It looks like PF/Golarion is making common an uncommon language. The Taldans are the only humans that speak it? Do you need a 12+Int to take common if your a different kind of human?
Actually, it's the Chelaxians who really speak it. Taldans only use some of the words - everything you need to complain that things used to be better back in the day and to boast about how great your own empire is and all that. It also has only past tense, because Taldor's a used-to-be-country!
;-)
The languages mentioned in the racial and ethnic write-ups are the native languages people speak. Common is in addition to all that, especially for player characters (it's always possible that some commoners don't speak common despite the common name - just as there are orcs and goblins out there who only speak orc or goblin).
Taldor (and Cheliax) happens to be the Nation that provides Golarion's Lingua Franca (or at least that of the Inner Sea Reigon), so they don't have a language of their own - kinda like UK/US in our world.
Note that in Taldor, Common is known as Taldane, and as Chelaxian in Cheliax.
Thanks , we were kinda floundering here. We almost had a party that couldnt speak to each other because of late ethnicity choices. Now it wont be an issue.
I don't know, I like not having a common in FR I use chordathen as common with you having to spend points to speak a non native lang.
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I've never liked the idea of 'Common' as a language.
I don't mind that there is a language in common usage, just that it should be an actual language of the setting, with a proper name, and that some people would know it, some would not.
Latin was the official language of the Roman Empire, but how many Germanic tribesmen would speak it? Maybe the chief, and his advisors, so he could negotiate with his new overlords, the rest of the tribe may know some simple terms, insults and slang.
Even today, with instant global communication, we don't yet have a universal language.
I also don't like how a character gains instant fluency with a language in the space of a few days, and can speak it like a native. I can appreciate the gamist reasons for keeping things simple, but it is a stretch.
Also, do you ever notice how there's little reason to learn any of the civilised demi-human languages? If you want to speak to a dwarf or elf, you know he'll speak Common. The most useful languages to pick are those of uncivilised monsters. The speech you would actually be exposed to on a daily basis usually gets passed over, for the gnashing and grunting of creatures few people will have ever met (and survived).
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Well I don’t particularly like the idea of “common” . I agree that “common” should be a particular language. I think that it would be a simple matter to house rule that every character gets a “home” regional language for free. The elves dwarves gnomes and Halflings can count their racial language as their “home regional language”.
There was an interesting article in Kobald Quarterly #4 concerning languages on page 50. The author mentioned that most people for whom English is a second language, prefer to speak in their native language even if they can speak English. There were lots of other interesting tidbits.
On the subject of elves dwarves etc, perhaps the elves understand common, but they simply choose not to speak it. :)
My table has long since houseruled that "Common" doesn't exist in our settings.
We do allow for a "trade" language, which is only good for asking directions and barter (currency and all the commodities have words, and there is some verbiage for transactions). For anything else, you need to speak the language.
Any creature that can speak a language and has traveled speaks the trade tongue. Isolated areas don't necessarily speak it.
In my campaign there is no common tongue and no trade language. It is just countries with their own languages. It actually pays off to spend skill points in languages, because then you become the interpreter and negotiator for the group.
In Golarion the Common is actually Taldane or Chalaxian (same language). These descend from Azlantl (basically, Atlantean).
The problem is this is somebodies native language , which everyone else gets for free. I was considering giving these two cultures bonus to Linguistics when it comes to deciphering the "root" language of Azlantl(supposedly the predominant script in ancient ruins across the setting) to balance out everyone elses' "bonus" free language.
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I don't know, I like not having a common in FR I use chordathen as common with you having to spend points to speak a non native lang.
From what I remember, 'common' does exist in the realms, but it is a pidgin trade-tongue, not suitable for complex ideas or exact expression. I've always made the players speak suitably when using it "You trade sword for gold?" etc. Common can be a flavourful part of a setting when used in that way.
I've also refused to allow players to take a new language when levelling up unless they have shown some in-game effort towards learning it since their last level.
Also in my games, for non-human races it's the human languages like Chondathan that are the pidgin trade-tongues for them. They can get by with them, but if you need to make friends or discuss anything complex then you need to learn their tongues.
Remember that the core books are setting neutral, so there is no better name for Common than 'Common'.
In Golarion, 'Common' is Taldane (or Chelish, depending on who exactly you ask.) It is a real language, with a real place in the setting, spoken in the (known) world the same was English is (and French was) on Earth.
This doesn't mean it's a flat language either. Taldor, Chelisax, and Andoran all speak Taldane natively, but America, Britan, and Australia all speak English. Now, I can certain understand Canadians, Aussies, Brits, and Kiwis, but I don't speak in exactly the same manner. Add in the that all the Continential Europeans, South Africans, Indians, Japanese, etc. who learn English as a useful second language. They might not speak it perfectly, but we'd be able to speak. That is the role of Common/Taldane.
