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With the changes to the fighter class, specifically adding Bravery and Weapon and Armor Training, the poor fighter class has seen some renewed interest as a choice by my players. Obviously, the class has no drastic changes, so the playtests haven’t revealed any flaws or inbalances.
Weapon Training groups fail to mention the starknife and the elven curve blade.
Weapon training was used extensively in our game, with a ranged weapon. It was enough to give a fighter a boost in damage and bonuses to hit, but not so much it overshadowed any other feat or ability.
Our fighter in the playtest only continued to 6th level or so, becoming bored with the class, so we didn’t stress-test the class at higher levels. Our playtest fighter also wore light armor, and the Armor Training compensated for a low AC.
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Instead of just Bonus Feats, might it be an idea to get fighting styles for the fighter? Every x levels he can choose another style and take bonus feats from them. It would give the class some direction, which at the moment is one of the limiting factors. The fighter, unlike the other classes doesn't have a hook.
This idea could be enhanced by taking some ideas from e book of Experimental Might II. Fighters getting a slight bonus to their feats when they're from their style and some feats that can only be taken as part of the weapon style. If a fighter chooses not to take additional stays, he should get a bonus associated with his chosen style. Details are obviously a little sketchy.
It would also have to make sure you don't tread on the Ranger's toes too much.
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Instead of just Bonus Feats, might it be an idea to get fighting styles for the fighter? Every x levels he can choose another style and take bonus feats from them. It would give the class some direction, which at the moment is one of the limiting factors. The fighter, unlike the other classes doesn't have a hook.I think that one of the great things about fighters is that there aren't specific fighting styles that they need to choose from. You can make any warrior-type character you want with the fighter as it is... a two-handed damage-dealer, a two-weapon fighter, ranged fighter, mounted fighter, reach weapon/spiked chain wielder, unarmed combatant, etc. Making combat styles for the fighter would hurt that flexibility. And besides, it wouldn't be backwards-compatible if you had to rework your fighter characters' feat selection to match a newly pre-made feat list.
True. Altering the thinking, the weapon styles could be to provide a bonus if a fighter follows them, much as the Monk Combat styles do. Thus nothing stops a fighter taking feats outside his style, but he gains the most benefit when he follows it.
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True. Altering the thinking, the weapon styles could be to provide a bonus if a fighter follows them, much as the Monk Combat styles do. Thus nothing stops a fighter taking feats outside his style, but he gains the most benefit when he follows it.I think that that would be a great alternative!
Precisely! It would be alot like the fighter talent trees that I came up with and posted some months ago. It doesn't pidgeon-hole the fighter and force them to select a talent or style of combat on that tree - but they were options lieu of his bonus feats for those who did want to excel in a specific arch-type build.
Robert
Director of Game Design
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Personally, I like fighters being able to follow whatever path suits them as their character develops. It is different from the ranger, who must make a choice and stick with it. The fighter gets more versatility overall, being able to focus in on multiple fighting styles and techniques.
That, and it keeps them relatively simple, which is something I think is one of the classes' strong points.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Personally, I like fighters being able to follow whatever path suits them as their character develops. It is different from the ranger, who must make a choice and stick with it. The fighter gets more versatility overall, being able to focus in on multiple fighting styles and techniques.
That, and it keeps them relatively simple, which is something I think is one of the classes' strong points.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Jason,
I was thinking of something more like the Monk Combat Paths than the Ranger Styles (poor choice of wording). A selection of three or four feats that if you select them all, you get a bonus, rather than "At level 2 you get a choice of these feats". Something to make the Fighter a master of his feats, similar to the stuff in Book of Experimental Might II, if I remember it correctly.|
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"Weapon Training: At 5th level you may choose a weapon group from the list below. You may apply any weapon specific feat that you know for a weapon in this group to any other weapon in this group. You also gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage with every weapon in this group. Every 4 levels beyond 5th you may select an additional weapon group. The weapons in this group are added to the weapons in the original group, any weapon specific feat that you know for one of them you may use with all of them. The bonus to attack and damage also increases by an additional 1 for each 4 levels over 5th that you have."That is a substantial boost to the fighter, because they can use a single weapon feat for a large number of weapons, something no other class can do. It makes trading out inappropriate gear much less painful, because you can...
This is a fabulous idea!!! I too have experienced that same mentality from players - that once they spend all their feat for a specific weapon to be their cat's meow, you may as well pawn everything else off.
I think that Tarkis is spot-on with his observations and ideas for helping it!
Robert
I've long been thinking about something like the weapon qualities from Warhammer Fantasy RPG.
Basically, different weapons have different special traits (but in WHFRPG only for exceptional quality versions of hand weapons).
Obviously, just copying the system wouldn't work due to differences in systems, but I recall swords having "parry", axes having "high impact", spears having "first strike", etc.
