Eberron Upgrades


Ability Scores and Races

Dark Archive

Just wondering:

Has anyone given any thought to converting the eberron races (and artificier class) to the PFRPG? the main things that I feel would need converting are ability score adjustments and the artificier's XP payment system, as well as a few class abilities

Lets get started:

Warforged-mostly can stay as-is, but perhaps this might be a chance to make them slightly more balanced. they're already kind of LA +.35

so, how about this: remove the charisma penalty (thus differentiating them from dwarves, and making them unique among basic races in their wis penalty) but dont give them a mental score boost, like the half-orc got. this puts their ability scores slightly behind everyone else's, and should completely negate their near-broken status (I like warforged for flavor and RP, and personaly wish they were less broken). Favored class is either fighter or artificier

Changelings- give them +2 to any ability score, as human or half-elf. Replace speak language with linguistics, or just give 3 bonus languages of their choice. pretty solid. favored class bard or rogue

Shifters- already kind of too good. they can stay as-is, maybe remove the cha penalty (I feel it was over-used in 3.5) and/or give them a wisdom bonus. +2 Acrobatics, Climb. Favored class ranger or druid.

Kalashtar-????????????????????????. I dont do psionics

Artificier- their class reserve could just be removed whole cloth, but I feel there's some room here for improvement. they could be given some sort of at-will power like all the other caster classes have been given, but that might be off-flavor; the artificier has always been a prep-heavy batman that HAS to go into battle loaded down with gadgets and tricks. I am a proponent of removing alot of the expensive component costs from their infusions, though.

Any thoughts, advice, or opinions?

Scarab Sages

To me, I would just change Warforged to +2 to one ability score, and
-2 to one ability score. This would be because of House Cannith's ability to create 'forged based upon design.

I would also put in Body Feat: choose what type of body, instead of wasting a feat to upgrade the armor.


Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:

To me, I would just change Warforged to +2 to one ability score, and

-2 to one ability score. This would be because of House Cannith's ability to create 'forged based upon design.

I would also put in Body Feat: choose what type of body, instead of wasting a feat to upgrade the armor.

+1 for this suggestion!


This is what I did

changling : add a +2 to one stat
Kalashtar: add a +2 to one mental stat
Shifter:change to +2 dex +2 wis -2 cha
Warforged: +2 con +2 int -2 cha

Some people will not like it many threw fits over the warforged Int mod but that brings it in line with PF standard and they do learn damned fast them first few months, this may be wisdom instead couldn't make up my mind.
I would prob make the Kalashtar just a +2 to INT now


I'd be more in favor of leaving Warforged stats as they are, and get rid of that Darnable healing penalty. That more than anything I've seen has discouraged people from picking the class. No mages want to burn spells to do it, and clerics (or wands) get burnt from both ends of the candle doin' it.

-S


Artificer- ah forgot about that well that's easy craft reserve is the number x5 in GP you can do without. Does the same thing just in a different way


Warforged are already powerful enough (easily LA 0.5), without losing the healing penalty as well. They're possibly fine as is in a PF campaign.


eh I don't see how there too powerful, they cant heal, cant wear armor without a feat and such ... eh no worse then elves or a dwarf.


Well, if you ignore their immunity to hunger, thirst or sleep, there is still their 25% immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks and all their living construct immunities too.


Half healing doesn't hurt the Warforged, it damages the party.

A party who takes one (i.e. the group that lets a player play one- not that a consensus is needed) has a huge burden. "core" ish races shouldn't be that way. If you want to penalize a race for being too powerful the penalize the race- not the people that race chooses to group with.

A minority opinion, I realize.. but my opinion regardless.

-S


eh elves are immun to sleep gain
Low-Light Vision: Elves can see twice as far as humans
in conditions of poor illumination.

Keen Senses: Elves receive a +2 bonus on sight- and
sound-based Perception checks. They can make a
Perception check to spot a secret or concealed door if they
pass within 10 feet, regardless of whether or not they are
actively looking.

Elven Immunities: Elves are immune to magic sleep
effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against
enchantment spells or effects.