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I use "common" and will continue to do so.
Common is not a language usually called Common, any more than most countries use gold pieces called Gold Piece. In the world and here on these boards we frequently see "common" being used. It is called English, currently. If you travel around the world you will not find everyone speaks English, but you find more people that do than any other language.
In Golarion, "Common" would be known as Taldor.
In ancient Rome, Latin was the official language. The barbarian Germans did not speak it often, because they were not part of the Empire. Though you were more likely to find a German who spoke Latin, than one who spoke Egyptian, Arabic, of Hindi. Throughout the Empire Latin was more common, even if the native langauge was Celtic. In fact Latin became so common it replaced many local languages and created the Romance languages we have today.
A Trade Language is really no different in concept than Common. People are learning a different language from their native one, one that is "universally" known, in which to communicate basic needs. It makes no sense that a Trade language would exist in which you could negotiate the complexities of a trade deal, but cannot say "Hi, how is the wife and kids?" So, in essence you have just renamed Common to Trade, instead of giving it an in game name.
It is just like coinage. A kingdom will have coins called Crowns or Regals or Royals or Eagles or whatever. In the game we call them Gold Pieces for simplicity.
And as for native speakers of common being jipped and needing an extra language, consider that most Romans spoke Latin and few spoke barbaric languages (barbarism in latin meant foreign), most French at its height only spoke French. Most Americans (anglos et al) spoke English. If native speakers of common want another language they should take it like any other skill, OR have a reason why they would get a free second language (such as recent family immigration- the PC is 2nd generation Osirion having moved to Taldor- because really no one moves to Cheliax- everyone is trying to get out of that Hell Hole).
I've been having this debate as well: should characters get their regional language as a bonus language, FR style?
No. They should get it as an automatic language.
Creative Director
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Yeah... "Common" and "Taldane" are the same language. It's a bit of verisimilitude that MAYBE gets a bit in the way of clear game rules, alas. BUT: Rest assured it's not an "Uncommon" language. It may be named after the human ethnicity that invented it, but every PC gets the language for free (unless they want to be difficult). And pretty much every NPC in the game speaks it, but in adventures we have been and will continue to call it Common.
Going forward in reprints of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting Hardcover, it might be worth it to just drop the word "Taldane" entirely to prevent this confusion...
Since most creatures use common anyway, I think the total number of languages available in the DnD setting should be drastically reduced.
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Going forward in reprints of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting Hardcover, it might be worth it to just drop the word "Taldane" entirely to prevent this confusion...
Noooooo! Anything you print that's specific to Golarion, use the Golarion specific terms! If you MUST, add an appendix with entries like "Taldane = Common" and "Oni = Ogre Mage" Catering to people who can't glean information from context is the road to... financial success, but makes cappa very sad!
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Common should merely be a pidjin language...used for common function, but frowned upon by the locals...you can get a room and food, but don't expect to talk to the local historians or philosophers about their subjects and understand anything...
I am just curious, but why should Common essentially be gestures and body language? You said it should be this way. I am curious what you are drawing that conclusion from.
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Creative Director
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The whole point of Common, of course, isn't to model anything that's even remotely historically accurate, but to give the game itself something that lets it work. If everyone in the party speaks different languages and can't communicate, and if they can't communicate with the GM and the majority of the other characters... the game grinds to a halt. It's like watching a foreign movie without subtitles. Can be fun... but everyone who watches the movie that way comes away with a different idea of the story. Which isn't what the game's about.
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All PCs should automatically know Common.That's what I meant, but do they also automatically know Common?I've been having this debate as well: should characters get their regional language as a bonus language, FR style?No. They should get it as an automatic language.
I get the feeling we are talking in circles. :)
For example, does a Varisian PC automatically know both Common and Varisian, regardless of Intelligence or race?
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For example, does a Varisian PC automatically know both Common and Varisian, regardless of Intelligence or race?Yes. That means that a few ethnicities (notably Taldor and Chelaxian) get "robbed" and start with fewer automatic languages, but that's okay.
Thanks, James. Now to modify my Varisian Half-Orc Druid!
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All PCs should automatically know Common.That's what I meant, but do they also automatically know Common?I've been having this debate as well: should characters get their regional language as a bonus language, FR style?No. They should get it as an automatic language.I get the feeling we are talking in circles. :)
For example, does a Varisian PC automatically know both Common and Varisian, regardless of Intelligence or race?
Yes. Every single player character in the game gets Common.
Every single player character in the game also gets their native language.
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Have you ever been to a different country and tried to speak English to the natives, who only understand a tiny bit of English and you only understand a tiny bit of their language?
that is correct. I go to Bali and that person is not close to fluent in English. However I turn to the boss who understands me and we both speak English and we struggle with accents and idioms but we work through it. The other just nods and does what the boss says. If that first person had put a rank into Common, we could have communicated well enough.
