This is a simple example of exactly how powerful the Druid's shaping abilities still are. I am not a studly optimizer and I'm sure some folks will call this a weak build. I do try and make some intelligent choices about the character's build though and the druid is designed to be good at shaping. He is also a full 9 level caster but since he is designed around shaping his spell DCs are a bit lower and he's shy a few bonus spells. He makes up for this by casting mostly self buffs and summoning. One note, without a WIS boosting item he can't cast 8th level spells until 16th level or 9th level spells until 20th.
A few quick notes before I put up the build. AC is a big concern with Shaping Druids as is the fact that stat boosting items don't stack with Enhancement Bonuses from Wild Shaping. While these are issues there are ways to work around them. The biggest thing is that a wild shape druid needs to have decent combat stats, druids can no longer dump STR and DEX. For this reason the Half-Orc and the Dwarf are the best choices for making druids as shapers because the racial bonuses boost WIS and a combat stat. The Half Orc is particularly good because the strength bonus.
The other piece of the problem is the stat boosting items, this is fortunately not that tough a problem to crack. The different Wild Shapes tend to boost either Strength -or- Dexterity and usually not both. Rely on Wild shape to boost the one stat and purchase stat boosting items to boost the other. In my case I'm building a STR based druid so his STR will be high, his DEX good and his DEX will be boosted using either cat's grace or a belt.
So... on to the build, this is a 15 point build,
Magic Items:
I want to build a reasonable 11th level druid that a character would have. Page 293 in the beta pegs 11th level character's gold at 82,000gp.
As such I figured on the following 2 items:
- Ring of protection +3 (18,000gp)
- Belt of incredible dex +4 (16,000gp)
These items are well withing the characters means and well established non-cheese items. For some serious and legal cheesiness (Please Fix this stuff!!):
Yet more Cheese, Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 for a mere 20,000 GP will grant a +2 on all natural weapons, GWM grants a +1 on all natural weapons but to get +2 you need to enchant all 3-5 of them individually.
I also assume the druid buffs every day with a few hours/ day spells: Greater Magic Fang, Stoneskin.
Beyond that minor buffing I won't talk about how Grognar tosses around spells to supplement his tactics or how he coordinates with his pet megaraptor skippy in combat. I'm just focused on the druid and his shaping.
Grognar - 11th level Half Orc Druid
STR: 18 (15 + 2 racial + 1 4th level bump)
DEX: 18 (14 + 4 Enhancement Due to Belt)
CON: 12
INT: 8 (10 - 2 racial)
WIS: 16 (13 + 2 racial + 1 8th level bump)
CHA: 8
BAB +8
Feats: Dodge, Imp Init, Natural Spell, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Toughness
Skills: 11 ranks in: Acrobatics, Spellcraft, Survival
At 11th level Grognar has Beast Shape(BS) I - III, Elemental Body(EB) I - III, and Plant Shape(PS) II he can shift into everything from T to T (Titmouse to T-Rex). He can shift 4 times per day and stay in animal form for 11 hours/ day.
Key:
Df = Deflection Bonus from Ring
NA = Natural Armor
Sz = Size Adjustment
Dg = Dodge Bonus (+2 because of 10 ranks in acro)
Some interesting shapes.
BS II Large Animal, AC 21 (Dx+3, Df+3, NA+4, Sz-1, Dg+2) STR 22
- Megaraptor: Talons +14 melee (2d6+7) and 2 foreclaws +9 melee (1d4+4) and bite +9 melee (1d8+4) <- 4 Attacks on a Pounce++
- Dire Bear: 2 claws +14 (2d4+7), bite +9 (2d8+4) + Improved Grab (Grapple as Free action)
BS III Huge Animal, AC 21 (Dx+2, Df+3, NA+6, Sz-2, Dg+2) STR 24
- Elephant: Trample - take a 15' wide 80' long path. Everyone in that path takes 2d8+10 damage. Repeat next round. Also, can carry a small halfling village on top.
- Oh yeah, or Elephant: Slam +15 melee (2d6+8) and 2 stamps +10 melee (2d6+4);
EB II:
- Medium Earth Elemental, AC 24 (Dx+4, Df+3, NA+5, Dg+2) STR 22
Slam +15 (1d8+7) - Earthglide* and Push
- Medium Fire Elemental, AC 22 (Dx+4, Df+3, NA+3, Dg+2) STR 18
Slam +13 (1d6+5 plus 1d6 fire) plus Burn 1d4 rounds (ref 14 to avoid)
EB III:
- Large Earth Elemental, AC 23 (Dx+3, Df+3, NA+6, Sz-1, Dg+2) STR 24
2 slam attacks +15 (2d8+8)
Special: Push and Earthglide*, Immune to Critcal Hits and Sneak Attack
I'm sure I missed plenty of great shapes, I didn't even get into the flying creatures or poison. Overall wildshape is still awesome. If space is constrained the usefulness of wildshape is diminished a bit but there are many many places where large creatures can romp.
On the fighter discussion threads there was a conversation about a fighter being able to add a feat as a standard action once per day. Many people argued against it. The druid can do exactly that and mulitple times per day with Wild Shape. You want to Bullrush someone? Switch to an Earth Elemental and you get Push. Dire Wolf gets better than Improved Trip free on a hit. Improved Grapple? Why Bother when the Dire Bear gets Improved Grab (auto grapple on hit).
