I think that clerics should get 4 skill ranks per level.
Director of Game Design
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Right at the moment, I am pretty confident that the number of skill points each class receives is fixed. Although I appreciate the thought and I understand the motivation behind it, I do not think we need to have the same thread repeated over and over, replacing one class for the next as the playtest goes on.
As always though, I am open to thoughts.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Any possibility of getting a poll set up, so that you could gage who the community feels about it?
I may be wrong, but I believe that more are for increasing the minimum skills per level up to 4, than are opposed.
Handy hint, Mistwalker - when stating an opinion that is contrary to accepted policy, it is generally expected that you state why you feel such.
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Director of Game Design
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Any possibility of getting a poll set up, so that you could gage who the community feels about it?
I may be wrong, but I believe that more are for increasing the minimum skills per level up to 4, than are opposed.
Not really. I am afraid this is not a democracy. Although I understand the reasons for this request, it falls outside of some of my design guidelines right now. I am still considering it, but a public poll will not alter those thoughts much.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Handy hint, Mistwalker - when stating an opinion that is contrary to accepted policy, it is generally expected that you state why you feel such.
Sorry about that. This has been an ongoing discussion for a while now, with fighter done in the last few weeks. I do believe that Jason was suggesting that we don't need to revisit the same discussion for fighter, cleric and wizard.
I feel that 2 skills per level just does not allow enough variety in what a cleric can do. As most will be casting spells in battle, they take spellcraft. And most will also take knowledge religion. It makes them a bit cookie cutter.
I have houseruled years ago that all core classes have a minimum of 4 skill points per level. I have not seen any adverse consequences. The opposite, with characters taking on skills to advance their character concepts and not to enhance their character's combat capability.
Example, on character maxed out their cooking skill. They did all the cooking for the party, the party spend a fair bit of gold on spices and such.
Any possibility of getting a poll set up, so that you could gage who the community feels about it?
I may be wrong, but I believe that more are for increasing the minimum skills per level up to 4, than are opposed.
Not really. I am afraid this is not a democracy. Although I understand the reasons for this request, it falls outside of some of my design guidelines right now. I am still considering it, but a public poll will not alter those thoughts much.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Wasn't trying to suggest it was a democracy, just trying to provide a feel for what the public feels about it.
Any chance of you providing a hint as to what you would need to see to consider changing the minimums?
I agree. I just helped one of my players make a fighter for a new game, and with the human bonus, and favored bonus, ends up with 5 skill rank/level. Seems to be enough. If you want more skill ranks, just boost Int. Otherwise just houserule the extras.
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I think that's what having a higher intelligence ability score is for - to give more skill points, and I'm just fine with that.
Hmmm... I'm personally strongly in favor of giving all the classes at least 4 skill points, and I don't really see too many clerics having a high INT score in PF -- especially if you're using point-buy, and if you also consider that Half-Orcs and Dwarves are the two "ideal" races for a cleric.
I'd be interested to hear why Jason is so set against giving 4 skill points to all the classes -- in my opinion it certainly wouldn't be a massive change in terms of backwards compatibility, and it seems that many would in fact welcome this change.
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Director of Game Design
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Hi there all,
The reasons for the skill point cap right at the moment are manifold. The biggest of them has to due with conversion.
As we are going through this process, I am attempting to keep the amount of conversion needed for each class as low as possible while still meeting my design goals. As such, the Fighter, Cleric, Sorcerer and Wizard (all of which receive 2 skill points) each have a relatively high conversion load at the moment (from new fighter class abilities, domains, schools, and bloodlines). Adding skill points to the mix increases this load (which is currently very light for these classes due to the general low number of class skills that have been consolidated for these classes).
I am not saying that the amount of work is too high or impossible, but it does add another burden.
In addition to this, adding skill points to these classes diminishes the advantages of some of the other classes, a price I am not yet willing to impose on the other classes.
Finally, there are a host of ways to get additional skill points now built into the game (favored class, which is about to become a bit easier to exploit, being a human, and Int bonuses).
There are a few other, lesser, issues built in here (having to do with pclass requirements, existing product standards, and NPC construction) that are also staying my hand at the moment. I appreciate the thoughts on this one, and trust me when I say that I have been mulling this issue for a long time. It is hard for me to gauge opinion on this one, especially considering it is like asking "who wants some free candy" (nearly everyone is going to say yes), which forces me to take other factors more heavily in mind.
