True true...but one thing you miss Mr. Betts is the extension of Paizo's "Care and Respect" towards 4e WotC fans such as yourself.
WotC has plenty of respect for fans of D&D 3.5. Y'know, since it's their game. In fact, they have entire sections of their message board entirely for such legacy games.
Don't suddenly start pretending that Paizo is so much more accepting of 4th Edition than WotC is of Pathfinder. Neither is having anything to do with the other besides allowing them to be discussed in the appropriate sections.
The same cannot be said for WotC.
Yes it can.
Do they have a "Pathfinder" section on THEIR boards to allow their prior customers to discuss their competitors products? No they don't.
It's called the D&D 3.5 boards.
I choose to no longer post on their boards but I do look in once or twice a month. I do notice that ANY mention of Paizo/Pathfinder seems to get a $#!T storm dumped on them by both 4e fans and WotC Employees/Volunteers alike.
Maybe in the 4th Edition forums, where it doesn't belong, but in the Previous Editions General board where it's supposed to be discussed, I was only able to find one thread (located here) where Pathfinder was the topic, and the discussion there was very civil. So I'm not sure which forums you've been looking at, but nothing of the sort seems to be going on in the board where Pathfinder is supposed to be discussed.
Yes that happens here in the 4e forums at times
"At times" is putting it lightly. There is a real problem here with people being unable to discuss 4th Edition without any number of anti-4e attacks. It's really kind of embarrassing.
by Paizo fans yet when was the last time you saw any Paizo employees joining in the insults?
I haven't. The Paizo employees are fantastic and set an excellent example for their fans to follow. I just wish they would.
DO you see Paizo making silly little Tongue and Cheek Videos making fun of ANYBODY...Period?
I don't see Paizo having a flash animation team, but I do know that they have a pretty excellent sense of humor. If Paizo wanted to make a tongue-in-cheek cartoon making fun of people who, quite frankly, deserve to be made fun of a lot, I'd probably laugh with them.
NO, they have more class than that.
It's humor. Don't give me that.
Thankfully WotC did do ONE good thing lately and got rid of the worst offender Mr. Gamer-Zero. I personally could care less about the video. I found it neither funny nor insulting. I haven't quite made up my mind about your posts however. Perhaps we need a Troll insulting anti-WotC gamers...to Poop on. (sorry Triumph...I couldn't resist)
OH and how about a link to some of those RPG sites that are linking to the Paizo boards and apparently laughing at these threads...
Haha, really? Alright then.
WotC: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1087159
Check out posts 7, 10, 22, 27, 28, 35, 37, 48, 50 and 111 in particular.
RPG.net: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=413932&page=2
Posts 20 and 22.
And those are only the ones I check out.
Comical reactions like this do not reflect well on the Paizo community as a whole. The general consensus seems to be that people are getting way too worked up over a joke, and that the Paizo boards seem to be the center of the outrage.
The video game criticism IS valid. The monster manual reads like a list of stats you'd see in a video game guide: next to no flavor, with just a wall of numbers.
D&D 3.5 stat blocks were a wall of numbers, too. And I don't mind the short flavor text, since it allows me flexibility from the get-go to do what I want with them. And none of this means it's suddenly a video game on paper.
As for oversimplification, I seem to remember my wizards having spells.
And I seem to remember my Fighter having full attack.
And that's it.
And thanks for adding more fuel to the "The people hating on 4th Edition all played Wizards" stereotype.
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The video game criticism IS valid. The monster manual reads like a list of stats you'd see in a video game guide: next to no flavor, with just a wall of numbers.D&D 3.5 stat blocks were a wall of numbers, too. And I don't mind the short flavor text, since it allows me flexibility from the get-go to do what I want with them. And none of this means it's suddenly a video game on paper.
As for oversimplification, I seem to remember my wizards having spells.And I seem to remember my Fighter having full attack.
And that's it.
And thanks for adding more fuel to the "The people hating on 4th Edition all played Wizards" stereotype.
