Sebastian:
If you want my input on any 4E storylines, I have confidence that you can find me without posting on these forums.To everyone else:
I have reached the point of exhaustion with trying to be reasonable in these debates; I do not get the impression that if I cease to make them that my posts will be missed on this forum.
In cases of personal/national emergency (unlikely) I may be back but otherwise, goodbye.** spoiler omitted **
Did I miss something?
Actually, it's advertising -- which is why the principles of professionalism to which I alluded apply.
Advertising? It's a WotC cartoon on a WotC site. It's humorous content. It did not show up on another site or on TV - that would have been an ad.
No, it's advertising. Everything on their site is intended to promote their products (though sometimes indirectly). That's advertising.
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I would say that I don't care what you cook your onions in or how you do it since I'm not eating at the same table, but I would take a dim view of a kitchen supply company that sells sauce pans under the label saucier. My disapproval is directed at WotC. Personally, I don't care if you use the Toon rules to play D&D. That's your prerogative.
In other words if you use 4e to play D&D then you are playing D&D wrong.
So you use an objective comparison as an analogy for an subjective opinion?
Sorry dude - you lost me.
3e is D&D AND 4e is D&D
Yeah, the cartoon was a promotional tool and thus an ad.
That said, add me to the chorus of people who find "4e is not D&D" to be mildly insulting (or majorly, depending on who is saying it and how). What I don't have a problem with is people stating "4e is not a type of D&D that I'm interested in playing," or something similar.
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Actually, it's advertising -- which is why the principles of professionalism to which I alluded apply.Advertising? It's a WotC cartoon on a WotC site. It's humorous content. It did not show up on another site or on TV - that would have been an ad.No, it's advertising. Everything on their site is intended to promote their products (though sometimes indirectly). That's advertising.
Ok. Using that definition this board and the content for each and every post is an ad for Paizo? I mean WotC has boards on their site and everything on their site is advertising.
Advertising has specific forms - that cartoon does not fit the bill.
Urgh.. this thread still lurches along. I think I will borrow a leaf from Charles and just close up the 4E section. There will never be a meeting of the minds, and people are always spoiling for a fight about this subject. Meh. I've got better things to do ... farewell my argumentative friends!
Actually, with that last post, I think I'll join Sebastian. There doesn't seem to be any benefit to be had reading or contributing to many of the 4e threads.
While we have only a few real trolls, their insistent need to prove others wrong is so insistent and disruptive that it repeatedly poisons the conversation.
The problems are on both sides. In particular:
- some people have become so pointlessly argumentative that they will disagree with the most reasonable statements in their zeal to to promote their message
- with alarming frequency, people have responded to posts (reasonable and otherwise) with demeaning insults and personal attacks, and then have the unmitigated gall to criticize the behavior of others
Maybe I'm being melodramatic. Maybe I've been part of the problem (it's always hard to see one's own faults). In any case, I don't have anything to get from these threads except frustration.
Regards all.
Ok. Using that definition this board and the content for each and every post is an ad for Paizo? I mean WotC has boards on their site and everything on their site is advertising. Advertising has specific forms - that cartoon does not fit the bill.
Case in point :/
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Ok. Using that definition this board and the content for each and every post is an ad for Paizo? I mean WotC has boards on their site and everything on their site is advertising. Advertising has specific forms - that cartoon does not fit the bill.Case in point :/
There is nothing in my post that is a personal attack. There is nothing that in any way insults you. I was making a point, not an attack.
There is nothing in my post that is a personal attack. There is nothing that in any way insults you. I was making a point, not an attack.
Point 1 -- pointlessly argumentative. Sorry about the confusion.
So you use an objective comparison as an analogy for an subjective opinion?Sorry dude - you lost me.
3e is D&D AND 4e is D&D
At some point, based on its shape, a sauce pan becomes a saucier. The exact point where that occurs may not be objectively defined in some official cooking manufacturer code of standards. (Though for all I know, it actually might, particularly in hyperbureaucratic french cooking).