Anyway.. those are my thoughts on the issue. I am going to move on to other topics for a bit.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Jason i would begrateful if you could read this, even if to say no
i do understand what you say, but already, at least with the consolidated skill list the ones who got more benefits by having more skill points get even more benefits, while you leave the 5 classes with little posibilities of personalization in this area, in other thread you mention as giving class skills depending on the domains the cleric takes... but what use is this... if they have no skill points to put in there?
if the issue is that for benefit this 4 classes you fear to punish the rest... then push the bar up... in my campaigns to solve this i gave every class 2 extra skill points per level (and the rogue still complains he needs more skill points)
in other parts we have talked that this game is for enlightened worls were peopel havefurther posibilities of learning (one discussion about literacy in golarion, ok this is design level, but it comes to mind) but its not shown in the possibilities of leraning for characters
the avarage intelligence is 10, that mean most of this classes would get 2 skills (3 if its their favored class), that means if its a cleric it goes with Knowledge: religion (which is almost mandatory as part of the profession) and maybe Heal, and leaves no option or little option to even being able to learn your class skills... or if you do, you will be hard pressed to maximize any of them.
its sad to seesome classes are barely useful outside combat (fighter)
some say that the cleric has anything to be a party leader... or be the face of the group, but this is only if he decides to forego any other options...
my half-elven cleric with 14 in intelligence was due to concept an "eclesiastic investigator" having ranks in diplomacy, sense motive, heal, spellcraft (we were using Alpha rules where you used spellcraft to cast spells)... until we found that Favored Class gave us 1 extra skill in Beta, that meant in 2nd level i was able to get Knowledge: Religion
of course as cleric my character has little constitution, foregoing it to have enough intelligence to be able to meet the created concept
Clerics are suposed to be knowledgeable, they are based on the templars (i know that was 2nd edition) who know how to ride, how to heal, about religion, knew more than oen language, were educated, and knew how to fight... the skills of today's cleric chose little of this...
and yes i know they can do a lot of this using magic... but why spend the power of their gods in thigns they should be able to do?
for example i think the fighter is a wonderful class, and looks pretty cool... in combat... but for a rolplaying need i would be hard pressed to take it... while you can get it a lot of concpets... very few are useful outside combat... i myself prefered to use the ranger just for th 4 extra skill points... when i know perfectly well that half its "abilites" are not what i need... just favored enemy... the fighter would have let me do most of my concept... but it woudl have been crippled and hard pressed to get the skills needed to the concept i need to play with
i know your choices are hard for the changes already done, that you want to keep backward compatibility... but while having new benefits as classes grown in levels... there is also the need of realization that some knowledge gives the player, and one of thebest way to personalize and complement characters are skills...
please don't give the back to this concept looking at it as free candy, when its something this classes really need
If you want to play a cleric with more skill points, use a cloistered cleric.
at least with the consolidated skill list the ones who got more benefits by having more skill points get even more benefits
So, rather than adding more skill points, maybe we really need is some more consolidation in the class skills for fighters, sorcerers, and clerics. That would alleviate the skill point concerns for them while re-valueing the other skills, vis-a-vis Perception.
I want to say that I am opposed to raising skill points gained per level for just about any class including the Fighter and the Cleric. Because those of us who don't want more skill points (or more hit points for that matter) are satisfied, we are generally quite on the matter.
Bumping the 2/level skill point progressions to 4/level would:
1) Add another tiny bit to power creep (not much, but it adds up with the other bits)
2) Diminish in relative terms the advantages of those classes for whom skill points are more important features of their class
3) Make conversion more difficult
That said, to reach some form of compromise, I would be open to a slightly different solution:
Instead of bumping all skill points up to 4/level, it would be better to give a number of bonus skill points at level 1 (this might then have to be applied to all classes though). As such, the players can use these to flesh out their character concept, but it does not alter the entire progression. Optionally, we could evenrestrict the spending of these skill points to backround skills, such as Profession, Perform and Craft. Regarding the precise number of such skill points - I would say 6 should suffice.
The above is not necessary, the classes are fine the way they are, but it is better than giving these classes a blanket 4 skill points per level. The classes are not restricted to two skills only - nobody is forcing them to max out their skills - they can spread skill points around if they wish.
I think that 2 skill points is honestly ok. With just a 12 int and favored class, you can easily be getting 4 skill points per level.
Beyond that, a headband of vast intelligence/ mental superiority can give you up to 3 more skills maxed out.
If you don't need a skill maxed then picking up skill focus (desired skill) can be a decent enough substitue for ranks. Heal might be a good candidate for this.
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I think that 2 skill points is honestly ok. With just a 12 int and favored class, you can easily be getting 4 skill points per level.
Beyond that, a headband of vast intelligence/ mental superiority can give you up to 3 more skills maxed out.
