use their performance skills to distract and momentarily confuse their enemies. A bard may feint in combat or create a distraction to hide as a move action, using a Perform check in place of a Bluff check.
The feint is plausible enough, but the distraction to hide seemed odd to me at first, until I sort of had a visual of a bard playing the dramatic final note of a tune, bowing, the people around cheering clapping each other on the back and then looking back and... where did he go? Cue the dramatic chase music as the bard is sprinting away through the alley with the princess and the jewels...
Thoughts?
P.S. I had also considered making this a bit of bardic music, with targets who fell asleep being considered flat-footed to the bard for a round, but I think I like it better as above.
This is cool.
As suggestion for a bardic combat ability, one that seems appropriate to their idiom and will add a bit of handy utility without getting all crazy about it, I present:
Dramatic Flourish (Ex): At 2nd level, bards may use their performance skills to distract and momentarily confuse their enemies. A bard may feint in combat or create a distraction to hide as a move action, using a Perform check in place of a Bluff check.
The feint is plausible enough, but the distraction to hide seemed odd to me at first, until I sort of had a visual of a bard playing the dramatic final note of a tune, bowing, the people around cheering clapping each other on the back and then looking back and... where did he go? Cue the dramatic chase music as the bard is sprinting away through the alley with the princess and the jewels...
Thoughts?
I like the idea. I couldn't tell from your description whether or not feinting in combat normally allows a character to hide. To make it more clear that the skill substitution lets you do something new, you could tweak the word ordering:
Dramatic Flourish (Ex): At 2nd level, bards may use their performance skills to distract and momentarily confuse their enemies. A bard may feint in combat using a Perform check in place of a Bluff check, or use a Perform check as a move action to create an opportunity to hide.
Or maybe I'm misunderstanding. I was wondering if that last part is supposed to function anything like the 17th level ranger ability hide in plain sight. Is it different because it requires two skill checks instead of one? (Perform followed by Stealth) If so, does each check require a separate move action? Or is it the same as the ranger ability except that, while the bard may start in plain sight, he must find a place out of plain sight to hide? If so, how close does the hiding place need to be? Is anything within the range of a normal move OK?
Thanks for clarifying.
P.S. I had also considered making this a bit of bardic music, with targets who fell asleep being considered flat-footed to the bard for a round, but I think I like it better as above.
The description of Bluff on p.56 says you can "use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be flat-footed against your next attack." So haven't you kind of already done that as well? If they were asleep, then they'd also be subject to coup de grace.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I like the idea. I couldn't tell from your description whether or not feinting in combat normally allows a character to hide.As suggestion for a bardic combat ability, one that seems appropriate to their idiom and will add a bit of handy utility without getting all crazy about it, I present:
Dramatic Flourish (Ex): At 2nd level, bards may use their performance skills to distract and momentarily confuse their enemies. A bard may feint in combat or create a distraction to hide as a move action, using a Perform check in place of a Bluff check.
The feint is plausible enough, but the distraction to hide seemed odd to me at first, until I sort of had a visual of a bard playing the dramatic final note of a tune, bowing, the people around cheering clapping each other on the back and then looking back and... where did he go? Cue the dramatic chase music as the bard is sprinting away through the alley with the princess and the jewels...
Thoughts?
It doesn't.
The Bluff skill allows you to:
a. Feint in combat.
b. Create a distraction to be able to hide.
Doing either is a standard action.
The "Dramatic flourish" class ability in turn does two things:
1. Lets you use Perform to do (a) and (b) instead of Bluff.
2. Lets you do them as a move action, rather than a standard action.
To make it more clear that the skill substitution lets you do something new, you could tweak the word ordering:
Dramatic Flourish (Ex): At 2nd level, bards may use their performance skills to distract and momentarily confuse their enemies. A bard may feint in combat using a Perform check in place of a Bluff check, or use a Perform check as a move action to create an opportunity to hide.
Or maybe I'm misunderstanding. I was wondering if that last part is supposed to function anything like the 17th level ranger ability hide in plain sight. Is it different because it requires two skill checks instead of one? (Perform followed by Stealth) If so, does each check require a separate move action? Or is it the same as the ranger ability except that, while the bard may start in plain sight, he must find a place out of plain sight to hide? If so, how close does the hiding place need to be? Is anything within the range of a normal move OK?
Thanks for clarifying.