Elven Magic: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on caster
level checks made to overcome spell resistance. In addition,
elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Appraise skill checks
made to identify the properties of magic items.

Weapon Familiarity: Elves are prof icient with
longbows (including composite longbows), longswords,
rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows),
and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name
as a martial weapon
with no cons

warforged get
• Composite Plating: The plating used to build a
warforged provides a +2 armor bonus. This plating
is not natural armor and does not stack with other
effects that give an armor bonus (other than natural
armor). This composite plating occupies the same
space on the body as a suit of armor or a robe, and
thus a warforged cannot wear armor or magic robes.
Warforged can be enchanted just as armor can be.
The character must be present for the entire time it
takes to enchant him.
Composite plating also provides a warforged
with a 5% arcane spell failure chance, similar to
the penalty for wearing light armor. Any class ability
that allows a warforged to ignore the arcane spell
failure chance for light armor lets him ignore this
penalty as well.

Light Fortification (Ex): When a critical hit or sneak
attack is scored on a warforged, there is a 25% chance
that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and
damage is instead rolled normally.

• A warforged has a natural weapon in the form of a
slam attack that deals 1d4 points of damage.

and this
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease,
nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause
the sickened condition, and energy drain.

but cant heal cant wear armor without a feat I don't see the issue

if your running a heavy poison,dying of thirst hunger game ya warforged have an advantage but so does a dwarf underground


on the point of them healing as they are 80% live wood with some stone and metal plating I think they should be able to heal somewhat myself


It's only a technicality, but Elves are not immune to sleep poisons or to fatigue or exhaustion.

What about a Warforged artificer? Now he's not harming the party, as he can heal himself, and what's more, can keep on building all night long, with boredom or outside influences being his only check.


Also the light fortification is worth less In PF as sneak attack still works. All races have there good and bad points warforged are diffident not better and not really too worse then most races


Well, it's worthless if you believe it's coming from being a construct. If it's still the magical ability, it should still function.


Well as they do not have most organs and such that most folks have yeah its from there construct nature.


My PFRPG Eberron versions:

Warforged: +2 Con -2 Cha; favored classes Artificer of Fighter; change natural Light Fortification in order to work only with critical hits and not with Sneak Attack, since "full" Constructs are not immune to sneak anymore (in order to have REAL Light Fortification, they have to enhance their armor with a magical bonus)

Changeling: +2 Intelligence, since they are really adept in blending in almost all environments; I was undecided if giving them the +2 in a chosen ability score that Humans and Half-Elves have, but I decided for a fixed ability instead. Favored classes Bard or Rogue.

Shifter: +2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom; favored classes Druid or Ranger.

Kalashtar: +2 Charisma. I know that almost none of their abilities are Charisma-based, but honestly, they are otherworldy, beautiful and slightly manga-style, so I thought Charisma was perfect. But I was really undecided between Charisma and Wisdom... Favored classes Monk or Psion.

As for the Artificer, after a long debate on this forums, I decided to: 1)get rid of their Craft Reserve feature (useless in PFRPG, since there is no more xp cost for crafting magic items), as well as Retain Essence (for the same reason); get rid also the Artificer bonus feats they got every 4 levels (since they still maintain their bonus Item Creation feats, and seriously, giving them a total of 10+ bonus Feats was like making a Fighter...);
2)rework on their Metamagic Spell Trigger and Metamagic Spell Completion features, making them swift action (in order to avoid "happy trigger" abuse, like an aforementioned 126d6 combo at 12th level with a couple of Wands of Scorching Ray and a huge feat optimization...) that cannot use a Metamagic feat on an item that has been already built with a metamagic spell inside, even if you are currently utilizing a different Metamagic feat than that of the item (same as above); the Still Spell feat still confers no benefit when applied to an item, and the Quicken Spell feat cannot be used, since the artificer has already spent his swift action to utilize the Metamagic Spell Trigger/Completion ability in the first place.
3)add them the Artefice Domain powers and bonus spells, like a Cleric of the same level;
4)change their HDs to d8.