In certain constrained circumstances fighter or barbarians can dish out a lot of direct damage in a very small area but overall it doesn't look like the wildshape 'nerf' is going to dethrone the druid as king of melee. You just have to spend a little effort getting him there now... and he still has full spellcasting and his pet dinosaur.
Ok, these are not criticisms, but questions, because I am admittedly unclear on the limitations of the new polymorph school of spells, thus the current state of wild shape.
1) do items such as rings, belts, amulets, etc. no longer meld into the caster's body when he polymorphs? If not, obviously not too much of an obstacle as long as you have helpful friends who are willing to help outfit you after you wild shape, but still a tactical consideration if you find yourself in combat while in a form that is not optimal for the current fight.
2) do the new polymorph spells allow for the full spectrum of attacks available to the form you have changed into? ie. do you actually get the multiple attacks and pounce special attack available to an actual megaraptor, or the free trip attempt special attack of the wolf, or the improved grab feat of the bear?
3) does wild shaping for the druid require the material component that the corresponding polymorph spell requires, namely a body part of the creature to be transformed into? If so, do you purchase said component from a wizard who has cast gentle repose on them, hire a wizard to come on safari with you, or rely solely on non-perishable body parts such as teeth, horns, etc.?
4) finally, if you choose to use only the rules that have been released so far in the beta, what is your best choice of tactic when facing an enemy which has DR/good or other such situations where the combination of fighter and magic weapon or weapon buff is usually needed to bypass the obstacle?
Please forgive my ignorance of the druid and the polymorph school, as I have been focusing on play testing the cleric and the fighter, and have not yet tried out the druid or wizard/sorcerer in PFRPG.
1) do items such as rings, belts, amulets, etc. no longer meld into the caster's body when he polymorphs?
They do, but they still work if they provide a constant always-on bonus like a ring of protection or a belt of dexterity. Unless it's an armor bonus - so as written, bracers of armor stop working in wild shape. That seems like a bug to me.
2) do the new polymorph spells allow for the full spectrum of attacks available to the form you have changed into? ie. do you actually get the multiple attacks and pounce special attack available to an actual megaraptor, or the free trip attempt special attack of the wolf, or the improved grab feat of the bear?
There's a special list of abilities you can get for each spell. Beast Shape I doesn't grant any of these, but BS2 and above do. So at 8th level, a wildshaping druid could pick up pounce, trip, or improved grab.
3) does wild shaping for the druid require the material component that the corresponding polymorph spell requires, namely a body part of the creature to be transformed into?
I don't think so - Wild Shape is a Supernatural ability, so it shouldn't have components.
4) finally, if you choose to use only the rules that have been released so far in the beta, what is your best choice of tactic when facing an enemy which has DR/good or other such situations where the combination of fighter and magic weapon or weapon buff is usually needed to bypass the obstacle?
1) Shift large and Power Attack to try to overcome the DR that way
2) Cry like a 3.5 rogue fighting undead3) Fall back on your spellcasting
I think most of these questions are addressed pretty clearly either under the description of the Polymorph subschool or under the individual polymorph spell (e.g. Beast Shape II), but here are the answers:
1) Items meld, but if an item provides a constant bonus (that isn't an armor bonus) and doesn't need to be activated, it still works while melded.
2) It depends on the spell (or spell-equivalent) used to shapeshift. So a level 4 druid would not get a leopard's pounce ability (because "pounce" is not listed under Beast Shape I), but a level 6 druid would (because it's listed under Beast Shape II).
3) No, (Su) abilities don't need spell components.
4) Pathfinder has a spell called "Align Fang" that would work against DR/good. Against DR/silver or DR/cold iron, you could buy an Amulet of Mighty Fists +3, but that would be quite expensive.
Ok, these are not criticisms, but questions, because I am admittedly unclear on the limitations of the new polymorph school of spells, thus the current state of wild shape.
1) do items such as rings, belts, amulets, etc. no longer meld into the caster's body when he polymorphs? If not, obviously not too much of an obstacle as long as you have helpful friends who are willing to help outfit you after you wild shape, but still a tactical consideration if you find yourself in combat while in a form that is not optimal for the current fight.
2) do the new polymorph spells allow for the full spectrum of attacks available to the form you have changed into? ie. do you actually get the multiple attacks and pounce special attack available to an actual megaraptor, or the free trip attempt special attack of the wolf, or the improved grab feat of the bear?
3) does wild shaping for the druid require the material component that the corresponding polymorph spell requires, namely a body part of the creature to be transformed into? If so, do you purchase said component from a wizard who has cast gentle repose on them, hire a wizard to come on safari with you, or rely solely on non-perishable body parts such as teeth, horns, etc.?
4) finally, if you choose to use only the rules that have been released so far in the beta, what is your best choice of tactic when facing an enemy which has DR/good or other such situations where the combination of fighter and magic weapon or weapon buff is usually needed to bypass the obstacle?