The same is true, I believe, with the pedigree of games starting with AD&D.
the purpose of the game is fulfilled by 4E, despite the difference in taste
It seems to me that the purpose of the game depends on who is playing, and what they want from it. So saying the purpose is fulfilled "despite the difference in taste" is just marginalizing anyone who doesn't want what you want.
For me, the purpose is not fulfilled. I respect that you have your own wants when you play, perhaps you might reconsider and reciprocate.
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It seems to me that the arguements about this have polarized, somewhat like our political parties. My take would be this...
Play the edition that you like. 1,2,3,3.5or 4. For most of my life I didn't have enough money to buy more than the basic books anyway.After that if I needed an adventure or rule or item, I made it up. That is the beauty of the game...you really dont need to buy any more books than the basic ones. Go old school and be creative. Thats what always made it fun anyway, you could personalize it to suit what you wanted or enjoyed. I love the game and play 3.5. I have the core 4e books, but not really interested in that version...So make mine Paizo.
Anyway these arguements seem senseless to me, if you really dislike 4e that much don't play it, if WotC insults you so much don't patronize them any more.
OK, just saw the damn thing for the first time. I thought it was quite funny, and the troll thing can be seen as a friendly dig if you are feeling friendly, or an unfriendly insult if you are feeling unfriendly. <shrug>
And a bad idea to have gone with either way.
I think it was priceless.
- Zorg
....
No worries, I just didn't read you right. Internet is like that.
I think it was priceless.
- Zorg
If they make a habit of repeating that kind of barbed humerous attacks on their potential customers I'd say 'pricey' might be more accurate.
But on second thought, simply increasing web traffic isn't necessarily a win. But I won't say anything more for fear of being branded a troll.Now that simply makes a person curious. Do share.
Personally, I think the cartoon is unfortunate in that it is demonstrably divisive. That is not good marketing IMO and will simple serve to make the company more insular.
Cartoons that poke fun at the game are good. Cartoons that poke fun at a segment of potential customers is going to be a mistake nine times out of tem.
Kodts turned the idea into an industry and the Gamers DVDs seem to manage as well.
I'm not even sure that WotC has really changed its stripes in this regards. Making fun of gamers, themselves and older editions would strike me as standard fare from them. Whats changed, IMO, is the customer base.
Ok. Using that definition this board and the content for each and every post is an ad for Paizo? I mean WotC has boards on their site and everything on their site is advertising.Advertising has specific forms - that cartoon does not fit the bill.
Actually I'd say that the forum is advertising for Paizo. In fact Lisa has made it clear to her employees, according to one of her posts, that the forum is not a side line but is in fact part of their job.
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Kodts turned the idea into an industry and the Gamers DVDs seem to manage as well.
I do not really recall a KoDT strip that said people who like Hackmaster are all sycophants and people who complain about elements of Hackmaster are targets for their bowel movements.
There is a difference in laughing at behavior we have "all" seen or heard about in other gamers at one point or other and mocking people just for supporting or not supporting your product.
Including the "legend" of Vecna's Head in Die Vecna, Die was funny.
The cartoon in the DMG 1 about the guy giving a warning to the people in the inn because a high level fighter short a few xp of leveling was coming was hilarious.
Chief Technical Officer
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The word I think most business professionals would use for the Wizards cartoon is "marketing," not "advertising." Advertising usually implies paid placement, and is a component of many marketing plans.
Actually I'd say that the forum is advertising for Paizo. In fact Lisa has made it clear to her employees, according to one of her posts, that the forum is not a side line but is in fact part of their job.
Again, "marketing" would be more appropriate than "advertising," but that's selling the forums short. Marketing usually implies a focus on getting a message *to* a customer base, while the boards are equally useful for allowing us to get messages *from* our customer base.
The word I think most business professionals would use for the Wizards cartoon is "marketing," not "advertising." Advertising usually implies paid placement, and is a component of many marketing plans.
