Cleric: Domains with skills.


Classes: Cleric, Druid, and Paladin

The Exchange

Ok I thought I'd bring up this idea, Clerics tend to lack knowledges in certain areas that they should otherwise have e.g. The follower of a nature god doesn't get knowledge(Nature) and the skill points don't really allow for cross classing to get the skill.

Here's a possible solution give clerics free skill ranks in skills associated with their domains like the bard gets under his bardic knowledge ability.

So a cleric with nature and trickery for example could get free ranks in Knowledge(nature) and Bluff, Charm would get free ranks in Diplomacy etc,

I wouldn't go so far as to make them class skills at this point but it should fill that hole in what a particular religions capabilities are.

So what do people think.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Interesting idea. I think the easier road on this is to make some skills class skills, but you are right about the skill point issue making this less viable.

What do folks think?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


To make it simple, you can also give a +2 aptitude bonus to the skill associated with the domain.
Or even push it into a Skill Focus.


Id have to go with just making them class skills. That really makes sense to me. As you said a cleric of a "nature" god should have Knowledge (nature) but it should also be a class skill.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I like the idea of them being class skills.

But I also think that clerics should get 4 skill ranks per level.

The Exchange

Right Jason has already said once that he doesn't want to increase the skill points per level in the Fighter discussions, to an extent this proposal is a way around that giving clerics 4 skill points a level just 2 of them are pre determined by your clerical studies.

As for making them class skills not doing so saves on but they already have that skill in their skill list issue though your milage may vary on how much of an issue you think this is.


WannabeIndy wrote:
Ok I thought I'd bring up this idea, Clerics tend to lack knowledges in certain areas that they should otherwise have e.g. The follower of a nature god doesn't get knowledge(Nature) and the skill points don't really allow for cross classing to get the skill.

Cross-class skills no longer cost 2 points for 1 rank, it's just 1 for 1 now. However, with only 2+Int skills per level, i can see the trouble. I personally say make it a class skill, and up the points for the cleric to 4+int.

Edit: Jeez, ninjas everywhere

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I would like to see clerics get some sort of skill bonus for appropriate skills based on their domains, but I wouldn't want it to be as much as a free skill rank per level like the bard knowledge bonus. If this were adopted, it would make clerics as good as the classes for which those skills were considered key. I don't think that a cleric with the trickery domain for instance should automatically be as good as a rogue or bard who maxed it out, or a cleric with the animal domain should be for free as good as a druid or ranger at knowledge (nature).

However, a boost to represent that they are more knowledgeable on these skills than the average person would be a good idea, either by making them class skills, or giving them a flat +2 to the skills in question. I would rather not have the bonus be the skill focus feat, since that would prevent the cleric from choosing the feat to further boost the skill, should they choose. I would also make sure that the bonus be the same type as the druid nature sense bonus, so that a cleric/druid couldn't get the benefits of both (or for that matter, a druid with the animal domain.)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think it makes the most sense to make them class skills and I would also like to see clerics get 4 skill ranks per level.

The Exchange

JoelF847 wrote:

I would like to see clerics get some sort of skill bonus for appropriate skills based on their domains, but I wouldn't want it to be as much as a free skill rank per level like the bard knowledge bonus. If this were adopted, it would make clerics as good as the classes for which those skills were considered key. I don't think that a cleric with the trickery domain for instance should automatically be as good as a rogue or bard who maxed it out, or a cleric with the animal domain should be for free as good as a druid or ranger at knowledge (nature).

However, a boost to represent that they are more knowledgeable on these skills than the average person would be a good idea, either by making them class skills, or giving them a flat +2 to the skills in question. I would rather not have the bonus be the skill focus feat, since that would prevent the cleric from choosing the feat to further boost the skill, should they choose. I would also make sure that the bonus be the same type as the druid nature sense bonus, so that a cleric/druid couldn't get the benefits of both (or for that matter, a druid with the animal domain.)

Under the original proposal the cleric wouldn't be quite as good as a class to whom the skill was considered key as it wouldn't be a class skill.