The ability to Bluff and create a diversion to hide lets you distract your enemies and quickly duck into nearby cover or concealment (the PH says as a general rule the hiding spot needs to be within 1 foot per rank of Hide, and the Hide check takes a -10 penalty because you have to quickly zip into hiding). Normally you can't hide at all if you're being observed or if you don't have cover or concealment. Bluffing for a diversion lets you overcome those restrictions, but you have to:
1. Make a Bluff check (or with this ability Perform) opposed by Sense Motive of any observers.
2. Have a hiding spot close enough to you to be able to use it.
3. Make a Hide check at -10 opposed by the Spot checks of observers.
Not that easy to do, but do-able.
Hide in Plain Sight bypasses 1 and 2 and doesn't impose a -10 penalty on #3.
P.S. I had also considered making this a bit of bardic music, with targets who fell asleep being considered flat-footed to the bard for a round, but I think I like it better as above.
The description of Bluff on p.56 says you can "use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be flat-footed against your next attack." So haven't you kind of already done that as well? If they were asleep, then they'd also be subject to coup de grace.
Umm... that would be me mis-posting. Maybe I was asleep. I mean to say "targets who fell for his trick" - i.e., who were distracted. I dunno why I typed asleep.
Dramatic Flourish (Ex): At 2nd level, bards may use their performance skills to distract and momentarily confuse their enemies. A bard may feint in combat or create a distraction to hide as a move action, using a Perform check in place of a Bluff check.
The feint is plausible enough, but the distraction to hide seemed odd to me at first, until I sort of had a visual of a bard playing the dramatic final note of a tune, bowing, the people around cheering clapping each other on the back and then looking back and... where did he go? Cue the dramatic chase music as the bard is sprinting away through the alley with the princess and the jewels...
Thoughts?
I would keep it as a standard action and let them take the feat to make it a move action. It's a rather potent ability, albeit an appropriate one, and there's no reason to push it too far. If a Bard wants to focus on feinting, they should work through the feat tree and consider this a handy bonus.
2. Lets you do them as a move action, rather than a standard action.
Got it.
Just curious, how do you imagine a character taking advantage of the move vs. standard action once they're hiding? Do you expect the character to attack first, then distract and hide, all in the same round? Or is there something you imagine a character wanting to do once he is successfully hiding, that he would not have been able to do had the distraction been a standard action? Could you illustrate this with another example, to help me imagine how I might use this ability?
By the way, the name of this ability alone is enough to make me want to shout "Gotta have it!" You're clarification is really awesome, so thanks for bearing with me.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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2. Lets you do them as a move action, rather than a standard action.Got it.
Just curious, how do you imagine a character taking advantage of the move vs. standard action once they're hiding? Do you expect the character to attack first, then distract and hide, all in the same round? Or is there something you imagine a character wanting to do once he is successfully hiding, that he would not have been able to do had the distraction been a standard action? Could you illustrate this with another example, to help me imagine how I might use this ability?
By the way, the name of this ability alone is enough to make me want to shout "Gotta have it!" You're clarification is really awesome, so thanks for bearing with me.
Happy to help.
I would envision one of several applications:
1. Feint, attack vs. flat-footed AC.
2. Feint, cast while threatened in melee with no AoO because enemy is flat-footed (Combat Reflexes would trump this, of course).
3. Attack/cast/bardic music, then DRAMATIC FLOURISH (move action to distract, then hide). You'd have to have a hiding spot available within 5' cuz all the move you'd have left would be a 5-foot step.
4. DRAMATIC FLOURISH (move/distract), moving to a hiding spot within the 1'/rank of Hide limit, then use a standard action to cast a spell or perform some other action that required a standard instead of a move (sorry, not thinking of any great examples off the top of my head other than casting or drinking a potion or something like that; if I had the book in front of me I'd give you something clever; perhaps a bull rush or overrun to barrel through someone blocking your way with no AoO cuz they're flat-footed against your hiding-ness).
There is a funny little corner case here about whether the Bluff/distract/Hide trick requires a separate move action. It specifies how close the hiding place needs to be, but it doesn't specify how you get there. It may make this ability moot, because if you already can get to a hiding place with a 5' step, you can just hide as soon as you get there. If you can't you'd need to use your whole standard action to move and get there.
On a certain level, if there is a hiding place within your movement, there's really almost no reason to use the Bluff trick, because as soon as you reach a place of cover/concealment, you can ALREADY make a Hide check as part of your move action (penalized if you move more than half speed) as soon as you get there. The only reasons to use the Bluff trick would be:
1. To escape from being threatened, because then the Hide (if you succeed) would begin immediately, before you actually reach cover/concealment.
2. Because if there are multiple potential hiding places, if you use the Bluff trick then observers can't see which one you used. If you move and then Hide after you get to concealment, they know where you went and obviously have a leg up on finding you. If you use the Bluff trick, you can have slipped off to ANY cover/concealment within range.
