Again, I was working with my wizard and I realised I couldn't craft several of the rings or other items I wanted to becuase I couldn't meet the spell requirements. Some of the items I could craft seemed to me to be ones a wizard should be able to (like the afore mentioned Ring of Protection) including:
Ring of Counterspells (requires imbue with spell ability)
Ring of Spell storing (again as above)
Animated shields
Arrow catching shields
Blinding shields
Armor with spell resistance
Dancing weapons
Mighty cleaving weapons
Throwing weapons
Beyond that only a dual class caster can create the a Staff of Defense.
Maybe including alternate spells that can be used for creating some of these items will help with this (admittly slight) problem.
Creating magical object is a bonus so big that MUST have prerequisites i would like to make these prerequisites even stonger, in order not to loose the 'rarity flavour' of magical objects ... not everyone can make everything ... expecially when you choose a specialist wizard, you gain a lot of advantages, but you must take in accont that you might loose something ...
|
While I agree that crafting magic items should have some limitations, preferrably tied to ranks in a skill (say, 1 formula for each rank of Knowledge/Arcana or Knowledge/Religion), that's not how it is currently, and the OP feels he was hit with a bait-n-switch.
As it stands, the item creator doesn't have to provide all of the spell requirements himself, he can hire a buddy to help. And even if not, he could still use a scroll via Use Magic Device to get it done.
|
While we're on the subject of magic item creation, this would be a great opportunity to rethink the feats required.
As it stands, a caster can take one feat to make a scroll, a different feat to make a potion, a third feat to make a wand, a fourth feat to make a ring, etc.
Or, he can take one feat, and make any item he likes, in any body slot, charged, permanent, uses per day, class-specific or general, which works like any of the above, via Craft Wondrous Item.
Gloves of Magic Missiles; spell-trigger item, point your finger, fire 50 shots then crumble.
How is that not a wand?
Voodoo Doll; spell-completion item, arcane caster only, provokes AoO. Pull it out, stick a pin in it, acts as finger of death.
How is that not a scroll?
This trend only got worse in the Magic Item Compendium, which is full of ways to sidestep using the correct feats, not to mention, pre-requisites which are just plain wrong.
(Who needs Quicken Spell, to make an item of spell-quickening? s long as you have access to the Freedom of Movement spell, which is famous for granting this ability! Errr...no.)
Let's have feats that allow the creation of items based on their specifications;
Create Minor Item, leading to
Create Medium Item, leading to
Create Major Item
Create Charged Item, leading to
Create Daily Use Item, leading to
Create Permanent Item
Create Caster-Only Item, leading to
Create General-User Item, etc
Thus, the typical Sword +1 is a Minor, Permanent, General User Item.
A scroll of Disintegrate is a Medium, Charged, Caster-Only Item, etc
Then, to become a dedicated crafter requries a few feats,, not just the one you buy at level 3.
Thoughts?
|
Let's have feats that allow the creation of items based on their specifications;
Create Minor Item, leading to
Create Medium Item, leading to
Create Major ItemCreate Charged Item, leading to
Create Daily Use Item, leading to
Create Permanent ItemCreate Caster-Only Item, leading to
Create General-User Item, etcThus, the typical Sword +1 is a Minor, Permanent, General User Item.
A scroll of Disintegrate is a Medium, Charged, Caster-Only Item, etcThen, to become a dedicated crafter requries a few feats,, not just the one you buy at level 3.
Thoughts?
Yes.
I would *much* prefer 'create charged item' or 'create consumable item' or 'create spell-completion item' rather than every third splatbook have some sort of feat like 'Gem Magic' that lets you make a gem that acts *exactly like a scroll* or 'Rune Carving' that lets you carve a little runestone that you snap to activate, making it *exactly like a potion.* The Realms has 'em, Eberron has 'em, and I've seen them creep into books like Complete X. Who cares if your 'potion' is a candle that you light? Whoopy. It's a one use item that anyone can activate that holds a spell up to 3rd level. We don't need four different feats to make the same damn thing, one in potion form, one in gem form, one in candle form, one in 'rune' form, etc.
It also bugs me how the Feat heirarchy was set up. Craft Wondrous Item can create items that have *permanant* powers. Craft Staff is harder to qualify for, and creates items that are, for the most part, just stick-shaped scrolls with multiple uses. Whoopty craptidy doo.
I suspect that backwards compatibility is gonna stomp all over this pet peeve of him.
[My other big pet peeve in the Feats is the whole concept of Metamagic. I can't stand the current system (eat a feat, then use a higher level spell slot).]