Mr Betts,
You have fallen into the trap you constantly accuse the 4E Haters Brigade of doing: You are treating your likes and dislikes as objective facts. You don't mind the lack of flavour text; Xithor does. That is a legitimate complaint. He thinks it looks like a video game manual; you don't. These are opinions, not facts.If you're going to get on your moral high horse about other people doing something, it would be best if you weren't guilty of it yourself.
Mr Betts,
You have fallen into the trap you constantly accuse the 4E Haters Brigade of doing: You are treating your likes and dislikes as objective facts. You don't mind the lack of flavour text; Xithor does. That is a legitimate complaint.
Yes, it is.
Saying that because the flavor text is sparse, 4th Edition is suddenly a video game on paper is not a legitimate complaint.
He thinks it looks like a video game manual; you don't. These are opinions, not facts.
No, what he said about the Monster Manual is pretty factual. I agree that the Monster Manual looks pretty similar to a video game strategy guide. That's because they serve much the same purpose, functionally, and always have.
But again, this doesn't suddenly mean that 4th Edition is a video game on paper. If anything, it indicates much more strongly that some video games are RPGs on a computer/console.
If you're going to get on your moral high horse about other people doing something, it would be best if you weren't guilty of it yourself.
And when I am guilty of it, feel free to call me on it.
By the way, disagreeing with someone's opinion with your own opinion is how discussions work. What I criticize the "4E Haters Brigade" for is a) making the 4th Edition board here largely intolerable for actual discussion of the game by people who play it, and b) for inane, immature attacks leveled at the game without any indication of willingness to discuss the criticisms.
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Meh. Whatever.
My thoughts exactly.
Ive moved on.
I personally have no feelings at all about what Wizards of the Coast does in any way, shape, form, or manner.
Pax, and all the others....remember the opposite of Love isn't really Hate, Its ambivalence.
The best possible thing you can do for yourself and the gaming community is let it go.
They lost my business a long time ago. I won't lose a single moment of sleep caring what they do now, or in the future.
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Meh. Whatever.My thoughts exactly.
Ive moved on.
I personally have no feelings at all about what Wizards of the Coast does in any way, shape, form, or manner.
Pax, and all the others....remember the opposite of Love isn't really Hate, Its ambivalence.
The best possible thing you can do for yourself and the gaming community is let it go.
They lost my business a long time ago. I won't lose a single moment of sleep caring what they do now, or in the future.
No offense but if you didn't care you wouldn't feel the need to mention it over & over & over again in a multitude of threads that are about a game you apparently don't like.
(Although I'll give you that this particular thread is more about what people consider funny or appropriate for a company to take the mickey out of.)
Meh. Whatever.My thoughts exactly.
Ive moved on.
I personally have no feelings at all about what Wizards of the Coast does in any way, shape, form, or manner.
Pax, and all the others....remember the opposite of Love isn't really Hate, Its ambivalence.
The best possible thing you can do for yourself and the gaming community is let it go.
They lost my business a long time ago. I won't lose a single moment of sleep caring what they do now, or in the future.
Until they put something out that you want.
The best possible thing you can do for yourself and the gaming community is let it go.
Yes, please. Let it go.
You claim to love Pathfinder and Paizo. Do you think you're doing them any favors by making yourselves (and these boards) a punchline?
[
While I will refrain from the 4e sucks thing...I really don't care if it's good or not...I will again point out that at least Paizo gives you the option of discussing 4e on their boards. When was the last time you saw an official "Pathfinder" forum on the WotC boards?Feel free to discuss 4e all you want and I truly am sorry that some choose to dump on it. Be the better person and ignore them. That means that taking shots at Pathfinder fans isn't making things any better and probably partly why people keep attacking the 4e fans here. For example the people turned away from the WotC Ballroom would fill the Pathfinder room all by themselves. NOt helping your argument. Granted if it's really that big an issue...You do have other 4e discussion destinations to choose from.
Gah I just don't understand the "just go someplace else" attitude. Though I'm no where near the regular customer I once was, I do still buy things here. I still enjoy having conversations with some of the people here. Why should I just roll over and leave because a few people can't FREAKING LET IT GO?
Keep drinking the Kool-aid buddy.
OH YEAH!
Until they put something out that you want.
Unless they put something out that he wants.