Actually I'd say that the forum is advertising for Paizo. In fact Lisa has made it clear to her employees, according to one of her posts, that the forum is not a side line but is in fact part of their job.Again, "marketing" would be more appropriate than "advertising," but that's selling the forums short. Marketing usually implies a focus on getting a message *to* a customer base, while the boards are equally useful for allowing us to get messages *from* our customer base.
OK. Marketing is clearly more accurate terminology but my point remains the same.
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WHY WON'T IT DIE!!!
God's this thread has been ressurected more times than a popular religious icon..........Bugs Bunny
Can we please, please, please let it drop so we can actually have some conversations about the damned game!
What's up doc? What are you so afraid of? Why plugging your ears again with la la la la la? This discussion is a valid one. I've been able to hear all sorts of views about the cartoon through this messageboard forum. Likewise, PAIZO is also hearing that many gamers were insulted by the marketing piece. Horus, who are you exactly to deem this dicussion over or invalid? Interesting you invoke a secular tomb-sealing perspective, as though the community who does not like the direction this cartoon portrays or are against wotc for their marketing mis-steps such as this one, should stay quietly sealed in the tomb? As in dead, and forgotten? Hmmmnn...
If the company that makes 4th edition didn't provoke/prompt this discussion with the realease of an animation that is offensive to at least some of their (former) customers, there would not be a desire to hear various perspectives on it as a legitimate fourth edition discussion thread.
Like it or not, the discussion is valid and many have the right to hold 4e discussions here, even if it is not to your tastes. So, kindly cut out the capitol-letter-vitriol, cut out the please, please, please whining, stop the cussing, and refrain from allusions to God, Jesus, or resurrections.
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What's up doc? What are you so afraid of? Why plugging your ears again with la la la la la? This discussion is a valid one. I've been able to hear all sorts of views about the cartoon through this messageboard forum. Likewise, PAIZO is also hearing that many gamers were insulted by the marketing piece. Horus, who are you exactly to deem this dicussion over or invalid? Interesting you invoke a secular tomb-sealing perspective, as though the community who does not like the direction this cartoon portrays or are against wotc for their marketing mis-steps such as this one, should stay quietly sealed in the tomb? As in dead, and forgotten? Hmmmnn...
If the company that makes 4th edition didn't provoke/prompt this discussion with the realease of an animation that is offensive to at least some of their (former) customers, there would not be a desire to hear various perspectives on it as a legitimate fourth edition discussion thread.
Like it or not, the discussion is valid and many have the right to hold 4e discussions here, even if it is not to your tastes. So, kindly cut out the capitol-letter-vitriol, cut out the please, please, please whining, stop the cussing, and refrain from allusions to God, Jesus, or resurrections.
Have any insight on the posts that have been made in the two days since Horus posted?
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Have any insight on the posts that have been made in the two days since Horus posted?
I doubt it, my post was just a good excuse to bump this crap back up the board. People would rather just argue about a stupid cartoon than discuss the game they choose to play.
Or, in the case of h4ters (or whatever people call them) they would rather clog a message board with this type of rubbish and "critiques" of a game they don't play or the company they won't buy from than spend time discussing or playing the game they will.
However their doing well so far,these (4e) boards have slowly been getting quieter with many long term posters leaving, sick of the constant thread crapping, conversation derailment and general unfriendly attitude of others.
This thread stopped having any value (from post 1) hundreds of posts ago, the last constructive thread here was from Vic Wertz AND that's not even about the cartoon but rather what qualifies as marketing/advertising.
Without adequate moderation I fear that these boards are destined to be abandoned by 4E fans, but since we don't apparently have any value to Paizo perhaps that's for the best.
Later days
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Have any insight on the posts that have been made in the two days since Horus posted?
Yes. Looks like Jeremy is talking about Kotdt cartoons that I'm actually unfamiliar with, sorry to say. Is it possible this red dragon s*#$ is actually a spoof of the Hackmaster or Kotdt series that referred to the same?
Also, some have mentioned that there seems to have been a consistency in the dnd industry with laughing at gamers. While I'd agree that light hearted fun is awesome, this marketing cartoon seemed to affect me (and many others) in a way very very different from our experience watching the warrior stumble into the inn, startling patrons by flailing his sword because he was just a few xp away from the next level.