Another option of course is to use the other bit of the bardic lore ability instead giving a bonus equal to half the clerics level and the ability to use untrained, again this would be two skills determined by domain. This would roughly translate into an extra skill point per level rather than two but would retain the flavour.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

How about having the cleric considered trained in the skill (as in can use the skill without having put any skill ranks into it), and get a +2 on those skills.

Dark Archive

I like the class skill idea (which carries over from the 3.5 domains anyway, in many cases), but, combined with the Clerics tiny amount of skill points, it's probably a dead-end idea. It would be a nice nod to backwards compatibility, since the 3.5 domains do that in several instances, but c'est la vie.

The 'free ranks of that skill equal to Cleric class level' idea sounds better for a system that retains the 2 skill points / level Cleric concept. The Magic Cleric with free Knowledge (arcana) won't be as good as the Wizard with Knowledge (arcana) ranks maxed, because it's a class skill for the Wizard (and he's probably smarter), but it will still be maxed out for level, and therefore at least usable without using up half of an Int 10 Elven Clerics skill points...


Clerics should definitely get extra class skills based on domains, if for no other reason than backwards compatibility. Also, the sorcerer bloodlines, each of which give an additional class skill, set a good precedent for this.


A knowledge mechanic similar to that introduced for the PfPRG Bard might do the trick:

Allow clerics to add 1/2 their cleric level on checks for Knowledge (religion), and the Knowledge skills assigned to their 2 domains. (IMO each domain should have one such skill.) They can make such checks untrained. Then grant the cleric 1 skill point to place in a Knowledge skill at each level.

Another option would be to grant 1 skill point at each level for use in a pertinent Knowledge skill and grant the skills from each domain as class skills.

Note: Unlike the Fighter, the Cleric actually needs to have a decent Int for Spellcraft (unless this is houseruled to use Concentration, or redesigned). As such, they may not suffer from the 2 skill points per level quite as badly as the fighter.

Liberty's Edge

Mistwalker wrote:

I like the idea of them being class skills.

But I also think that clerics should get 4 skill ranks per level.

agreed

if you give class skills but you give them no more skills to put in there well... is as if you gave them nothing...

edit: but as you stated Jason you are not interested in increasing the skill points given to the class... then i agree i would give them a free rank in such class as the bard get in his "Bardic Knowledge" main Knowledge.


Well, the solutions for this ARE dancing around the Cleric's weak # of skillpoints...
Assuming that doesn't change, I think an untyped bonus equal to Cleric Level achieves a good effect.
(For PClass reasons, I think "Ranks" are limited to 1/Character Level, but an untyped bonus allows "Divine Proficiency" while still requiring Rank Investment in order to PClass)

Making the skills Class Skills was mentioned, but this solution is effectively gimped by the Cleric's low Skill Ranks...
This solution is also used elsewhere (Dwarven Greed, Sorceror Bloodlines), and in all of those, is also problematic for another reason:
If the character has the class skill from another class, there is ZERO benefit. A Rogue/Cleric of Trickery & Darkness will ALREADY have Stealth and Bluff as class skills, and the Cleric class doesn't really provide enough Skill Points to be able to invest in your "Deity's Skills" to an effective degree.

Liberty's Edge

Its a great idea that clerics with certain domains get appropriate skills linked to that domain; however just making the skill a "class skill" is not going to really make a difference. It's the easiest change and makes the most sense, yes, I agree. But it won't really make a mechanical difference most of the time. Why? Because the cleric is usually going to have about 3 skill points per level. He needs heal, spellcraft for sure, and knowledge religion would be the third skill. Not to mention that clerics are also expected to be diplomats, sense motive guys etc.

My point is, awarding them another class skill is not going to make a difference if you don't have the skill point luxury of spending them ON the class skills.

Thus, I think a more practical benefit would be a bonus to make such skills. My first thought is on top of making it a class skill, giving "Skill Focus" feat; which gives an even larger bonus once you have devoted 10 ranks to the skill. Thus it really rewards those who do dedicate points to that skill, but regardless it still helps a little to those who just can't afford to allocate skill points there.