Please forgive my ignorance of the druid and the polymorph school, as I have been focusing on play testing the cleric and the fighter, and have not yet tried out the druid or wizard/sorcerer in PFRPG.
Ok, well considering the answers to my questions, and the stat-blocks provided by the OP, I have to say, certainly viable in combat, but in every case lacking in AC despite the wild armor, and thus will last shorter periods of time in melee than equivalent level fighter, and need to fall back to heal on a regular basis. But that's as it should be, and certainly not over-powered, so not in need of nerfing or buffing as other threads seem to be focused on.
Seems PFRPG has gotten this part of the druid pretty well pegged. Also makes me interested in seeing what a transformation specialist wizard or sorcerer who focuses on polymorph might be capable of. (of course these would not have the option of natural spell, but I have played druids in the past without it, and didn't feel I was terribly crippled)
I think it's a bit odd to spend so much on a Ring of Protection and ignore Wild armor/shield that's basically the same price; I don't know why it's supposed to be "cheesy".
By the way, why not add an example of Shambling Mound form, just for completeness?
EDIT: Here it is.
Plant Shape II:
Shambling Mound, AC 22 (Dx+4, Df+3, NA+4, Dodge+2, Size -1) STR 22
2 Slams [+8 BAB, +6 Str, -1 size, +1 GMFang] (2d6+7) - Improved Grab, resist electricity 20, resist fire 20*, constrict 2d6+10, immunity to criticals and sneak attacks**, walk 20, swim 20, +11 hp
* According to my reading of Plant Shape II, if you turn into a shambling mound with resist fire 10, that gives you resist fire 20. Huh?
** Why does Plant Shape give you immunity to sneak attacks? I thought the implication was that almost everything would be sneak attack-able.
EDIT 2: You also forgot my favourite Beast Shape -- giant octopus. :-)
I think it's a bit odd to spend so much on a Ring of Protection and ignore Wild armor/shield that's basically the same price; I don't know why it's supposed to be "cheesy".
I think it's cheesy because it adds an armor bonus when the armor melds into the body. If you think the Wild armor isn't cheesy then just add 5 to all the ACs, easy enough.
By the way, why not add an example of Shambling Mound form, just for completeness?
Just ran out of time/ willingness to do it.
** Why does Plant Shape give you immunity to sneak attacks? I thought the implication was that almost everything would be sneak attack-able.
Elemental Body II does also.
EDIT 2: You also forgot my favourite Beast Shape -- giant octopus. :-)
I missed tons of great shapes.
I didn't do any swimmers or any fliers for starters.
Ok, well considering the answers to my questions, and the stat-blocks provided by the OP, I have to say, certainly viable in combat, but in every case lacking in AC despite the wild armor, and thus will last shorter periods of time in melee than equivalent level fighter, and need to fall back to heal on a regular basis. But that's as it should be, and certainly not over-powered, so not in need of nerfing or buffing as other threads seem to be focused on.
I would be curious to see a comparable level (11th level 15 point build) fighter or barbarian and what it looks like. I take comments like this with a grain of salt without some sort of backing.
As for his AC being low... compared to what? I'd like see something you are comparing it to. You say his AC is low 'despite' wild armor but I didn't use wild armor in this build. Add 5 to all of the ACs for a Wild Dragonskin Breastplate +1 then do you still think his AC is low? Also keep in mind that while his AC is 'low' he also has DR 10/ Adamantine in any shape due to Stoneskin.
Seems PFRPG has gotten this part of the druid pretty well pegged. Also makes me interested in seeing what a transformation specialist wizard or sorcerer who focuses on polymorph might be capable of. (of course these would not have the option of natural spell, but I have played druids in the past without it, and didn't feel I was terribly crippled)
If this were the only 'part' to the druid then I would think they nailed it. Unfortunately there are 2 other parts. One of them comes with a full set of limbs to attack all those magic items that don't work so great on the druid... the other is a full 9 level spellcaster.
Actually... I can post a fighter or barbarian build but I'm not entirely sure I would do a great job. I've already noticed some problems with my druid... with his high DEX and reach he should probably take combat reflexes which would give him control over a huge part of the battlefield.
Multiclass Cheese:
- Instead of going druid 11 he could go druid 10/ monk 1 and get a +3... on his AC due to the WIS to AC from the monk. Then when he snags a headband of wisdom his AC would bump up another +2. This obviously would't work with Wild Armor. The Monk dip would also do great things to the druids saves and... can you flurry of blows with a bite attack or a tail slap?
- A 1 level dip in sorcerer would get 4 shield spells/ day for another +4 on AC when which stacks with everything.
- Barbarian rage strength bonus stacks with Wild Shape so grab 2 levels of barbarian to pick up fast move, uncanny dodge, a rage power, and 8 rounds of rage...
Overall you are probably better just sticking with druid 11 but those were some thoughts I had. A 1 level Monk dip would be sorely tempting though.
Overall you are probably better just sticking with druid 11 but those were some thoughts I had. A 1 level Monk dip would be sorely tempting though.
There's no other way to get WIS to AC is there ?
although once you take that lv of monk a "monk robe" becomes a very attractive piece of equipment
The biggest problem I find with the current Wild Shape is that it really only lends itself to high strength characters as opposed to all characters evenly.