I don't see the need for a 'Create Minor' 'Create Moderate' and 'Create Major' magic item distinction, 'though. The individual magic item descriptions can state a caster level requirement, if you want to price a particular Staff out of the reach of a certain level of craftsmage.
One use items (scrolls being the default example) usable by casters should be the easiest.
One use items usable by anyone who can activate them (drink the potion, snap the runestick, light the candle, spritz the perform, throw down the amulet) should be next.
Charged items would follow (wands, staves, etc).
Items with daily powers would be next (rods, some weapon / armor properties, some misc items).
Items with continuous or 'always on' powers would be last (most armor and weapon enchantments, most rings, many wondrous items, etc.).
This would change some default assumptions, 'though, as permanant magical weapons and armor might be less common than armor or weapons that have charges or daily activations, while disposable one-shot items (like the beads from a necklace of fireballs) would be more common.
It feels to me like the Magic Item Compendium was trending this way, with a lot of items that could do some little stunt X times per day, rather than more items that had +X and always did extra Sonic damage when they hit or provided Acid Resistance X or whatever.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Let's have feats that allow the creation of items based on their specifications;Create Minor Item, leading to
Create Medium Item, leading to
Create Major ItemCreate Charged Item, leading to
Create Daily Use Item, leading to
Create Permanent ItemCreate Caster-Only Item, leading to
Create General-User Item, etcThus, the typical Sword +1 is a Minor, Permanent, General User Item.
A scroll of Disintegrate is a Medium, Charged, Caster-Only Item, etcThen, to become a dedicated crafter requries a few feats,, not just the one you buy at level 3.
Thoughts?
Interesting. I like the concept, but I think the feats need to be boiled down a little more. Are you saying that a sword +1 would require 5 feats? That seems onerous.
That being said, I like what you're pushing towards and think it's a marked improvement from the current regime.
In my 3.5 campaign I house ruled item creation feats down to Craft Single Use, Craft Charged, and Craft Permanent. I left the minimum caster level limits in pace, so that you needed to be 12th level and have Craft Permanent Item to create most rings.
Something to think about are the 'Magical Artisan' type feats that give a bonus or a price break on one class of item - I left those alone. It also might not work well with letting higher-than-first-level PCs get magical items they could craft for 50% off during character creation.
I figured it was less of an issue in Pathfinder now that characters get more feats, but I still like it and endorse this plan.
|
|
Let's have feats that allow the creation of items based on their specifications;Create Minor Item, leading to
Create Medium Item, leading to
Create Major ItemCreate Charged Item, leading to
Create Daily Use Item, leading to
Create Permanent ItemCreate Caster-Only Item, leading to
Create General-User Item, etc
I love the underlying ideas too. I agree with Sebastian that we could drop minor/medium/major item feats. The feat-tree idea I'm iffy about; I think caster level requirements is fine. Maybe keep arms and armor separate, for thematic reasons. With some work, this could be a vast improvement over 3.5.
I had argued earlier that imbuing items could be, instead of a collection of random feats, resolved by a single Craft (magical items) skill, with DCs scaling by item costs. Wizards could take Skill Focus (Craft magic items) as one of their wizard bonus feats, to gain "virtual ranks."
|
|
I had argued earlier that imbuing items could be, instead of a collection of random feats, resolved by a single Craft (magical items) skill, with DCs scaling by item costs. Wizards could take Skill Focus (Craft magic items) as one of their wizard bonus feats, to gain "virtual ranks."
While this could be one solution, I'm leery of skill-based systems because it's so easy to go completely nuts with them (Cleric Domain powers that give +Cleric level to one skill check, +10 skill-boosting magic items, 40 assistants using Aid Other, etc.).
While this could be one solution, I'm leery of skill-based systems because it's so easy to go completely nuts with them: (a) Cleric Domain powers that give +Cleric level to one skill check, (b) +10 skill-boosting magic items, (c) 40 assistants using Aid Other, etc.
I don't blame you -- those are all good points, that would have to be carefully addressed in the skill description. As an initial "stab":
(a) If you worship the god of magic item creation, this one is no problem -- it would give a bonus better than the wizard's +3 or +6 from Skill Focus, but you'd be using a class feature to do so. Other deities might resent channeling their divine gifts into mortal trinkets, however. Some DM adjudication would be needed.(b) Flat ixnay on the "magic items for creating more magic items." Just as you can't wish for more wishes, so too you can't make items to make items.
(c) Assistants would be cool... if they also met all the prerequisites, and had to handle the item in question (setting a practical limit of 7 assistants due to space concerns, even if you can find more people with that much magical might who are willing to help).