Robert


To me giving them extra skills with a domain is a sad workaround for the fact they need more skills. If your having to use an add on method to make something work, then you need to look at why it does not work. If it lacks skill points it needs to work add them.


I am strongly in favor of making it a class skill.

Otherwise people will be double dipping:
Take levels in cleric for the skill bonus
Take a class where the skill is a class skill for the +3 class skill bonus
Then add the usual skill focus, ability score, prestige class malarkey and you've got a level 10 character with 9 different classes able to swim up waterfalls or other such nonsense.

Making it a class skill keeps things simple, backwards compatible, and minimizes potential abuse.


Maugan22 wrote:

Otherwise people will be double dipping:

Take levels in cleric for the skill bonus
Take a class where the skill is a class skill for the +3 class skill bonus
Then add the usual skill focus, ability score, prestige class malarkey and you've got a level 10 character with 9 different classes able to swim up waterfalls or other such nonsense.

OK: your 10 level character with 9 different classes isn't going to get much out of a Cleric Level Scaling ability, for one.

Taking ONE level of another Class for a +3 Class Skill bonus vs. automatically gaining +1 for increasing your Cleric Level isn't that much difference... AND they are screwing their Cleric Spell/Ability progression. If someone finds SOME advantage (or god forbid, an interesting character concept reason) to doing this, I'm all for it. Skill Focus, Ability Score... All that applies to a single class Cleric... so what?

If someone is a Cleric of Strength or "Climbing", what is the problem with them "climbing waterfalls"? It's nothing that a 2nd level spell or Domain Power shouldn't be able to accomplish. Linking it Cleric Level keeps it level-appropriate and prevents "one level dipping" exploitation. What's not to like?

Someone mentioned that providing a bonus like this is just ignoring the lack of skill points. In a way it is. But isn't it appropriate that a Cleric have good skills appropriate to their Diety's Domains? Skill Points can apply to anywhere - And a scaling Class bonus lets you get MORE than 2 Ranks/ level if you put your normal Ranks in each level. In many ways, this is like how a Ranger gets a Class Ability to scale their Survival/Tracking skill.

I hope to see this make it in: Class Skill if not already & Bonus equal to Cleric Level

Liberty's Edge

Maugan22 wrote:

I am strongly in favor of making it a class skill.

Otherwise people will be double dipping:
Take levels in cleric for the skill bonus
Take a class where the skill is a class skill for the +3 class skill bonus
Then add the usual skill focus, ability score, prestige class malarkey and you've got a level 10 character with 9 different classes able to swim up waterfalls or other such nonsense.

Making it a class skill keeps things simple, backwards compatible, and minimizes potential abuse.

That was one of the reasons my suggestion was for the Skill Focus feat - to avoid this kind of stacking nonsense.

Not that I think someone wanting to stack a bunch of bonuses to Knowledge Nature is realy that wise of a notion....

Robert

Liberty's Edge

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
To me giving them extra skills with a domain is a sad workaround for the fact they need more skills. If your having to use an add on method to make something work, then you need to look at why it does not work. If it lacks skill points it needs to work add them.

yes but Jason already said he is not interesting in giving more skill points, so we need another option to solve this... adding levels like bardic knowledge does the trick

giving them "skill focus" is just asking take 1 level of cleric and you don't need more, you already get 1 or 2 feats for free (depending character focus... i would say a cleric of a god of trickery would earn soemthing akin to "streetwise")

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Interesting idea. I think the easier road on this is to make some skills class skills, but you are right about the skill point issue making this less viable.

What do folks think?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

A lot of domains currently have powers that add skills to your class skill list. There isn't much point in putting features of the 3.5 domain system (which I firmly believe is far superior to the current domain system in PRPG) back in the PRPG. Your best bet is to reverse the whole change and retain 3.5 style domains, with domain slots per day, domain powers as is, and everything.


What if each cleric got a bonus skill (based not on domain, but on deity; eg. your god is Hermes, class skill Knowledge [local]) and on this skill you gain a bonus skill point at every odd-numbered level (so as not to overdue it, and outshine more skill-based classes such as the bard). Opinions?