The biggest problem I find with the current Wild Shape is that it really only lends itself to high strength characters as opposed to all characters evenly.
But why should all druids be equally good at melee, regardless of Str?
The biggest problem I find with the current Wild Shape is that it really only lends itself to high strength characters as opposed to all characters evenly.But why should all druids be equally good at melee, regardless of Str?
It was just a nice thing not having one more stat to deal with, that's all. Not to mention it seems silly to have a border collie (for example) running around with an 18 STR. At least on the upside, there isn't a problem with taking a form whose stats are lower than yours.
Some interesting shapes.
BS II Large Animal, AC 21 (Dx+3, Df+3, NA+4, Sz-1, Dg+2) STR 22Megaraptor: Talons +14 melee (2d6+7) and 2 foreclaws +9 melee (1d4+4) and bite +9 melee (1d8+4) <- 4 Attacks on a Pounce++
Dire Bear: 2 claws +14 (2d4+7), bite +9 (2d8+4) + Improved Grab (Grapple as Free action)
BS III Huge Animal, AC 21 (Dx+2, Df+3, NA+6, Sz-2, Dg+2) STR 24
Elephant: Trample - take a 15' wide 80' long path. Everyone in that path takes 2d8+10 damage. Repeat next round. Also, can carry a small halfling village on top.
Oh yeah, or Elephant: Slam +15 melee (2d6+8) and 2 stamps +10 melee (2d6+4);
So I took the liberty of comparing that to a very quickly generated fighter. I used almost the same ability scores you did (15-point buy) and the same two magical items (STR instead of DEX). I also assumed a standard set of +3 armor and +3 sword and I am still very far under the coin limit of 11th level.
Fighter: AC: 30 (armor +14, Dx +2, Def +3, Dodge +1) STR 22
Attack: Greatsword +16, +11, +6 (2d6+26, 17-20/x2 + 2d6 bleed)
or Vital Strike: +16, +11 (4d6+26, 17-20/x2 + 2d6 bleed)
(Power Attack, Improved Crit, Weapon Focuses and Specialization alredy figured in)
Now compare these two in a fight. Fighter's 117 Hp vs. druid's 83 HP (both average values).
Elephant Druid full attack vs. fighter: needs to roll a 15 to slam for 2d6+8 (30% chance to hit, average 15 damage) and needs to roll a natural 20 to stomp for 2d6+4 (5% chance to hit, average 11 damage - I will assume almost none of these confirm the crit). This means in 10 rounds the druid will do about 56 HP damage to the fighter (obviously taking averages) and will need 21 rounds to win this fight (20 rounds if he manages a critical hit with his 6 slams he has almost a 50% chance to confirm one critical hit and he has about a 10% chance during 20 rounds to confirm one of his 40 stomps). So call it 20 rounds.
Fighter vs. druid: Vital Striking he needs to roll a 5 and a 10 to do 4d6+26 (80% and 55% chances, average 40 damage). This means in 10 rounds he will hit 13 times for 520 HP damage but will really only need 3 rounds, and might need only 2 rounds (about a 50/50 chance he gets 3 hits in the first two rounds, and there is an additional chance, about 1 in 3, that one of his first two hits is a critical - either way the fight ends in 2 rounds, which means he has better than a 50/50 chance to finish in 2 rounds).
Now sure, before anyone gets up in my face and says druids should not be able to replace the group's primary fighter, I want to say I agree wholeheartedly.
Again for emphasis, no way should a druid be anywhere close to as tough as the group's fighter.
But, on the other hand, if the party is fighting something that is a melee challenge for a fighter, and the druid decides "hey, I'll change into an elephant and help out", it's very very clear that the druid will be nothing more than a tiny annoyance to the monster that is challenging the fighter.
Seems to me, if Wildshape is going to be remotely useful as a combat tactic, the first thing we need to do is fix it so that it can be, well, remotely useful in combat...
My Grognar's stat block:
Male dwarf Fighter 11
CN Medium humanoid
Init +2 ; Senses Perception +0, Darkvision 60 ft. (+2 taste-based, +2 touch-based)
==DEFENSE==
AC 29, touch 15, flat-footed 27 (+14 armor, +2 dex, +3 deflection)
hp 117 (11d10+47)
Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +4
Defensive Abilities Hearty, Defensive Training, Stability, Bravery
==OFFENSE==
Spd 20 ft./x3
Melee +3 Greatsword +22/+17/+12 2d6+14 17-20/x2
Special Attacks Hatred, Cleave, Overhand Chop, Power Attack, Vital Strike
==STATISTICS==
Str 22, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +11, Cmb +17
Feats Armor Proficiency (Heavy) (PFB 82), Armor Proficiency (Light) (PFB 82), Armor Proficiency (Medium) (PFB 82), Bleeding Critical (PFPT 11/10/08), Cleave (PFB 83), Critical Focus (PFPT 11/10/08), Greater Weapon Focus (PFB 87), Improved Critical (PFB 87), Overhand Chop (PFB 92), Power Attack (PFB 92), Shield Proficiency (PFB 94), Toughness (PFB 95), Vital Strike (PFB 96-97), Weapon Focus (PFB 97), Weapon Specialization (PFB 97)
Skills
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ Keen Senses
Combat Gear +3 Greatsword, Full plate +3
Other Gear Armor & Shield, Weapons
Quick question
why is everyone trying to turn the druid into the melee powerhouse it used to be ;)
you do all realize wildshape has other non huge STR bonus uses ;)
Riddle me this
High Dex Druid + Huge Air Elemental + Whirlwind + Lightning Storm
the said fighter is now imoblie in a tornado taking 2d8 dmg per a round plus a pre cast lightning storm is now hitting for 5d10 dmg per round as well.