3. If your DM is really generous and allows you to use other party-mates as "cover" (which they provide against certain kinds of attacks) for Hide checks.
Happy to help.I would envision one of several applications:
1. Feint, attack vs. flat-footed AC.
Sounds obvious once you say it. I'm beginning to understand why Brother Willi calls it a potent ability.
2. Feint, cast while threatened in melee with no AoO because enemy is flat-footed (Combat Reflexes would trump this, of course).
Cool.
3. Attack/cast/bardic music, then DRAMATIC FLOURISH (move action to distract, then hide). You'd have to have a hiding spot available within 5' cuz all the move you'd have left would be a 5-foot step.
That's really interesting. I was wondering if attacking and hiding in the same round was possible, so this is good to know.
Although
Since a full-round action is taken in place of both a standard action and a move action, and it allows a 5-foot step at any time, I'm inclined to agree with your interpretation that the 5-foot step carries forward.
4. DRAMATIC FLOURISH (move/distract), moving to a hiding spot within the 1'/rank of Hide limit, then use a standard action to cast a spell or perform some other action that required a standard instead of a move (sorry, not thinking of any great examples off the top of my head other than casting or drinking a potion or something like that; if I had the book in front of me I'd give you something clever; perhaps a bull rush or overrun to barrel through someone blocking your way with no AoO cuz they're flat-footed against your hiding-ness).
Great or not, these examples tell me what you think is possible with the ability. Thanks!
There is a funny little corner case hereTricky. Here's how I understood it:
There is a funny little corner case here about whether the Bluff/distract/Hide trick requires a separate move action. It specifies how close the hiding place needs to be, but it doesn't specify how you get there. It may make this ability moot, because if you already can get to a hiding place with a 5' step, you can just hide as soon as you get there. If you can't you'd need to use your whole standard action to move and get there.
The simplest reading is to assume that it requires a move action to get there if it's more than 5 feet. I noticed, now that Hide has been merged into Stealth in Pathfinder, the text about 1 foot per skill level has been removed. I don't know if the designers ran into this same conundrum or if they were just trying to reduce complexity.
I don't think you could hide as soon as you got there unless you first distracted the observer. That's my simple reading of not being able to hide while observed.
On a certain level, if there is a hiding place within your movement, there's really almost no reason to use the Bluff trick, because as soon as you reach a place of cover/concealment, you can ALREADY make a Hide check as part of your move action (penalized if you move more than half speed) as soon as you get there. The only reasons to use the Bluff trick would be:1. To escape from being threatened, because then the Hide (if you succeed) would begin immediately, before you actually reach cover/concealment.
2. Because if there are multiple potential hiding places, if you use the Bluff trick then observers can't see which one you used. If you move and then Hide after you get to concealment, they know where you went and obviously have a leg up on finding you. If you use the Bluff trick, you can have slipped off to ANY cover/concealment within range.
3. If your DM is really generous and allows you to use other party-mates as "cover" (which they provide against certain kinds of attacks) for Hide checks.
I think you still need to escape from being observed, so the bluff trick is not moot, regardless of the number of potential hiding places.
Thanks for the detailed response. Brother Willi raises a good point: other than the skill substitution, what this ability gives you is exactly the Improved Feint feat. I think you would need to go one further and make feint a swift action to enable case 4 of dramatic flourish (above), making it overpowered. Also, since the ability implies that you are performing, I would not allow it in combat except with Perform (act) or Perform (dance). To make it useful outside of combat, I would make it a swift action when the bard has the attention of an audience (although that may be moot if you grant the performing bard a surprise round). That would make possible your original visual of a bard playing the dramatic final note, then escaping with the princess and jewels while the audience is distracted. It remains only partly a combat ability, although a musical bard could still use it to attack from stage.
I think it would require a "Special" note at the end of the Bluff skill description to clarify what the ability allows vs. what is normal. My only other qualm is whether all bards should do it.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The rules on movement, Bluff, and Stealth in PF are different enough in PF Beta from the SRD, now that I've looked at them more carefully, that this ability would work a little differently:
1. Neither Bluff nor Stealth specifies what kind of action is needed to "create a diversion to hide." The rule of thumb for skills is that if it doesn't say otherwise, it takes a standard action.