"Until" implies a certain inevitability, that everyone who dislikes 4E will eventually come around and embrace it, which I'm sure you didn't intend to suggest. Oh, no. Not you.
Until they put something out that you want.
I'll tell you what I'd buy from WotC in a heartbeat: PDFs of the 3.5 books. I don't know why they aren't making these available, as they are not supporting the edition anymore. I can buy anything from previous editions in PDF form for about $4. I despise IP ripoff/pirate uploading places, and I have yet to patronize any of them, but the longer it takes to get legitimate PDFs up the more the dark side tempts me. It shouldn't bother WotC to make them available, and the good PR/constant revenue stream certainly wouldn't hurt.
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I'll tell you what I'd buy from WotC in a heartbeat: PDFs of the 3.5 books. I don't know why they aren't making these available, as they are not supporting the edition anymore. I can buy anything from previous editions in PDF form for about $4. I despise IP ripoff/pirate uploading places, and I have yet to patronize any of them, but the longer it takes to get legitimate PDFs up the more the dark side tempts me. It shouldn't bother WotC to make them available, and the good PR/constant revenue stream certainly wouldn't hurt.
Until they put something out that you want.
www.rpgnow.com has pdfs of most 3rd edition stuff. It doesn't have the Players Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide or Monster Manual as WotC pulled them when the new edition came out, and they are asking full book price for them which seems crazy to me, but most of the stuff is there.
www.rpgnow.com has pdfs of most 3rd edition stuff. It doesn't have the Players Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide or Monster Manual as WotC pulled them when the new edition came out, and they are asking full book price for them which seems crazy to me, but most of the stuff is there.I'll tell you what I'd buy from WotC in a heartbeat: PDFs of the 3.5 books. I don't know why they aren't making these available, as they are not supporting the edition anymore. I can buy anything from previous editions in PDF form for about $4. I despise IP ripoff/pirate uploading places, and I have yet to patronize any of them, but the longer it takes to get legitimate PDFs up the more the dark side tempts me. It shouldn't bother WotC to make them available, and the good PR/constant revenue stream certainly wouldn't hurt.
Until they put something out that you want.
As far as I know, the 3.5 *core* books have never been offered in a digital format.
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As far as I know, the 3.5 *core* books have never been offered in a digital format.www.rpgnow.com has pdfs of most 3rd edition stuff. It doesn't have the Players Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide or Monster Manual as WotC pulled them when the new edition came out, and they are asking full book price for them which seems crazy to me, but most of the stuff is there.I'll tell you what I'd buy from WotC in a heartbeat: PDFs of the 3.5 books. I don't know why they aren't making these available, as they are not supporting the edition anymore. I can buy anything from previous editions in PDF form for about $4. I despise IP ripoff/pirate uploading places, and I have yet to patronize any of them, but the longer it takes to get legitimate PDFs up the more the dark side tempts me. It shouldn't bother WotC to make them available, and the good PR/constant revenue stream certainly wouldn't hurt.
Until they put something out that you want.
I'm fairly certain I have seen them offered on rpgnow, but they're not there now, so I could well be mistaken.
Until they put something out that you want.Unless they put something out that he wants.
"Until" implies a certain inevitability, that everyone who dislikes 4E will eventually come around and embrace it, which I'm sure you didn't intend to suggest. Oh, no. Not you.
Actually, it was meant to highlight the fact that these sorts of personal corporate boycotts tend not to last longer than it takes the company to release something that the boycotter would want to buy anyway.
As Paul said (and I think we've discussed this before) they were all up on RPGnow but the core books were taken down at the advent of 4e. They always wanted full dead tree prices for the PDFs, which is tough, since I already paid those prices for the books. I can't justify paying all over, especially for something I would mostly be using on a computer at work infrequently.
I don't hate on 4E, but I don't understand why they couldn't just post these old 'obsolete' books up like they did all the other editions for a reasonable price so that those who aren't going into 4E could benefit. It would make me feel a lot nicer towards WotC, who haven't been on my Hit Parade since they announced the magazines 'evolution'.