alternatively said druid takes a diminutve flying form and buzzes around the fighter out of reach and spamming the crap outta him with all manner of spells.
druid is not a one trick STR melee pony ;)
Because turining into a T-Rex is cooler than turning into a tiny whirlwind.
Because it can still be done, just not by an 8 str gnome.
Because turining into a T-Rex is cooler than turning into a tiny whirlwind.
Because it can still be done, just not by an 8 str gnome.
I think there should be a mechanic in wild-shaping based upon whether you go up or down a size, in addition to the other benefits of the change. Ideally, there would be a change in Str and Dex for going up or down a size category from your natural state.
This means that the same 8 Str gnome would gain more than the 18 Str half-orc out of changing into a size medium creature. While the half-orc would still be the superior melee fighter, it would make the small druids a little more viable.
So I took the liberty of comparing that to a very quickly generated fighter.
Wow, the that fighter puts the druid to shame and you didn't even include Weapon Training (+2 attack, +2 damage more). I don't mind the fighter whooping the druid in melee because that's what a fighter should be doing, but wow the druid looks like merely an annoyance compared to the effectiveness of the fighter in melee.
Idont think you should put the druid down, just because the fighter is awesome.
With out a fighter in the group, that druid would be just fine. And certainly compared to a cleric or a non combat built rogue, still superior.
Most bad guys will still cower in fear from the melee prowess of the druid.
Just that the fighter is MEANT to kill the jaberwocky. Thats what he does.
Idont think you should put the druid down, just because the fighter is awesome.
With out a fighter in the group, that druid would be just fine. And certainly compared to a cleric or a non combat built rogue, still superior.
Most bad guys will still cower in fear from the melee prowess of the druid.
Just that the fighter is MEANT to kill the jaberwocky. Thats what he does.
I disagree.
If it comes to melee (and it almost always does) then it's not just a question of whether you win or lose, but also of how well you win.
Unless you plan to fight one CR 11 encounter then sleep away the whole day to recover all the healing resources you spent keeping that druid alive, you better plan ahead to win the fight very well.
With the fighter, he kills the enemy quickly, and avoids a good deal of the damage with his high AC.
With the wildshaped druid, the fight takes longer, so the enemy can make more attacks against the druid. And with the druid's lower AC and the enemy's greater number of attacks over the longer fight, the enemy is certain to hit the druid a lot more than it will hit the fighter.
Which means more healing resources expended to recover.
While it may be true that the fighter is meant to kill the jabberwocky, it's also true, and perhaps moreso, that he is meant to efficiently kill our regular rank and file encounters without demanding too much of the party's resources to keep him alive.
Otherwise we are stuck with our old friend, the 5-minute adventuring day.
So what's the point of my complaint that the druid is weak in wildshape?
Isn't the druid supposed to be a spellcaster?
Doesn't he have a great spell list full of wonderful options he can use to blow away his enemies?
Of course he does.
The druid is a fine spellcaster in his own somewhat limited way.
He can't heal as well as a cleric, he can't destroy as well as a sorcerer, and he cannot control a battlefield as well as a wizard.
But he can do a little of all of that, so he's perfect within that role.
My complaint is that he has been given an ability. Wildshape. A huge chunk of his class feature list is consumed describing how and when and how much he can us this abiity. It's a class-defining feature.
And yet, it's very weak.
If the druid insists on "saving his spells" by wildshaping and charging into battle alongside his fighter/barbarian/paladin/ranger/rogue allies, he is going to get clobbered. He can't handle it. He will blow more spells healing himself than he would have blown simply blasting the enemies and summoning little pets to fight.
This class-defining ability of the druid is actually a trap.
If he's foolish enough to use it, it will be a big resource drain on the group as a whole.
Unless the DM is kind enough to flub a few rolls on the sly to let him get away with it.
That's what I want fixed.
I don't want him to overshadow the party's melee characters. I don't want him to even equal them.
But to be barely fit to lick their boots is not an acceptable level for this class-defining ability.
Question: Is there anything stopping a druid who takes a humanoid form such as an elemental shape from putting on / using an item once in that form? So could they wear armour and gain the armour bonus, or weild a shield and gain the sheild bonus. Or indeed could they wear a ring that had an activation item. There doesn't seem anything that stops that from happening in the rules, but just seeing what everyones thoughts are.
Only problems I see is the item would need to be big enough to fit the new shape, and then actually be able to put the weapons on. Thoughts?