Liberty's Edge

James Risner wrote:
A lot of domains currently have powers that add skills to your class skill list. There isn't much point in putting features of the 3.5 domain system (which I firmly believe is far superior to the current domain system in PRPG) back in the PRPG. Your best bet is to reverse the whole change and retain 3.5 style domains, with domain slots per day, domain powers as is, and everything.

i believe its not a superior system, just easier, i like the changes... and the domains that gave this skills as Class Skills were not all of them... in some cases it was nice as "domain benefit" in others while nice it was useless... for example trickster domain gave you a lot of rogue class skills... of course... it didn't gave you the skill points to sue them unless you neglected more "clerical skills"... of course my trickster rogue/cleric did use them...

Risner if you want to continue using the 3.5 domains its ok... do it... other of us prefer something better, hey i myself keep using some of the 3.0 spells... but that is me and my table... and i know theyare not going to use those spells :P

Jim Callaghan wrote:
What if each cleric got a bonus skill (based not on domain, but on deity; eg. your god is Hermes, class skill Knowledge [local]) and on this skill you gain a bonus skill point at every odd-numbered level (so as not to overdue it, and outshine more skill-based classes such as the bard). Opinions?

for campaign settings its ok

but since Pathfinder RPG is intended as a general game you can't tailor domains or skills around the deities... that would tie it more to the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting (which is not the idea) and would not solve the problem for people who has gods from other settings, which i suppose there are a lot out there.


I like the changes to the domain system quite well, and I would also like to see certain skills become class skill for the cleric (or more skills for Cleric and Fighter, definitely not and).

To clarify are we proposing to add certain class skills based on domain, or to add those knowledge (and/or other) skills to the skills available to all clerics?

To be counted, I prefer the former. Have each domain "come with" a skill as a class skill, thus giving each cleric two additional class skills. So a cleric of Gozreh who took Plant and Weather might have Knowledge (nature) and Survival, but a Cleric who took Animal and Air might have Handle Animal and Fly as available class skill options...

Liberty's Edge

ZeroCharisma wrote:
To be counted, I prefer the former. Have each domain "come with" a skill as a class skill, thus giving each cleric two additional class skills. So a cleric of Gozreh who took Plant and Weather might have Knowledge (nature) and Survival, but a Cleric who took Animal and Air might have Handle Animal and Fly as available class skill options...

former, but a few of us complain the cleric has not enought skill points to use in this... still it would be a nice thematic change.

mmm thinkin what happens with those domains that already give the cleric a similar knowledge? we look for another thing or we give them a bonus?

ok maybea bonus of +2 in a domain skill would be useful

maybe i am shortminded....but right now for glory i can only came with Knowledge (nobility) or diplomacy, while with Sun only Knowledge: Religion or maybe... planes?

what skill could come from domains of good and evil? while Law i can see as something about laws and goverments (kn: nnobility) i am not sure what canbe done with chaos

water can get swim

etc...


If it is to be a fixed bonus, a +3 untyped bonus is better than a Class Skill,
simply because it represent the Divine Focus of the Diety, even for multiclass characters who gain it as Class Skill elsewhere.

Otherwise, I would prefer a "+Cleric Level" bonus, possibly on top of making them class skills. I like this best, because it's assuring a 20th level Epic Cleric will be apprpriately competent in their appropriate Domains, and also compensates for the low Skill Points, while making sure the bonus points are in an area related to the Cleric's Diety, not just general combat optimizazation.

Liberty's Edge

I really like the idea of giving clerics skills based on their domain, maybe modeling it after the skill synergy mechanic in 3.5. Make it/them a class skill at first level taken, then add a skill bonus in the cleric's special column (perhaps +2 per 5 levels?). The reason I would prefer to attach it to domains rather than deities (which was my first thought) is that the domains should be OGL--I believe deities are not open gaming content.