Out of curiosity have you been to a foreign country and run into someone who understands English? Let's say I go to Germany instead of Bali. What are the odds of finding someone that also speaks English?
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Have you ever been to a different country and tried to speak English to the natives, who only understand a tiny bit of English and you only understand a tiny bit of their language?that is correct. I go to Bali and that person is not close to fluent in English. However I turn to the boss who understands me and we both speak English and we struggle with accents and idioms but we work through it. The other just nods and does what the boss says. If that first person had put a rank into Common, we could have communicated well enough.
Out of curiosity have you been to a foreign country and run into someone who understands English? Let's say I go to Germany instead of Bali. What are the odds of finding someone that also speaks English?
Pretty good, I would think. All Germans now study English in school.
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Pretty good, I would think. All Germans now study English in school.Have you ever been to a different country and tried to speak English to the natives, who only understand a tiny bit of English and you only understand a tiny bit of their language?that is correct. I go to Bali and that person is not close to fluent in English. However I turn to the boss who understands me and we both speak English and we struggle with accents and idioms but we work through it. The other just nods and does what the boss says. If that first person had put a rank into Common, we could have communicated well enough.
Out of curiosity have you been to a foreign country and run into someone who understands English? Let's say I go to Germany instead of Bali. What are the odds of finding someone that also speaks English?
They put a rank in Common :)
And that makes me sad when I then consider our own backward 19th century agrarian scheduled 20th century industrial teaching schools that are being left behind in the 21st century information age. *sigh*
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Going forward in reprints of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting Hardcover, it might be worth it to just drop the word "Taldane" entirely to prevent this confusion...
I rather you didn't drop it, or at least keep it within the description of "Common" in the language section. I quite like the way it is currently (then again, I was never confused on the issue).
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Thanks, James. Now to modify my Varisian Half-Orc Druid!For example, does a Varisian PC automatically know both Common and Varisian, regardless of Intelligence or race?Yes. That means that a few ethnicities (notably Taldor and Chelaxian) get "robbed" and start with fewer automatic languages, but that's okay.
Whoa! I think that there may still be some confusion here. I think that you guys are talking about two different Varisians. Varisian can mean someone from the Varisian ethnic group or someone from the region of Varisia. So which group gets the free language? Answer: the ethnic group. Most of the citizens of Magnimar, Korvosa, Sandpoint, etc. are ethnic Chelaxians and would not get Varisian as a free language. So, your half-orc druid shouldn't get Varisian as a free language. (Unless you can convince your GM to give it to you on the basis that your human side is Varisian.) So, my point is that being from Varisia doesn't automatically give you the Varisian language for free-- you must be of Varisian descent. (If I am wrong, please correct me!)
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Yes. That means that a few ethnicities (notably Taldor and Chelaxian) get "robbed" and start with fewer automatic languages, but that's okay.
Bummer, but probably pretty realistic. [arrogance]When everyone speaks your language, why learn theirs?[/arrogance]
Ex (common joke at English-speaking foreign high schools): What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages? Trilingual. Some who speaks two languages? Bilingual. Some who only speaks one language? American.
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It's like watching a foreign movie without subtitles. Can be fun... but everyone who watches the movie that way comes away with a different idea of the story. Which isn't what the game's about.
Well from a real world historical perspective, the problem may be overrated.
Let's take a look at the crusades : people coming from France, England, Germany to fight with Middle Eastern muslims and Byzantine Greeks .... Plus the fact that every single region had its own tongue inside the nation, often very different from the one of their neighbors...
And they all managed to understand each other somewhat. because they learned a minimum of the local language, and they were not trying to have a lengthy theological debate. (For that the priests had Latin and Greek).
From experience, nothing makes you learn the language faster than being immersed in a foreign country for a while.
IIRC, common is usually supposed to be a Trades tongue, but maybe, it is not even necessary in the first place.
Just my two cents anyways.
All Germans now study English in school.
I'm not quite sure about that. I think there's still instances where you can choose something else and never get English as a subject. I'm not quite sure about this, though.
Anyway, this is a fairly recent development: A lot of people of, say 25 and up, still don't know the language at all, and maybe some younger ones, too.
Of course, my experience is mainly form the French occupation zone, I'd guess that a lot of people in the American zone have picked up the language from soldiers and their families.
Still, your chances of finding people who can speak English here aren't bad. And with a bit of luck, you even find someone who is passably fluent.
IIRC, common is usually supposed to be a Trades tongue, but maybe, it is not even necessary in the first place.
But until the system allows for varying degrees of how fluent you are in a language, you either have to give players the language or reach an understanding about communication within the party.