Now I am working on the Eberron Cleric Domain; I'm about 90% done (but some 1st and 8th Powers are still blank... Commerce 8th ??? It was a real pain giving them the 1st level power already...)

PS: I love Eberron !

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jodah wrote:
Has anyone given any thought to converting the eberron races (and artificier class) to the PFRPG?

Sort of. I've converted my APL 11 Eberron group to PFRPG. You can find my notes on the conversion in the Playtest section. But only "sort of" because I didn't change things like ability adjustments retroactively.

I agree that warforged in 3.5 are slightly too strong. But maybe the solution is just to leave them alone? the other races got a boost, after all.

Jodah wrote:
Favored class is either fighter or artificier

I think it actually adds to warforgeds (what an odd plural) flavor to leave their favored class alone at just fighter. Warforged artificers are already crazy powerful ... giving them the favored class boost will not help.

Jodah wrote:
Changelings- give them +2 to any ability score, as human or half-elf. Replace speak language with linguistics, or just give 3 bonus languages of their choice. pretty solid. favored class bard or rogue

Bard? Well, I guess you have to pick something, and bard's as good as anything else. It doesn't feel right for changelings, but then neither do any of the other core classes.

Jodah wrote:
Shifters- already kind of too good. they can stay as-is, maybe remove the cha penalty (I feel it was over-used in 3.5) and/or give them a wisdom bonus. +2 Acrobatics, Climb. Favored class ranger or druid.

Wisdom bonus is good, but Charisma penalty is deserved. I'd prefer favored classes to be ranger or barbarian, personally, but druid's okay. (BTW, I had no balance issues with the shifter in my game.)

Jodah wrote:
Kalashtar-? I dont do psionics

Well, they're barely psionic. I don't do psionics either, so the kalashtar's player and I just worked out a telepathic bond spell-like ability. As for PFizing them, I'd say +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, favored classes of monk or sorcerer (if not using psionics, psion otherwise), and allow one use of telepathic bond per day, limited to a single other target, per level (or, of course, if using psionics just use mindlink).

Jodah wrote:
Artificier- their class reserve could just be removed whole cloth, but I feel there's some room here for improvement.

First, yes, if PFRPG doesn't change the item creation rules to sub in some cost for what used to be XP, you'll just remove Craft Reserve and replace it with something else. (In my game, XP costs have been changed to GP cost at a 5-to-1 ratio, just like for spells, and Craft Reserve can be used to pay that cost (at a 1-to-5 ratio, so it balances).)

Second, artificers are a very strong class, and they get stronger with every extra spell of 4th-level or lower that you allow into the game. If you want to give them at-will abilities, you need to balance that by saying spell storing item can only be used with core spells and those from specifically Eberron sources. The warforged artificer in my game can do seemingly anything (to the point that it's now an ongoing joke at the table), because I didn't realize how strong this class was without a limit on that single infusion.

IMO, the artificer doesn't need anything extra, at least not before 12th level or so. (I'll have more to say once I see what happens when the artificer can't easily mimic every other spell available to every other spellcasting class.)


For the Warforged why not just declare that they must use the point buy system and give them an extra 4 points to spend? This would reflect the customized nature of the Warforged as they were created.


Ryan Fontana wrote:
For the Warforged why not just declare that they must use the point buy system and give them an extra 4 points to spend? This would reflect the customized nature of the Warforged as they were created.

ugh point buy=evil.

I myself like to keep them within the PF standard that means +2,+2.-2

con is a +2 and cha a -2 easy enuff I debate on int or wis being +2 but in the end i went with INT since artificer would easily be there 2nd class

As for other models of warforged another poster brought that up and I reworked it pretty easy to ya had 2 base models giveing up the light fort for other things . ]

I see em like sub races and they should be treated like subraces I think


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
I myself like to keep them within the PF standard that means +2,+2.-2

To me the PF standard isn't +2,+2,-2 but +2 in addition to their existing stat mods.