I really did like the cartoons in the original books. And, when I'm not riled up by 4e related things, or wotc company behavior, I'm actually a fun loving person who enjoys that type of humor.
I agree with those who believe we must laugh at ourselves. I just see the red dragon/trollshit cartoon as having additional messaging that must have been known to be insulting, yet still made it out there...
I just see the red dragon/trollshit cartoon as having additional messaging that must have been known to be insulting, yet still made it out there...
Perhaps it would be best if everyone followed their own advice they so freely give to others.
So, kindly cut out the capitol-letter-vitriol, cut out the please, please, please whining, stop the cussing, and refrain from allusions to God, Jesus, or resurrections.
so let me get this straight. A troll is crapped on, and 3E enthusiasts get mad. But because it is a 4E dragon crapping, it's an insult...I had previously thought that the whole edition war insanity couldn't get any dumber.
Pardon me if I decide to be unhappily proven wrong. Did all you fracked off peeps think WotC would never swing back? Now that they have, and called a troll a troll you are suddenly RE-offended?
Grow up. Really. Just grow up.
so let me get this straight. A troll is crapped on, and 3E enthusiasts get mad. But because it is a 4E dragon crapping, it's an insult...I had previously thought that the whole edition war insanity couldn't get any dumber.
Pardon me if I decide to be unhappily proven wrong. Did all you fracked off peeps think WotC would never swing back? Now that they have, and called a troll a troll you are suddenly RE-offended?
Grow up. Really. Just grow up.
sung to the Toys 'R Us theme
I don't want to grow up, I'm a Trolls 'R Us kid...
:)
so let me get this straight. A troll is crapped on, and 3E enthusiasts get mad. But because it is a 4E dragon crapping, it's an insult...I had previously thought that the whole edition war insanity couldn't get any dumber.
Pardon me if I decide to be unhappily proven wrong. Did all you fracked off peeps think WotC would never swing back? Now that they have, and called a troll a troll you are suddenly RE-offended?
Grow up. Really. Just grow up.
sung to the Toys 'R Us theme
I don't want to grow up, I'm a Trolls 'R Us kid...
:)
Beautiful...and appropriate :)
so let me get this straight. A troll is crapped on, and 3E enthusiasts get mad. But because it is a 4E dragon crapping, it's an insult...I had previously thought that the whole edition war insanity couldn't get any dumber.
Pardon me if I decide to be unhappily proven wrong. Did all you fracked off peeps think WotC would never swing back? Now that they have, and called a troll a troll you are suddenly RE-offended?
Grow up. Really. Just grow up.
I'm a little confused at what you're actually saying there ... on the one hand you seem to be suggesting the cartoon isn't meant to be aimed at anyone other than a troll ... on the other you do a 1-80 and say the cartoon is a 'swipe back' at critics and we critics should just suck it up.
Little contradictory that.
Btw ... where did the belief that anyone who doesn't like 4e (and objects to being collectively crapped on by WotC for that fact) is a '3e enthusiast' come from?
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Btw ... where did the belief that anyone who doesn't like 4e (and objects to being collectively crapped on by WotC for that fact) is a '3e enthusiast' come from?
I think the frustration comes from the perception that the "I don't like 4e" folks never seem to tell the "I HATE 4E & WOTC & PEOPLE THAT PLAY 4E" trolls to knock it off. In fact when WotC takes a swipe at the anti-4e troll (not the people that simply dislike the game) then the "I don't like 4e" folks get all pissed off when they are not the ones the cartoon was satirically poking.
I'm a little confused at what you're actually saying there ... on the one hand you seem to be suggesting the cartoon isn't meant to be aimed at anyone other than a troll ... on the other you do a 1-80 and say the cartoon is a 'swipe back' at critics and we critics should just suck it up.
Little contradictory that.
Only if you assume the swipe back was at all people that are critical of 4e. If it was a swipe back instead at the trolls only, then there is no contradiction.