Question: Is there anything stopping a druid who takes a humanoid form such as an elemental shape from putting on / using an item once in that form? So could they wear armour and gain the armour bonus, or weild a shield and gain the sheild bonus. Or indeed could they wear a ring that had an activation item. There doesn't seem anything that stops that from happening in the rules, but just seeing what everyones thoughts are.
Only problems I see is the item would need to be big enough to fit the new shape, and then actually be able to put the weapons on. Thoughts?
I'd allow that for sure and I don't see anything in the rules that says differently. I think armor and shields with the Wild enchantment would be easier to deal with, but putting on armor or using a shield or weapon after the change works too.
I think one should look at the druid class in its entirety, instead of focusing on just one aspect when comparing it to other classes. Sure the fighter puts the druid to shame when it comes to a pure stand up fight, but the druid has a lot more to offer than just his wild shape. While the wild shape helps the druid fare better in a fight, he should also be using his summon nature's ally spells and his animal companion to overwhelm the opposition.
While his allies occupies the fighter the druid could stand back using produce flame, heat metal, ice storm and other blasting spells to soften his foes, or beef his allies with spells such as animal growth and greater magic fang, only when it would be absolutely necessary should he resort to his wild shape.
The problem I have with the new wild shape rules is that PC vs NPC druids are wildly imbalanced. Take, for example, a Frost Giant druid wildshaping into a Dire Bear. The Pathfinder version gains +6 natural armor, +2 strength, -6 dexterity, and +2 constitution over the 3.5 version. Now compare that to a human druid wildshaping into the same Dire Bear. The Pathfinder druid (assuming 13 strength, 12 dex, 14 con, 17 wis base stats) gets -3 natural armor, -14 strength, -2 dexterity, and -5 constitution compared to the 3.5 version.
With the current Pathfinder rules, compared to the Frost Giant, the poor human gets -9 natural armor, -16 strength, +4 dexterity, and -7 constitution. All from the same class feature, with the same class levels, mimicking the same creature. That's not balanced.
I think one should look at the druid class in its entirety, instead of focusing on just one aspect when comparing it to other classes. Sure the fighter puts the druid to shame when it comes to a pure stand up fight, but the druid has a lot more to offer than just his wild shape.
Except, one of the major features of the druid is wildshape, and that major feature gives the illusion that the druid can turn into a big bad ugly and pound on his enemies.
But it's only an illusion.
It's not really a big bad cave bear assaulting the enemies. It's a druid in a cave bear suit. Wielding fake cave bear claws, powered by his scrawny druid arms, missing more than he hits because his BAB sucks, and only scratching the enemies when he does hit. Until they tire of him and kill him with his weak AC and low HP.
While the wild shape helps the druid fare better in a fight, he should also be using his summon nature's ally spells and his animal companion to overwhelm the opposition.
Sure, at higher level.
But at 1st level, when it takes a full round to summon an animal that lasts only 1 round? So, on round 1, the druid does nothing but cast. On round two, he plinks an orc with his sling while his badger bites the orc on the ankle and then poofs away.
At 2nd level, the druid can plink with two sling bullets and the badger can bite the hobgoblin's ankles twice before it goes away.
What are the other primary spellcasters doing? Putting multiple orcs to sleep, wiping them out with spells like Color Spray or Magic Missile to get the casters in the back. Or just killing them with at-will energy bolts that they never run out of and can hit touch AC instead of full AC.
Summon... Plink. Nibble... Summon... Plink. Nibble.
Hmmm, not much of a comparison.
While his allies occupies the fighter the druid could stand back using produce flame, heat metal, ice storm and other blasting spells to soften his foes, or beef his allies with spells such as animal growth and greater magic fang, only when it would be absolutely necessary should he resort to his wild shape.
Yep, he can indeed.
So why does he have these other class features? Why give him a pet that will just get itself killed? Why give him Wildshape if it is usually just a liability?
Why not just remove these two features entirely.
That way, at least new players playing a druid will understand that the best thing they can do in a battle is stnd back using the spells you mentioned to soften his foes.
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I have never claimed that the druid doesn't have options.
However, I'm really trying to get my head around finding a reason to play a druid.
Want to be a healer? Well, you suck compared to a cleric. Your party dies.
Want to be a buffer? Well, OK, you're not bad, but you could have been a cleric and been just as good AND you could heal and wear better armor.
Want to be a nuker? Well, you suck. Reroll as a sorcerer and actually help your party for a change.
Want to be a cool wilderness dude? Well, reroll as a ranger and actually help your party for a change.
What's left?
Oh, I know:
Want to be a druid? Well, great, you picked the perfect class (druid) to satisfy your desire to be a druid. Except, your wildshape is so useless that it will be a liability to your party's resources if you use it for any combat application (though it's not bad for scouting/reconnaisance). Your animal companion will be a really weak fighter that accomplishes next to nothing but does take extra time to resolve in combat, slowing everyone down for little gain. And your spell list is weaker than any other class of primary caster. In essence, your 3 iconic, core class abilities are all sub-par compared to the main 3 class abilities of any other class in the game, except maybe the bard.
So, if you roll a druid, make sure when you apply to the local adventuring group, that your only competition in the tryouts that day are bards.