Liberty's Edge

molrak wrote:
I really like the idea of giving clerics skills based on their domain, maybe modeling it after the skill synergy mechanic in 3.5. Make it/them a class skill at first level taken, then add a skill bonus in the cleric's special column (perhaps +2 per 5 levels?). The reason I would prefer to attach it to domains rather than deities (which was my first thought) is that the domains should be OGL--I believe deities are not open gaming content.

indeed

mmmm both ideas are interesting,well wejust have to see how itends.

Liberty's Edge

Adding a class skill per domain would be wonderful, ala the bloodline class skill for Sorcerers in the Beta. But as others have noted, most clerics I've played and played alongside don't have a lot of skills points to spread around. My first instinct was just to give a bonus when domains were declared, aka at first cleric level, sort of following the skill synergy mechanic. However, that could encourage a player to pick up cheap skill points with a single level of cleric.

Adding a domain skill bonus at levels levels 5/10/15/20 would be another incentive to keep plugging along as a cleric without breaking the game (hopefully), and it could fill "holes" in the cleric's special column at levels 5/10/15.

Liberty's Edge

molrak wrote:

Adding a class skill per domain would be wonderful, ala the bloodline class skill for Sorcerers in the Beta. But as others have noted, most clerics I've played and played alongside don't have a lot of skills points to spread around. My first instinct was just to give a bonus when domains were declared, aka at first cleric level, sort of following the skill synergy mechanic. However, that could encourage a player to pick up cheap skill points with a single level of cleric.

Adding a domain skill bonus at levels levels 5/10/15/20 would be another incentive to keep plugging along as a cleric without breaking the game (hopefully), and it could fill "holes" in the cleric's special column at levels 5/10/15.

mmm i agree this would work well


Yeah, I figured by making it a class skill there would at least be that bonus, and hey, if they are of a race where Cleric is the favored class, they could put some of those bonus skill points in there under the rules as they stand right now.

Edit: I must say I like Molrak's idea more and more each time I look at it.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

molrak wrote:

Adding a class skill per domain would be wonderful, ala the bloodline class skill for Sorcerers in the Beta. But as others have noted, most clerics I've played and played alongside don't have a lot of skills points to spread around. My first instinct was just to give a bonus when domains were declared, aka at first cleric level, sort of following the skill synergy mechanic. However, that could encourage a player to pick up cheap skill points with a single level of cleric.

Adding a domain skill bonus at levels levels 5/10/15/20 would be another incentive to keep plugging along as a cleric without breaking the game (hopefully), and it could fill "holes" in the cleric's special column at levels 5/10/15.

As long as the bonus is bonus skill ranks similar to the bard's bonus knowledge skill ranks, I think this is a good solution, or using 1/2 cleric levels as the bonus in skill ranks. I wouldn't want this to be a bonus on top of normal skill options, since then you could have a cleric who does choose to spend their skill points and max out a domain skill and become better at that skill than others. For instance, if stealth is one of the skills, it would allow a cleric to be better at it than a rogue or ranger, and I still think that the cleric shouldn't be better at these skills than a specialist in them.


...even though, by being a Divine Cleric of a God of Stealth, they ARE a specialist in Stealth...

Liberty's Edge

I was intentionally vague about how much of a bonus clerics should get, although I don't think my original suggestion was too far off: at +2 skill points per domain per 5 levels, that would equate to a total of +8 each at level 20. That seems a little heavy at first, but +16 skill points across 20 levels would equate to less than a bonus skill per level (effectively the cleric would gain 2.8 skills per level + int modifier).

As for balance issues, acrobatics, climb, disable device, escape artist, fly, ride, sleight of hand, stealth, and swim all have armor check penalties, and I don't often see many clerics in light armor, let alone no armor. Reasonably equipped 10th level clerics with domains skills affected by AC penalties would be around break even for those skills, which doesn't seem too far off to me.

Liberty's Edge

molrak wrote:

Adding a class skill per domain would be wonderful, ala the bloodline class skill for Sorcerers in the Beta. But as others have noted, most clerics I've played and played alongside don't have a lot of skills points to spread around. My first instinct was just to give a bonus when domains were declared, aka at first cleric level, sort of following the skill synergy mechanic. However, that could encourage a player to pick up cheap skill points with a single level of cleric.