If you don't need a skill maxed then picking up skill focus (desired skill) can be a decent enough substitue for ranks. Heal might be a good candidate for this.
for all of the above? how many ofyou sue the classes that only have 2 skill points... and how many are just defending their "classes with skills nich"?
yes... magic items sole things... i hate the absurd notion of depending on magic items to solve every little lack in the system... either as a player or GM
yes... an elf, half elf, or elf will give +1 skill, using favored class it would give 2...what happens with those the other races?(i never use them, i just care for sake of congruency)
yes... a better consolidation of skill directed THIS classes would be nice... except in half the cases it would benefit even more the classes already benefit by this consolidation, and it would arrive tothe point of makingreally ridiculous mixing (yeah... i am talking about the thievery skill from 4.0)
ok background skills would work decently... it gives a bit morecolor to thecleric... still it sticks it with the idea of having "spellcraft, heal, and knowledge: religion" as backbone, still giving little option to move
clerics of creator goddess have the responsability to craft, clerics of shelyn to perform or craft things of beauty... by concept the cleric is one of the more knowledgeable classes... as is the wizard, the fighter should beable to use tactics... instead of just "bullrush forward and care for nothing" itsthe tactical warrior... or should be.
in other threads weare talking about the lacks of the cleric as a class... and the fact that 2 skill points cripples the classes for most things outside combat
giving every class 2extra skills... yes pushes abit the power creep, but is something more logical and easier toget backward compatibility, than half the changes
I repeat. If you want to have a cleric who is skilled, you should give up some ability in a different area for it. The cloistered cleric variant gives extra skill points, in exchange for a lower BAB. Just like the Pathfinder variant cleric that gets fighter hitdice and BAB, but loses domain powers, the class is modifiable, but to preserve balance, there has to be a trade.
If you really, really, really want to get extra skill points, make it a house rule, and all is solved, but don't make demands of the core game.
Skills are already consolidated. Before, there were seperate concentration and spellcraft checks. Now there are bonus skill points for favoured class. Spending one rank on a class skill gets four points, and that makes it easier to skill dip.
Skills are the schtick of a few of the classes. They are a reason to pick one class over another. The cleric teeters on the edge of balance anyway, to make people want to play the healer. Don't kill the rogue and take his stuff too....
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I repeat. If you want to have a cleric who is skilled, you should give up some ability in a different area for it. The cloistered cleric variant gives extra skill points, in exchange for a lower BAB. Just like the Pathfinder variant cleric that gets fighter hitdice and BAB, but loses domain powers, the class is modifiable, but to preserve balance, there has to be a trade.
If you really, really, really want to get extra skill points, make it a house rule, and all is solved, but don't make demands of the core game.
Skills are already consolidated. Before, there were seperate concentration and spellcraft checks. Now there are bonus skill points for favoured class. Spending one rank on a class skill gets four points, and that makes it easier to skill dip.
Skills are the schtick of a few of the classes. They are a reason to pick one class over another. The cleric teeters on the edge of balance anyway, to make people want to play the healer. Don't kill the rogue and take his stuff too....
the rogue begans with 8 skills... when i do one i get up to 11 skills easily... explain me how isthis taking his toy....considering sneak attack, trap finding, evasion and the other abilities it has? as i say how much is about balance andhow much defending a niche? (my second favorite class is rogue)
actually is what i do... i push up skills for everyone as a GM, andusually i am able to convince other DM, right now we areplaytesting, if not i would have asked the same, 50% the DM would agree with me. if ti goes into rules it will go into home rules, still i try to reason why they are necesary, but don'tcome complainingbecause you feel threatened
"cloistered cleric" while interesting is nothing but a NPC... why would sucha cleric leave his monastery?
holy warrior is already a variant in pathfidner campaign setting without making to much changes... i agree its aceptable... one of my players doesn't agree (it steps to much in the already steped paladin's shoes)
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I think that 2 skill points is honestly ok. With just a 12 int and favored class, you can easily be getting 4 skill points per level.
Beyond that, a headband of vast intelligence/ mental superiority can give you up to 3 more skills maxed out.
If you don't need a skill maxed then picking up skill focus (desired skill) can be a decent enough substitue for ranks. Heal might be a good candidate for this.
err... Unless i've missed a big change somewhere, magic items don't allow you to get extra skill ranks
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As a compromise to ease of conversion and the complaint that cleric's don't get enough skill points, why not have each religion have a skill tied to their faith. This skill is treated as a class skill and has ranks equal to their cleric level, similar to the bard's bardic knowledge ability. In addition, clerics may make Knowledge(religion) checks untrained at any DC for questions pertaining to their faith, but no other.