For my planned campaign I modified the races as follows:

Changlings - +2 Cha, favored Rogue or Bard
Goblin - removed Str penalty added fighter as alt favored
(+2 Dex, -2 Cha; Favored: Fighter or Rogue)
Gnome - added Artificer to favored
Hobgoblin - dropped Cha penalty and removed +1 LA
(+2 Dex, +2 Con; Favored: Fighter)
Kalashtar - +2 Wis, favored Psion, Soulknife or Monk
Kobold - changed Str penalty to only -2 and added rogue as alt favored
(-2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con; Favored: Rogue or Sorcerer)
Orc - removed Wis penalty and added druid as alt favored
(+4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha; Favored: Barbarian or Druid)
Shifter - removed Int penalty and added druid as alt favored
(+2 Dex, -2 Cha; Favored: Druid or Ranger)
Warforged - added +2 Str
(+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha; Favored: Fighter)
Warforged Scout - removed Str penalty and added fighter as alt favored
(+2 Dex, -2 Wis, -2 Cha; Favored: Fighter or Rogue)

Haven't figured out all the kinks to modifying the artificer just yet.


I will point to the 3.5 half orc +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.

PF half orc +2 str,+2 wis-2 cha

as you can see they done away with the more then one -2.

Having two mantel stats as -2 is one of the flawed area of 3e as they think one good stat is worth 2 bad ones

Now I thought about a warforged being +2str,+2 con-2cha...but thats too much I went with the +2 to con cause of a warforged eailry fast learning ability, and the fact that an artificer is made for the race.


Jodah wrote:

....

Artificer- their class reserve could just be removed whole cloth, but I feel there's some room here for improvement. they could be given some sort of at-will power like all the other caster classes have been given, but that might be off-flavor; the artificier has always been a prep-heavy batman that HAS to go into battle loaded down with gadgets and tricks. I am a proponent of removing alot of the expensive component costs from their infusions, though.

Any thoughts, advice, or opinions?

I created a new class feature called an Artificer Cantrip Wand which can only hold cantrip(ie zero level spells). The wand requires a standard action to infuse and it only holds a number of charges equal to artificer class level. The charges only last for a number of rounds equal to artificer class level. This ability can be used an unlimited number of times per day and the artificer can infuse the wand with any cantrip.

This seems to fit the idea that the artificer must infuse into a item and not just directly cast a spell. Plus while more flexible than other casters they have to spend more actions infusing the wand in the first place.

So far this ability has provided a unique flavor for the Artificer at lower levels. The ability has some good combat uses and it also has some fun out of combat abilities also.

If interested here is my full writeup.

Spoiler:

Artificer Cantrip Wand: Artificers can infuse a special kind of wand known as an artificer cantrip wand. The infusion process requires a standard action that completely fills the wand with a number of charges equal to your artificer level. This ability can be used an unlimited number of times per day. Each time the wand is infused it can hold any single arcane or divine cantrip from the groups allowed books. A wand can be charged and used over and over again as the wand does not burn out or become useless after its charges have been used up. This is different from a normal wand. Once the wand is charged only the artificer that charged the wand can activate it. As the artificer cantrip wand is an infused item use magic device skill can not be used on it.
  • Wand Activation: Unless the infused spell needs a longer casting time, the wand can be activated as a standard action. Each activation uses up one charge. The spells cast by the wand are at the same caster level(CL) as the artificer that infused the wand.
  • Wand Charges: The wand holds a number of charges equal to your artificer class level. These charges are held for a number of rounds equal to your artificer class level before the wand loses all charges. An artificer can only have one wand charged per 5 artificer levels at any given time (ie 2 at level 5, 3 at level 10, 4 at level 15, and 5 at level 20).
  • Wand Creation/Material: An artificer cantrip wand can be made out of the same material as normal magical wands or more expensive and durable materials. The only requirement is it has a minimum material cost of 20gp worth of material. The wand can be crafted by anyone with at least one level of the artificer class. Many artificers craft their own wands, but others occasionally purchase them. Whether the wand is crafted or purchased, the minimum cost is 20gp for an artificer cantrip wand.
  • Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Roleplaying Game / Design Forums / Ability Scores and Races / Eberron Upgrades All Messageboards
    Recent threads in Ability Scores and Races