Adding a domain skill bonus at levels levels 5/10/15/20 would be another incentive to keep plugging along as a cleric without breaking the game (hopefully), and it could fill "holes" in the cleric's special column at levels 5/10/15.

This also has the benefit of having the cleric losing the divine bonus if they fall out of favor with "Big Daddy". Having said that I think that they should still get a bonus at 1st level, justified as the indoctrination that they go through in order to become a cleric.

Liberty's Edge

Arda Badgerhill wrote:
This also has the benefit of having the cleric losing the divine bonus if they fall out of favor with "Big Daddy". Having said that I think that they should still get a bonus at 1st level, justified as the indoctrination that they go through in order to become a cleric.

agree

Liberty's Edge

Aside from the level 1 dipping problem with giving away skill points at that level, there are two other reasons I would not give skills so early (although I would make the new skills class skills if there were not already).

First, players with trained class skills in PfRPG add +3 to their rolls--so a cleric could effectively gain +4 to a skill by taking a single point in it. That's a lot of skill as is, without a huge investment necessary. While clerics don't have a lot of skill points to go around, I'd imagine most PCs would have at least a +1 modifier for their intelligence since spellcraft is now the concentration check. I don't think that sacrificing a few skill points early on to be proficient in one's domain skills is too much to ask.

Second, I think this new found knowledge would fit in well with how divine casters gain new spells. Basically the Beta says that divine spells at new levels are gained by undertaking a certain amount of study (pg169). It makes sense that during this divine magic study, they would also become a little more skilled in their domains. I do agree that clerics would lose these divine skill points if they venture too off their holy path.


molrak: do you then oppose the sorceror bloodline granting a class skill at 1st level?

+4 to a skill doesn't really let you accomplish much predicatably.
seriously, the biggest 1 level dip exploit is Ranger or Rogue, a Cleric getting 2 more Class Skills isn't going to change that. (if anything people will dip into Cleric for the Domain POWERS, not Skills) I think having a reason to dip into a class is GOOD. There just needs to be good reasons you want to advance in your MAIN class, that make it a tough decision.

I really don't see any problem with Cleric 1 of Nature God having Survival as Class Skill or Cleric of Shadows having Stealth. If there were a Cleric Level scaling bonus as well, that gives the best benefit to those who stay full-Cleric. Likewise, it makes perfect sense for a Cleric of Nature to be DIVINELY proficient at Survival, or a Cleric of Shadows to be DIVINELY proficient at Stealth. I might give a God of Strength both Climb & Swim as skills, but apply only half the scaling bonus to each (half Cleric Level instead of full Cleric Level).

there really needs to be a level-scaling component in addition to a Class Skill, simply because the Cleric really doesn't have any points to spare... And you'd think it would be rather EMBARASSING for their Diety if their Clerics weren't remotely competent at the basic aspects of their Domain, right? It would seem to make sense if high level (20) Clerics were EPICLY competent in relavent skills, wouldn't it?

Anyways, here's hoping something like this makes it in...

Liberty's Edge

Quandary wrote:
molrak: do you then oppose the sorceror bloodline granting a class skill at 1st level?

I don't have a problem with making class skills for bloodline skills or hypothetical domain skills at level one. Were it my decision, I would not give bonus skill points at level 1. However, I can certainly understand why it would make sense to do so, and I agree with your line of reasoning.

Regardless of its exact makeup, I hope some version of this makes it in too!


I think even a small bonus to skills can be very useful at low levels until a later scaling mechanic kicks in. It also nicely correlates to, as mentioned, the probably cloistered and highly specific seminary training of the various deities and furthermore the various "sects" within the body of a given deity's worshipers.

St. Francis of Assisi may have had a good idea of how to, say, feed and care for an animal (Handle Animal), while Mother Theresa may have had a better idea of how to minister to the sick (Heal). They are both worshipers of the same deity but have different callings within the faith.

I am sure that to some degree their training is responsible for their skill base, but their personal experience and ability made them more effective at what they chose to do.

I encourage a scaling mechanic but even without it, the options put into play by granting domain skills seems to encourage some interesting potential.