What do you guys think?
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As a compromise to ease of conversion and the complaint that cleric's don't get enough skill points, why not have each religion have a skill tied to their faith. This skill is treated as a class skill and has ranks equal to their cleric level, similar to the bard's bardic knowledge ability. In addition, clerics may make Knowledge(religion) checks untrained at any DC for questions pertaining to their faith, but no other.
What do you guys think?
See the thread on Domains and skills further down :-)
In addition, clerics may make Knowledge(religion) checks untrained at any DC for questions pertaining to their faith, but no other.
What do you guys think?
I think it's not necessary. Most DMs assume the players know about their own faith. Knowledge (Religion) rolls are generally regarding obscure knowledge or Undead. Any DM who makes their player roll a K(rel) to know their religion's holy days deserves to be shot.
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See the thread on Domains and skills further down :-)As a compromise to ease of conversion and the complaint that cleric's don't get enough skill points, why not have each religion have a skill tied to their faith. This skill is treated as a class skill and has ranks equal to their cleric level, similar to the bard's bardic knowledge ability. In addition, clerics may make Knowledge(religion) checks untrained at any DC for questions pertaining to their faith, but no other.
What do you guys think?
i agreee, ad yes we are disussing it there, a compromise would be to do what you say... useless would be to mark them just as class skill... the cleric has no points to put in them anyway.
I think it's not necessary. Most DMs assume the players know about their own faith. Knowledge (Religion) rolls are generally regarding obscure knowledge or Undead. Any DM who makes their player roll a K(rel) to know their religion's holy days deserves to be shot.In addition, clerics may make Knowledge(religion) checks untrained at any DC for questions pertaining to their faith, but no other.
What do you guys think?
actually the description also means about basic things about religion, of course at least for their own religion i would suppose the cleric has not the need to roll... other religion obscure of not requiere a roll...
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My only real problem with clerics, fighters, etc. getting only 2 skill points/level is if the character has an Int penalty I've made far too many fighters who have Int 8 and only 1 skill... would it be possible to say that all classes/monsters get X skill points/level + Int bonus? Then I wouldn't mind the fact that some classes only get 2 skill points.
EDIT: Alternatively, going more the 4E route and having one or two automatic skills for each class might be good... for example, clerics could get Knowledge (religion) OR Spellcraft automatically, regardless of Int score or normal skill points.
i would really really hate the 4E route, ok it takles the more commonly used skill... but it forces them on you :S
i want the freedom to believe I CHOOSE them
Ya skills should be bumped. No class should only have 2 skills while other classes that fill similar roles get at lest 4.
I vote for leaving at 2 skill points. Clerics are super strong, and don't need the boost.
I agree, Fighters maybe, but not Clerics.
If you want more skill points, put more points into Int at character creation. You choose how to cut up your Bab/skills/spells pie.
err... Unless i've missed a big change somewhere, magic items don't allow you to get extra skill ranks
You've missed it (don't feel bad, I had, too). Read the descriptions in the Beta.
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Hi there all,
The reasons for the skill point cap right at the moment are manifold. The biggest of them has to due with conversion.
As we are going through this process, I am attempting to keep the amount of conversion needed for each class as low as possible while still meeting my design goals. As such, the Fighter, Cleric, Sorcerer and Wizard (all of which receive 2 skill points) each have a relatively high conversion load at the moment (from new fighter class abilities, domains, schools, and bloodlines). Adding skill points to the mix increases this load (which is currently very light for these classes due to the general low number of class skills that have been consolidated for these classes).
I am not saying that the amount of work is too high or impossible, but it does add another burden.
In addition to this, adding skill points to these classes diminishes the advantages of some of the other classes, a price I am not yet willing to impose on the other classes.
Finally, there are a host of ways to get additional skill points now built into the game (favored class, which is about to become a bit easier to exploit, being a human, and Int bonuses).
There are a few other, lesser, issues built in here (having to do with pclass requirements, existing product standards, and NPC construction) that are also staying my hand at the moment. I appreciate the thoughts on this one, and trust me when I say that I have been mulling this issue for a long time. It is hard for me to gauge opinion on this one, especially considering it is like asking "who wants some free candy" (nearly everyone is going to say yes), which forces me to take other factors more heavily in mind.
Anyway.. those are my thoughts on the issue. I am going to move on to other topics for a bit.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Although I do not agree with all your reasons, I surely can understand the logic behind them. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this with us, Jason! You're doing a great job, and in the scope of things, this really is a minor issue in the end. :)