How about having the caracter buy the scroll he need for the item creation and use it with the use magic devise skill?That seem resonable to me.
Monte Cook's Arcane Unearthed/Arcane Evolved setting had the following craft feats:
Craft Arms and Armor - magic weapons and armor
Craft Charged Item - spell trigger items, such as wands and staves
Craft Constant Item - constant items (ring of protecction), items that last until turned off (ring of invisibility), or at will items w/charges per day or a time limit (boots of haste)
Craft Single Use item - potions or single use magic dusts
Scribe Scroll - spell completion single use items, such as a scroll.
Director of Game Design
|
Interesting ideas,
I think that we will be modifying some of the prerequisites for some of the items mentioned in this thread (ring of protection for example), so please make sure to bring this topic back up when we get to magic items.
As for feats, I do like the idea of combining some of the classifications together, but perhaps not to the degree mentioned here. I need to give this some more thought. Fortunately, feats are coming up relatively soon.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
|
|
Interesting ideas,
I think that we will be modifying some of the prerequisites for some of the items mentioned in this thread (ring of protection for example), so please make sure to bring this topic back up when we get to magic items.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Whoo-Hoo!
Do I get cover credit?
LOL
|
|
Interesting. I like the concept, but I think the feats need to be boiled down a little more. Are you saying that a sword +1 would require 5 feats? That seems onerous.
That being said, I like what you're pushing towards and think it's a marked improvement from the current regime.
Yeah, lose Craft Caster-Only Item; that can be the default wording on all the feats, until you learn how to make your items 'idiot-proof' via Craft General-User Item'. This can be visualised by adding buttons/switches/icons to press, or the item being semi-sentient, and reading the user's intent.
(Eg: Ring of Feather Falling: command word "F#~$ing Hell, I'm falling!")Some of those feats would be freebies, i.e. Wizards already have Scribe Scroll, so they'd get Craft Minor Item at Level 1, with which they would be limited to one-use, caster-only items (ie scrolls and one-shot wands), until they took another feat, just as before.
So the sword+1 would be 4 feats, unless they did the job on the cheap, and made a 5/day item, or a 50-charge item, etc.
Fantasy literature is full of wizardly mentors giving magical gifts to the warrior hero, with the caveat "Use this wisely, magic is a precious thing, respect the Cosmic Balance, it will only work for noble ends...etc", which is wizard-PC meta-game speak, for "I haven't got the feats/time/gold/patience to make you more than a charged item, so don't fart it all away on the mooks!".
Throwing my 2 copper in, I also noticed the 'problem' with wizards being unable to create their own rings of protection. Wizards also do not have Use Magic Device as a class skill, so it's a little harder for them to use that as a workaround. I also noticed, on a related matter, that Wizards are also incapable of animating objects, a little trick that I used to see all the time in fantasy movies (the wizard making a broom to clean up his house, or the wizard who created an army of empty plate armor suits to defend it). For the most part, Clerics are the only ones capable of making Golems or other smei-sentient animated constructs that don't involve dead bodies. In Pathfinder, that seems a little odd considering that in Magnimar, there is a place known as the Golemworks that is chock-full of mages, but no mention of the hordes of clerics required to animate all the items the mages are cranking out.
Well, with the beta crafting rules, not having the spell on your spell list simply means a craft DC of 5 higher, so wizards can create rings of protection, clerics can craft rings of wizardry, etc.
Right, things are pretty well set now as far as prerequisites go.
Again, I was working with my wizard and I realised I couldn't craft several of the rings or other items I wanted to becuase I couldn't meet the spell requirements.
Sure he can. Possible ways:
Buy scrolls of the spell in question, 1 per day of casting. Be sure to have some ranks in Use Magic Device.
Hire an NPC (or cajole the PC) cleric to cast the spells.
Take the Master Craftsman feat.
Well, with the beta crafting rules, not having the spell on your spell list simply means a craft DC of 5 higher, so wizards can create rings of protection, clerics can craft rings of wizardry, etc.
Where are the beta crafting rules? I looked in the Beta release and the Beta web enhancement (Both pdf), coulnd't find them for some reason.
|
Well, with the beta crafting rules, not having the spell on your spell list simply means a craft DC of 5 higher, so wizards can create rings of protection, clerics can craft rings of wizardry, etc.Where are the beta crafting rules? I looked in the Beta release and the Beta web enhancement (Both pdf), coulnd't find them for some reason.