What one could do, for instance, is giving fighters a special bonus based on what weapon they are using
Sword: +2 to CMB with or against disarm
Spear: +2 to hit with AoO caused by moving within spear fighter's threatened area.
Axe/Pick: +1 to hit against armoured opponents (an axe or pick concentrates A LOT of power on a very small striking surface, thus easier causing damage against people in armor.Just thoughts, and they might have to be changed a bit, but something like that...
I like the possiblities of this, however, I feel that these would be granted by Weapon Focus...they would be able to be increased with Weapon Specaalization , Greater WF, Greater Weapon Focus, etc...
Adding the ability for a whip to cause lethal damage or to choke an opponent with specialization. The possibilities with this are endless...
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Personally, I like fighters being able to follow whatever path suits them as their character develops. It is different from the ranger, who must make a choice and stick with it. The fighter gets more versatility overall, being able to focus in on multiple fighting styles and techniques.In the interest of versatility, I think the fighter should get the same weapon training bonus on all weapon groups he has selected with weapon training (instead of an incremental +5/+4/+3/+2/+1). Since the fighter can only wield two weapons at a time, I don't think it would be terribly overpowered to say that a fighter trained in two weapon groups gets a +2 with all those weapons, a fighter trained with three weapons gets a +3, etc. And it would prevent the fighter from getting locked into a choice he made at low levels.
I think I have to agree with Eric on this one. Also take that line of thought to Ranger Favored Enemies.
"Weapon Training: At 5th level you may choose a weapon group from the list below. You may apply any weapon specific feat that you know for a weapon in this group to any other weapon in this group. You also gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage with every weapon in this group. Every 4 levels beyond 5th you may select an additional weapon group. The weapons in this group are added to the weapons in the original group, any weapon specific feat that you know for one of them you may use with all of them. The bonus to attack and damage also increases by an additional 1 for each 4 levels over 5th that you have."
I am also a strong advocate for changing weapon training to this. In fact, I would like weapon training to replace the weapon focus/specialization feats altogether. Perhaps keep Weapon Focus, but get rid of Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization.
I'm all for a more versatile fighter and perhaps a fluid Weapon Focus ability. More individual and exciting fighters all the way!
"Weapon Training: At 5th level you may choose a weapon group from the list below. You may apply any weapon specific feat that you know for a weapon in this group to any other weapon in this group. You also gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage with every weapon in this group. Every 4 levels beyond 5th you may select an additional weapon group. The weapons in this group are added to the weapons in the original group, any weapon specific feat that you know for one of them you may use with all of them. The bonus to attack and damage also increases by an additional 1 for each 4 levels over 5th that you have."
This is a nice change and I like that alot
In the interest of versatility, I think the fighter should get the same weapon training bonus on all weapon groups he has selected with weapon training (instead of an incremental +5/+4/+3/+2/+1). Since the fighter can only wield two weapons at a time, I don't think it would be terribly overpowered to say that a fighter trained in two weapon groups gets a +2 with all those weapons, a fighter trained with three weapons gets a +3, etc. And it would prevent the fighter from getting locked into a choice he made at low levels.
This is also a good ideal
A few other points
* Armor training should count to a shield and armor both
* Weapon training should add to CMB with weapons
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Quick question for you Jason. I have looked on the boards for an answer but all I have found are folks suggesting the wording be changed.I noticed that the Bravery ability that fighters aquire at 2nd has no descriptor so does that mean it would stack with a morale based bonuses? Or should it be considered a morale bonus and therefore not stack with other morale bonuses? I don't mean to sound like a rules lawyer but with the wording as written in the Beta it should stack with a morale bonus like the one provided say by a Bard or Paladin. I may have missed the clarification somewhere on the boards but I am not finding it thus far.
"Weapon Training: At 5th level you may choose a weapon group from the list below. You may apply any weapon specific feat that you know for a weapon in this group to any other weapon in this group. You also gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage with every weapon in this group. Every 4 levels beyond 5th you may select an additional weapon group. The weapons in this group are added to the weapons in the original group, any weapon specific feat that you know for one of them you may use with all of them. The bonus to attack and damage also increases by an additional 1 for each 4 levels over 5th that you have."I am also a strong advocate for changing weapon training to this. In fact, I would like weapon training to replace the weapon focus/specialization feats altogether. Perhaps keep Weapon Focus, but get rid of Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization.
I too think this form of 'weapon training' is a great idea. I would keep the feats but get rid of all fighter specific feats- fighters will get enough of a boost with weapon training.
I absolutely hate armor training- it gives fighters far too high an AC. The bonus they get over 20 levels is twice as much as a monk gets. I would be happy with the armor check penalty being reduced, at a stretch gain DR but dont increase AC fighters (and other mithril full plate armor wearers) already get to much AC in my experience