2. Stealth does still stipulate the -10 penalty for the quick hide after distraction, but not the 1'/rank rule, so it would seem the way it works now is:
a. Make your Bluff check to distract (opposed by Sense Motive).
b. Make your Stealth check as normal, that is, as part of your move action, either at -10 if moving 1/2 speed or at -15 if moving full speed (opposed by Perception).
c. If you have not reached a place of cover or concealment by the end of your move, the rules are a little unclear. That is, is your Stealth rendered invalid because you are once again under direct observation (i.e., the Bluff distraction only operates during your turn), or does your Stealth continue round to round at -10/-15?
The question is: When does your Stealth revert to normal value?
I'd say the ability still works fine as it is. Essentially, yes, it is "Improved Feint" but using Perform instead of Bluff, plus a dash of the same treatment for the "distract to hide" trick (move action, Perform instead of Bluff).
I would say you could use any kind of performance - your sudden dramatic flourish of music, song, acting, comedic pratfall, oratorical lunacy in the midst of bloodshed, a furl of the sequined cape, a dazzling pirouette, or anything could give your opponent enough of a momentary WTF? moment to allow you to slip your rapier into his ribs or to dash off to cover.
As a side note, perhaps the most interesting application of the "distraction to hide" trick as a move action would be to use your standard action to Ready another action. This requires that your Stealth check last until the beginning of your next turn (as opposed to the end of your current turn), but you flourish, take a 5-foot sidestep, and then ready yourself to leap out at the crucial moment BUM-BUM-BAAAAAAAMMMMM with all your bardly sense of impeccable dramatic timing.
I dunno, I like the idea. I just think it feels very bardly.
The rules on movement, Bluff, and Stealth in PF are different enough in PF Beta from the SRD, now that I've looked at them more carefully, that this ability would work a little differently:1. Neither Bluff nor Stealth specifies what kind of action is needed to "create a diversion to hide." The rule of thumb for skills is that if it doesn't say otherwise, it takes a standard action.
Thanks, that's good to know.
2. Stealth does still stipulate the -10 penalty for the quick hide after distraction, but not the 1'/rank rule, so it would seem the way it works now is:a. Make your Bluff check to distract (opposed by Sense Motive).
In this case, you make a Perform check to distract. It occurred to me that here is an opportunity to make dramatic flourish a little different. What if it was opposed by something other than Sense Motive? Since dramatic flourish is useful for catching someone flat-footed, this might be a way to catch someone mentally flat-footed, bypassing their high Sense Motive score. Since a lot of people have complained that Perform doesn't do anything useful, why not make the check opposed by Perform instead? For example, someone who lacks experience with acting techniques will not realize how they are being manipulated, but an experienced actor can see through the technique. Other types of Perform could be used, and it would be opposed by a Perform check of the same type.
b. Make your Stealth check as normal, that is, as part of your move action, either at -10 if moving 1/2 speed or at -15 if moving full speed (opposed by Perception).c. If you have not reached a place of cover or concealment by the end of your move, the rules are a little unclear. That is, is your Stealth rendered invalid because you are once again under direct observation (i.e., the Bluff distraction only operates during your turn), or does your Stealth continue round to round at -10/-15?
The question is: When does your Stealth revert to normal value?
Good question. I think it's implicit that if you fail to reach an unobserved place of some kind, stealth is no longer in effect.
I'd say the ability still works fine as it is. Essentially, yes, it is "Improved Feint" but using Perform instead of Bluff, plus a dash of the same treatment for the "distract to hide" trick (move action, Perform instead of Bluff).I would say you could use any kind of performance - your sudden dramatic flourish of music, song, acting, comedic pratfall, oratorical lunacy in the midst of bloodshed, a furl of the sequined cape, a dazzling pirouette, or anything could give your opponent enough of a momentary WTF? moment to allow you to slip your rapier into his ribs or to dash off to cover.
This seems like wishful thinking, since playing a musical instrument would provoke an attack of opportunity in combat. The other types of Perform might work this way. I would say that any performance type that does not work this way in combat should have some benefit to spellcasting instead, possibly denying the target a Wisdom bonus on saves (mentally flat-footed), or adding any metamagic feat other than quicken spell.
As a side note, perhaps the most interesting application of the "distraction to hide" trick as a move action would be to use your standard action to Ready another action. This requires that your Stealth check last until the beginning of your next turn (as opposed to the end of your current turn), but you flourish, take a 5-foot sidestep, and then ready yourself to leap out at the crucial moment BUM-BUM-BAAAAAAAMMMMM with all your bardly sense of impeccable dramatic timing.I dunno, I like the idea. I just think it feels very bardly.
I agree. I like the impeccable timing part.
Wow, I really like the idea behind this Jason! Even if it doesn't get added as a class feature, this would make a great feat for Bards. :D