There is a Beta magic items enhancement - check your downloads again
Well, with the beta crafting rules, not having the spell on your spell list simply means a craft DC of 5 higher, so wizards can create rings of protection, clerics can craft rings of wizardry, etc.Where are the beta crafting rules? I looked in the Beta release and the Beta web enhancement (Both pdf), coulnd't find them for some reason.There is a Beta magic items enhancement - check your downloads again
Just checked all 65 pages of the beta web enhancement for spells and magic items--did not find any rules regarding creating magic items. I would like the page number and book, if possible, for the rule that says the crafting check is 5 greater if you do not have the spell in your spell book. I have a character in a PFRPG game that just acquired an item creation feat, and need to have that for refereence.
Just checked all 65 pages of the beta web enhancement for spells and magic items--did not find any rules regarding creating magic items. I would like the page number and book, if possible, for the rule that says the crafting check is 5 greater if you do not have the spell in your spell book. I have a character in a PFRPG game that just acquired an item creation feat, and need to have that for refereence.
Click "My Downloads", and at the top, about the 4th "paragraph" probably, is probably:
The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Beta Playtest Edition Magic Items web enhancement is a free download: 1 MB zip PDFor .
Bottom paragraph of page 18.
CLoud of Confusion clears up. I have the web enhancement for the Beta Rules playtest, which has spells and magic items. Not the same as the Magic Items web enhancement, which I did not have. Thank you.
CLoud of Confusion clears up. I have the web enhancement for the Beta Rules playtest, which has spells and magic items. Not the same as the Magic Items web enhancement, which I did not have. Thank you.
What it doesn't seem to cover is do you need to actually be the caster level of the item to create the item? Can I create a Pearl of Power at level 3 if I'm just that crazy enough to try?
CLoud of Confusion clears up. I have the web enhancement for the Beta Rules playtest, which has spells and magic items. Not the same as the Magic Items web enhancement, which I did not have. Thank you.What it doesn't seem to cover is do you need to actually be the caster level of the item to create the item? Can I create a Pearl of Power at level 3 if I'm just that crazy enough to try?
Yep - probably get a cursed one, or just fail, but you can try.
Note some items have specific prerequisites of "Caster must be X Level" - Ioun Stones for instance. That would be at least an additional +5 for missing pre-req - no telling how the final rules will work on those (they may remove the prereq, they may not allow overcoming it, or they may make it a higher modifier).
|
While we're on the subject of magic item creation, this would be a great opportunity to rethink the feats required.
As it stands, a caster can take one feat to make a scroll, a different feat to make a potion, a third feat to make a wand, a fourth feat to make a ring, etc.
Or, he can take one feat, and make any item he likes, in any body slot, charged, permanent, uses per day, class-specific or general, which works like any of the above, via Craft Wondrous Item.
Gloves of Magic Missiles; spell-trigger item, point your finger, fire 50 shots then crumble.
How is that not a wand?Voodoo Doll; spell-completion item, arcane caster only, provokes AoO. Pull it out, stick a pin in it, acts as finger of death.
How is that not a scroll?This trend only got worse in the Magic Item Compendium, which is full of ways to sidestep using the correct feats, not to mention, pre-requisites which are just plain wrong.
(Who needs Quicken Spell, to make an item of spell-quickening? s long as you have access to the Freedom of Movement spell, which is famous for granting this ability! Errr...no.)Let's have feats that allow the creation of items based on their specifications;
Create Minor Item, leading to
Create Medium Item, leading to
Create Major ItemCreate Charged Item, leading to
Create Daily Use Item, leading to
Create Permanent ItemCreate Caster-Only Item, leading to
Create General-User Item, etcThus, the typical Sword +1 is a Minor, Permanent, General User Item.
A scroll of Disintegrate is a Medium, Charged, Caster-Only Item, etcThen, to become a dedicated crafter requries a few feats,, not just the one you buy at level 3.
Thoughts?
It will never happen... makes too much sense...
Maybe in Pathfinder 2E that will happen...
How about having the caracter buy the scroll he need for the item creation and use it with the use magic devise skill?That seem resonable to me.
Except scrolls are spell-completion items, requiring you to have that spell on your character's spell list.
Item creation takes days. And you have to cast the spells in question at least once per day. Meaning multiple scrolls. Meaning multiple chances to fail that skill check, so even more scrolls are needed.
It's not very cost effective, but if you have a high enough skill, and a high enough CHA, this might work.
Or, just hire the guy who is going to make all those scrolls for you and pay him the same money to bop over to your workshop every day on his lunch hour and cast it directly for you. Saves you the point in UMD, and saves you worrying about your CHA, and saves you the cost to buy extra scrolls to hedge against your skill failures.