And roleplaying it won't hurt, either - if the players want to do that. It can be tiresome to remember only to use easy words. If the players don't want that, or if you're not roleplaying it at all, you might as well have Common as a language and be done with it.
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Noooooo! Anything you print that's specific to Golarion, use the Golarion specific terms! If you MUST, add an appendix with entries like "Taldane = Common" and "Oni = Ogre Mage" Catering to people who can't glean information from context is the road to... financial success, but makes cappa very sad!
Going forward in reprints of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting Hardcover, it might be worth it to just drop the word "Taldane" entirely to prevent this confusion...
i agre with Cappa
no dropping Taldane!!!
no dropping Taldane!!!
we like Golarion because its complex and beautiful, we don't want symplsitic 70's movies world where everyone understood english in every part of the galaxy or the world... that is boring
in the Pathfinder RPG is okbecause its "generic" but in the Campaign Setting it should not be changed... you will be killing part of the worlds flavor.. (if just a tiny bit)
i for one found that abhorrent (ok i already have my Campaign Setting, but this will mark a tendency i don't care to see)
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side note
JRR Tolkein, was fluent in 11 languages and laid done the roots of which were to become the basis of 9 fanciful fantasy languages in his series of books and letters. Lunguists and other accademics have actually had classes on these languages at a few Universities in both the UK and here.
'Common' was one of them.
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one question to come to mind...
why habe so many interesting and beautiful languages and dialects like Varisian, Kelishian, etc if anyway everyone knows common and you don't need to elarn any other language except those of monsters?
The thing with "Everyone speaks common"... I've always figured that wasn't the case. Sure PCs get it for free, but that's just because it would be really inconvenient if they didn't, plus if you're intending to go out adventuring it's always best to know the "Middle ground" language, just so you get by. Obviously people like aristocrats will also know it as they've had an education, travelling merchants and sailors will again learn it to get by when they're away from their home country, the average merchant in anything larger than a mid-size town that doesn't will at least know enough to communicate price and information about his wares. Merchants in small towns, the average commoner or expert in a practical profession? I'd say they mostly speak whatever's native to their country, they'll probably know a little common if they're not somewhere ridiculously secluded, but it'll be mostly be a pidgin and not great for communicating complex or abstract concepts.
There's also a matter of respect, you're far more likely to respect a visitor who can speak (or at least attempts to speak) your native tongue than one that starts making demands in common and assuming that everyone who doesn't understand is stupid. Speak the native language and locals are far more likely to give you information, merchants are far more likely to give you a fair price for their wares (an example of the latter, when I played Silken Caravan at Gen Con UK everyone in the marketplace was trying to con the party and making snide comments in Kelish, until our Osirian ranger who had picked up Kelish as a bonus language chatted to them; though he mostly agreed with them that the Ulfen were fools at least :P).
At the end of the day, common exists because whilst roleplaying language differences can be fun in the short-term, it can get tedious really fast if it comes up constantly.
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The thing with "Everyone speaks common"... I've always figured that wasn't the case. Sure PCs get it for free, but that's just because it would be really inconvenient if they didn't, plus if you're intending to go out adventuring it's always best to know the "Middle ground" language, just so you get by. Obviously people like aristocrats will also know it as they've had an education, travelling merchants and sailors will again learn it to get by when they're away from their home country, the average merchant in anything larger than a mid-size town that doesn't will at least know enough to communicate price and information about his wares. Merchants in small towns, the average commoner or expert in a practical profession? I'd say they mostly speak whatever's native to their country, they'll probably know a little common if they're not somewhere ridiculously secluded, but it'll be mostly be a pidgin and not great for communicating complex or abstract concepts.
Illesa i would agree... and you are right sometimes its tiring and frustrating to be in another place and not understand a language... ask any tourist who wants to communicate and the locals doesn't even try to speak his language (English in France for example, and a few years ago, and still sometimes Spanish in a lot of parts in US), but as ypu put, its gets boring fats... that is why i like the idea that linguistics gives 1 free labnguage per rank... except for the 5 classes with very little skills (which i complain and ramble about every so often) no one has any reasonable pretext to not get a 2nd language onc ein a while...
and about "everybody speaks common"... i complain because we were already told so *wink and points toward James Jacobs*
Yeah... "Common" and "Taldane" are the same language. It's a bit of verisimilitude that MAYBE gets a bit in the way of clear game rules, alas. BUT: Rest assured it's not an "Uncommon" language. It may be named after the human ethnicity that invented it, but every PC gets the language for free (unless they want to be difficult). And pretty much every NPC in the game speaks it, but in adventures we have been and will continue to call it Common.
Going forward in reprints of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting Hardcover, it might be worth it to just drop the word "Taldane" entirely to prevent this confusion...