Skills are also an ability that essentially helps the whole party. They are often used to help solve puzzles or bypass non-combat challenges, and they certainly broaden the variety of options available to the gm as well as players in a host of situations.

I believe Sorcerers get a pool of bonus available skills due to their bloodlines anyway, right?


Sorcerors currently get ONE bonus "Class Skill" fixed by their Bloodline,
which if they gain it elsewhere from another Class (multiclass) provides ZERO benefit.

I would say that, given they are also in the Low Skillpoints Club (without INT as main Stat), should also recieve some sort of Level Scaling bonus to said Bloodline Skill, besides making it a Class Skill.

...Assuming some sort of solution to this, I think it'd also be reasonable to give Clerics a Specific Bonus to Know(Religion) pertaining to their own Deity. It makes sense that a Cleric should know the MOST about their own Deity and it's Allies, and this could be reflected by a +4 bonus (or Scaling?) when about their own Diety/Church/or notable Allies. Druids works like this, gaining a bonus to Know(Nature)... Why not Clerics?


Quandary wrote:

Sorcerors currently get ONE bonus "Class Skill" fixed by their Bloodline,

which if they gain it elsewhere from another Class (multiclass) provides ZERO benefit.

Of course the same could be said of a multiclassed cleric with the proposed domain skills, don't you think? I like the idea precisely because it helps obviate the desire/need for multiclassing if you have a character concept that would work better if you had skill options usually only available to other classes.

Then again there are numerous feats that grant skill bonuses, so maybe I'm putting the cart ahead of the horse.


Keep them as class skills, but list them on the Domains page.

eg
Taking the Nature Domain adds knowledge Nature to you list of class skills etc.

For those of you that want the Cleric to have 4 skill points...Hmm you guys are crazy fools!
Cleric is still Superman and doesn't need more skill points.

If you want more skill points then put more points into INT. Yes that means you will be less effective at either attacking [STR], or Soaking up damage [CON], or gaining bonus spells [WIS], or channelling positive energy [CHA]. Oh you poor things you...having to be only average at something...come on guys!

Jason has made it very clear that skill points will not be increased. Personally I think the Fighter has a better case for more Skill Points based on the fact they get a raw deal in the Skills/Spells/BAB pie, imo.

Liberty's Edge

stuart haffenden wrote:

Keep them as class skills, but list them on the Domains page.

eg
Taking the Nature Domain adds knowledge Nature to you list of class skills etc.

For those of you that want the Cleric to have 4 skill points...Hmm you guys are crazy fools!
Cleric is still Superman and doesn't need more skill points.

If you want more skill points then put more points into INT. Yes that means you will be less effective at either attacking [STR], or Soaking up damage [CON], or gaining bonus spells [WIS], or channelling positive energy [CHA]. Oh you poor things you...having to be only average at something...come on guys!

Jason has made it very clear that skill points will not be increased. Personally I think the Fighter has a better case for more Skill Points based on the fact they get a raw deal in the Skills/Spells/BAB pie, imo.

yeah

we have already commented that in this same thread :P and i think i am one of the most vocal ask in for the increase... in everyones skill points... :P

and yet... the fighter would not get also any increase in his skill points... better case or not :P

and no
clerics are no supermen... pretty good... yes
but the class by concept is supposed to be learned, at least in what matters to his or her deity... its is not shown with the number of skills (nor is the wizards even with greater intelligence, and yes i already run acleric with 14 int, 10 con, 13 str :P and still i feel i need more skill points)

but we are not beginning this again :P we have been already told no by Jason... also the fighter... so shuu don't begin the flames again, let us cry in despar while we go unheard into the night of skilless :P


ZeroCharisma wrote:
Quandary wrote:

Sorcerors currently get ONE bonus "Class Skill" fixed by their Bloodline,

which if they gain it elsewhere from another Class (multiclass) provides ZERO benefit.
Of course the same could be said of a multiclassed cleric with the proposed domain skills, don't you think?

Exactly. Which is why I'm suggesting a Level Scaling bonus for both Sorceror and Cleric to Domain/Bloodline Skills.

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