Btw ... where did the belief that anyone who doesn't like 4e (and objects to being collectively crapped on by WotC for that fact) is a '3e enthusiast' come from?I think the frustration comes from the perception that the "I don't like 4e" folks never seem to tell the "I HATE 4E & WOTC & PEOPLE THAT PLAY 4E" trolls to knock it off. In fact when WotC takes a swipe at the anti-4e troll (not the people that simply dislike the game) then the "I don't like 4e" folks get all pissed off when they are not the ones the cartoon was satirically poking.
That was hardly clear from the cartoon imo. The troll may have been typing in caps, but he was making fairly standard complaints about 4e, he wasn't even really that insulting (as far as I could see). To me, it seemed like the troll was equated to people who posted complaints about 4e ... beyond that it was subjective. I mean what clasifies someone as a troll anyway? Where's the line on that?
WotC should not have gone there, surely that's clear?
..."fairly standard complaints"...I'll get back to you when I can get my laughter under control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow...that was a good laugh. Been awhile it has.
So, back to the subject at hand, the "offensiveness" of WotC's "attack" on people criticising 4E's...everything evidently.
Guess what? If you took offense at that silly little cartoon you are someone who was already boycotting their 4E line anyway. I grant one or two exceptions here or there, but I would opine that I am in essence, correct.
So what, you will now buy LESS than NO products from them? Bellyache and whine to MORE people about how "betrayed" you feel? Sorry, but that is just lame, and guess what? WotC knows you aren't coming back and DONT CARE.
They has every right to crap on people who accuse them of the awful things they are being hit with. People are getting indignant at being called on their own jackassery!!!!! What kind of fool actually defends trolls anyway?
I mean really, whining on a forum about being offended by seeing a troll get pooped on by a red dragon? (pardon another fit of laughter here.) Go see a therapist, because that goes well beyond the realms of silly human idiosynchracy, and off the deep end of pity parties and professional victims.
IT. IS. A. GAME. Play whichever one you like, with whomever you like, when you like, how you like. The only people who have the "right" to be offended by any of this are the people who decided to give 4E a chance and GASP!!! Enjoyed it, since they seem to be the ones being attacked here. 4orons, anybody?
Calling them fools, WotZis, retards, or any of the hundreds of little backhanded patronizing things I have seen on these boards is IDIOCY in it's vilest form.
So Rockheimer, Do you play 4E? I will assume you do since you have gone out of you way to post in the 4E part of the boards. This assumption being made because only a true Jackhole would willingly come over here just to whine about how offendede they are about the latest ad for a product they hate right? Yup, none of them around here, right?
Folks, isn't it time to let this go? WotC hasn't "seen the light" and decided to cancel 4E. In fact, it would appear a new and more permissive GSL in on the way, several core books are in process, and more 3pp's are signing on as time goes by. It is here to stay...for better or worse. Going online to complain about it is one thing, but when does it end? What do you hope to accomplish? That is, besides turn into yet another internet anonymized idiot, spewing thread-crap all over people who just want to talk about their game - Whatever that game is.
/EndRant
PS - Frankly I don't give two farts in the wind what edition you play, since yes, it IS all D&D.
Cheers!
So what, you will now buy LESS than NO products from them? Bellyache and whine to MORE people about how "betrayed" you feel? Sorry, but that is just lame, and guess what? WotC knows you aren't coming back and DONT CARE.Never say Never. There's always 5e.
AAARRRGGHHH!!! Knew I missed something :)
Good point, but we have at least 2 or 5 years to worry about that. Besides, my money in on all the haters coming back if the game "does it right" whatever that means.
There will be all kinds of reasons why they come back, "they fired X", "They brought back X skills", "They listened to MY ideas", but come back they will. Nothing wrong with this, but it should be definitive proof that you can't make everyone happy all the time.
I am just sick to death of all the garbage going round these days. You hate WotC - Fine. You hate 4E - Fine. But why come to a 4E friendly board and make a bunch of piteous noises? It makes no sense.