The problem I have with the new wild shape rules is that PC vs NPC druids are wildly imbalanced. Take, for example, a Frost Giant druid wildshaping into a Dire Bear. The Pathfinder version gains +6 natural armor, +2 strength, -6 dexterity, and +2 constitution over the 3.5 version. Now compare that to a human druid wildshaping into the same Dire Bear. The Pathfinder druid (assuming 13 strength, 12 dex, 14 con, 17 wis base stats) gets -3 natural armor, -14 strength, -2 dexterity, and -5 constitution compared to the 3.5 version.
With the current Pathfinder rules, compared to the Frost Giant, the poor human gets -9 natural armor, -16 strength, +4 dexterity, and -7 constitution. All from the same class feature, with the same class levels, mimicking the same creature. That's not balanced.
My hat is off to you, Zurai.
I had not even considered this ramification.
If Pathfinder puts out this weak nerfed druid class, first thing I'm gonna do is have giant NPC druids open serious cans of whoopass on the PCs...
My hat is off to you, Zurai.
I had not even considered this ramification.
I didn't realize it until recently, either. I was brainstorming for villain ideas for RPG Superstar, should I ever get to a villain round, and hit upon a kraken druid out to drown the world. Then I realized how absurd its stats would be in wild shape. Then I realized how unfair it was.
The larger druids is precisely the reason I believe that a size modifier should be put into play. I'm going to have to wing this as I'm typing at work and don't have my books handy.
In PF, a Frost Giant/Lvl 6 druid takes the shape of a Dire Bear. Checking the spell (IIRC) taking a large form gives +6 Str, -2 Dex, giving the Frost Giant a Str total of 35 (base 29+6) in exchange for a small decrease in Dex.
On the other hand, let's take a lvl 6 human druid (Str, Dex and Con all 14) with a roughly average 46 hp (8+(40/2)+12+6)(First level+(Max HP for next 5 lvls/2)+Con+Preferred Class Bonus) taking the same shape. First we take the stat bonuses from the spell of +6 Str and -2 Dex. Then we factor in the bonuses from going up to a Large creature from Medium of +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex. This brings the human druid up to a whopping 32 Str and 18 Con, while dropping Dex to 10. The human druid would probably need some maintenance healing, but comes a lot closer to being able to stand against the Frost Giant in its alternate form. Keep in mind also, there's additional bonuses to natural armor class for the size increase as well.
Again, forgive any inaccuracies. I'll check my math and update when I get home.
Update on my previous scenario:
As much as I like the idea of a Frost Giant druid, let's start with something a little closer to what our 6th level human druid might actually be up against.
We'll start with a lvl 6 Ogre druid. Starting stats are Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, 65 hp (slightly more if max 1st lvl druid hp are used) and an AC of 13 without armor. After double-checking the spell and the various stats, the Ogre in Dire Bear form would have a Str 25, Dex 6, and AC of 17, with no change in Con or HP.
On the other hand, our lvl 6 human druid with Str 14, Dex 14 and Con 14 with 46 hp and an AC of 12 without armor. Beast Form II gives a +4 Str, -2 Dex and +4 natural armor which would give the human druid Str 18, Dex 12 and an overall AC of 16 with no change in Con or HP.
Now, let's apply the bonuses for the human druid's increase in size. This would add an additional +8 Str, -2 Dex and +2 natural armor. Additionally, the druid would gain a +4 Con and take a -1 Size penalty to AC. Applying all this would give the human druid a 26 Str, 10 Dex and 18 Con with 58 hp. AC, sadly, would not change due to the additional Dex and size penalties cancelling out the +2 natural he gets from going up a size category staying at 16.
Now we have a more even fight with our human druid giving up a small amount of HP and AC for a slightly higher strength. While there are numerous other base creatures that would give our human druid a much tougher battle, adding in the benefits for size change allow for the smaller races to keep up in the battle of survival of the fittest.
If you really want to persist with the melee druid just ask your DM to double the highest bonus the form grants up to a maximum of your current druid level.
e.g.
Beast Shape I
Medium +2STR +2AC => +4STR +2AC or +2STR +4AC
Elemental Body IV (at 12th level)
Earth Elemental +8STR-> +16STR (but capped at +12 at 12th level ) would increase to +13STR at 13th level up to +16STR at 16th.
other forms would grant very high DEX or CON which can be useful depending on situation.
The larger druids is precisely the reason I believe that a size modifier should be put into play. I'm going to have to wing this as I'm typing at work and don't have my books handy.
In PF, a Frost Giant/Lvl 6 druid takes the shape of a Dire Bear. Checking the spell (IIRC) taking a large form gives +6 Str, -2 Dex, giving the Frost Giant a Str total of 35 (base 29+6) in exchange for a small decrease in Dex.
On the other hand, let's take a lvl 6 human druid (Str, Dex and Con all 14) with a roughly average 46 hp (8+(40/2)+12+6)(First level+(Max HP for next 5 lvls/2)+Con+Preferred Class Bonus) taking the same shape. First we take the stat bonuses from the spell of +6 Str and -2 Dex. Then we factor in the bonuses from going up to a Large creature from Medium of +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex. This brings the human druid up to a whopping 32 Str and 18 Con, while dropping Dex to 10. The human druid would probably need some maintenance healing, but comes a lot closer to being able to stand against the Frost Giant in its alternate form. Keep in mind also, there's additional bonuses to natural armor class for the size increase as well.
Again, forgive any inaccuracies. I'll check my math and update when I get home.
That's interesting, but wrong. But hey, I was wrong too.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, combat maneuver bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. You ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
(yes, the spelling error is in the printed text too).
That is a little passage in the Magic chapter, uner Transformation Magic. I didn't know it was there. I only found it because I was specifically searching for it to see if what Tom said was correct or not.
I had assumed that the size increase was supposed to be factored into the bonuses already granted by the various Beast Shape spells, but evidently there are hidden modifiers to AC, Attack Bonus, CMB, and Stealth that I had not considered.
And, now that this is mentioned, something should be said in the Beastshape spells to this extent. It should say "Also apply the size adjustments found in table xx on page yyy".
Note that there is no such table yet in Pathfinder (or I just missed it). There is a nice one in the DMG, if I recall, that lists the cumulative modifiers going from size x to size y. Pathfinder should include such a table.
We should make this perfectly clear, in the spell descriptions, so there is no confusion amongst players.
So, to clear up Tom's math:
let's take a lvl 6 human druid (Str, Dex and Con all 14) with a roughly average 46 hp (8+(40/2)+12+6)(First level+(Max HP for next 5 lvls/2)+Con+Preferred Class Bonus) taking the same shape. First we take the stat bonuses from the spell of +6 Str and -2 Dex. Then we factor in the bonuses from going up to a Large creature from Medium of +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex. This brings the human druid up to a whopping 32 Str and 18 Con, while dropping Dex to 10. The human druid would probably need some maintenance healing, but comes a lot closer to being able to stand against the Frost Giant in its alternate form. Keep in mind also, there's additional bonuses to natural armor class for the size increase as well.
Note that STR, DEX, and CON all 14 is impressive, and probably not possible under a point-buy system where WIS is required to be very high, and INT and CHA are hard to dump.
First we take the stat bonuses from the spell of +4 Str and -2 Dex. Then we DON'T factor in the bonuses from going up to a Large creature from Medium of +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex. This brings the human druid up to a meagre 18 Str and 14 Con, while dropping Dex to 12. He also loses -2 from his attack modifier (which offsets the +2 he gains for his bonus STR) and takes -2 to his AC for size and -1 to his AC for reduced DEX, but gains +4 AC from the spell, so gains a whole +1 AC (but he cannot wear armor, unless he has magical armor that works in wildshape forms). His CMB goes up by 2, and his Stealth skill drops by 2.
Net effect (assuming he was wearing simple leather armor):
He gains +2 CMB, and +2 damage
He loses -1 AC, -1 REF save, -1 Initiative, -2 Stealth
He breaks even on HP, Fort Save, etc.
So, basically, he's a weak fighter (druid with poor melee stats - 14 isn't poor, but it's poor for a fighter) in a foam rubber bear suit. His AC sucks (12 + his reduced DEX modifier). His HP are that of a druid, his attacks are weak (Druid BAB and no enhancement for the Wildshape), his damage is mediocre (bear damage with weak druid STR and a minor benefit from the Wildshape). He is slower and easier to kill with fireballs (etc.) and less sneaky.
And this is a core, defining class feature of the druid.
Now I'm going to go home and cry.
I didn't realize it until recently, either. I was brainstorming for villain ideas for RPG Superstar, should I ever get to a villain round, and hit upon a kraken druid out to drown the world. Then I realized how absurd its stats would be in wild shape. Then I realized how unfair it was.My hat is off to you, Zurai.
I had not even considered this ramification.
Oops, we were wrong.
If a polymorph spell is cast by a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell. If the creature’s new size is the same as its previous size, do not make these adjustments.
(table omitted, look it up in the book if you need it)
So it seems that the Kraken is not quite so dangerous as we had thought.
Nice idea though.
Maybe he researched a higher level of the spell, or invented a couple new feats to make it work... :)
If you really want to persist with the melee druid just ask your DM to double the highest bonus the form grants up to a maximum of your current druid level.
e.g.
Beast Shape I
Medium +2STR +2AC => +4STR +2AC or +2STR +4ACElemental Body IV (at 12th level)
Earth Elemental +8STR-> +16STR (but capped at +12 at 12th level ) would increase to +13STR at 13th level up to +16STR at 16th.other forms would grant very high DEX or CON which can be useful depending on situation.
That's all fine and dandy, Pahsics, and it may even be an acceptible fix.
But the idea here, now, is to make rules that work.
If what we want to do is ask our DM to change the rules, then why do we buy the rules from Paizo?
Hey, DM, can you change the rules to let my dwarf fly at will? And to let my brother's wizard cast spells normally in full plate?
Where does it end?
Ultimately, we pay a game company to make a good game. Our good money is spent so we can pick up a package of good rules, saving us the trouble of making our own rules.
Asking the DM to change rules is fine, once we have the book and the bad rules are printed in it.
But now, now's the time for us to influence Paizo, so that they print good rules in the book, so we don't have to ask our DM to fix bad rules that never got printed.