I'm fairly certain I have seen them offered on rpgnow, but they're not there now, so I could well be mistaken.As far as I know, the 3.5 *core* books have never been offered in a digital format.www.rpgnow.com has pdfs of most 3rd edition stuff. It doesn't have the Players Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide or Monster Manual as WotC pulled them when the new edition came out, and they are asking full book price for them which seems crazy to me, but most of the stuff is there.I'll tell you what I'd buy from WotC in a heartbeat: PDFs of the 3.5 books. I don't know why they aren't making these available, as they are not supporting the edition anymore. I can buy anything from previous editions in PDF form for about $4. I despise IP ripoff/pirate uploading places, and I have yet to patronize any of them, but the longer it takes to get legitimate PDFs up the more the dark side tempts me. It shouldn't bother WotC to make them available, and the good PR/constant revenue stream certainly wouldn't hurt.
Until they put something out that you want.
Or I could be mistaken. :D
Either way, if I were WOTC I'd be trying to get whatever I could for them at this point...especially the monster manual, since it seems there will be a span next year during which Paizo will have yet to offer a alternative.
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The best possible thing you can do for yourself and the gaming community is let it go.
Yes, please. Let it go.
You claim to love Pathfinder and Paizo. Do you think you're doing them any favors by making yourselves (and these boards) a punchline?
You claim to love WotC and 4E. Do you think you're doing them any favors by making yourself (and those boards) a punchline?
Objectivity FAIL, indeed. It's remarks like those that make some feel like 4E is more of a game for......well, people who would use 'Objectivity FAIL' in a post.I Personally couldn't care less what a bunch of people on another board think of me or my opinion, just like I couldn't care less if someone on the street hears me talk about gaming and thinks 'Oh god, a D&D playing geek!'. The group I am a part of is Paizo. I feel that my group is the best or I wouldn't be a part of it. All other groups are teeth-gnashing nerd-ragers who play sub-par games IMO, so I don't concern myself with them.
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And thanks for adding more fuel to the "The people hating on 4th Edition all played Wizards" stereotype.
Actually, I play barbarians, rouges and rangers. I was using wizards as an example. Full attack is a wonderfull thing, and not to be dismissed.
My barbarins have been exiled to players handbook two, so I can't say for them, but rouges and rangers are nigh unrecognizable, with cookie cutter computer game type powers. It's just the Book of Nine Swords crap all over again.
I'm surprised they're aren't just "powermeters" to recharge abilities.
The 3.5 monsters had statblocks it's true, but they weren't <i>just</i> stat blocks. But in my opinion, with out a frame of referance, the monster is just something to kill, not a real thinking adversary.
The best possible thing you can do for yourself and the gaming community is let it go.
Yes, please. Let it go.
You claim to love Pathfinder and Paizo. Do you think you're doing them any favors by making yourselves (and these boards) a punchline?
You claim to love WotC and 4E. Do you think you're doing them any favors by making yourself (and those boards) a punchline?
Objectivity FAIL, indeed. It's remarks like those that make some feel like 4E is more of a game for......well, people who would use 'Objectivity FAIL' in a post.
I Personally couldn't care less what a bunch of people on another board think of me or my opinion, just like I couldn't care less if someone on the street hears me talk about gaming and thinks 'Oh god, a D&D playing geek!'. The group I am a part of is Paizo. I feel that my group is the best or I wouldn't be a part of it. All other groups are teeth-gnashing nerd-ragers who play sub-par games IMO, so I don't concern myself with them.
Yes, I'm the sort of person who would use "Objectivity fail" in a post. I'm glad my sense of humor supports your (clearly unwarranted) sense of superiority. I will now respond with all the wit and intellectual vigor someone "like you" deserves: Bite me.
Quit freaking whinning about 4E. GET OVER IT. That is all: The rest is obfuscation.
Post removed.
Smurf.
The best possible thing you can do for yourself and the gaming community is let it go.
Yes, please. Let it go.
You claim to love Pathfinder and Paizo. Do you think you're doing them any favors by making yourselves (and these boards) a punchline?
You claim to love WotC and 4E. Do you think you're doing them any favors by making yourself (and those boards) a punchline?
Objectivity FAIL, indeed. It's remarks like those that make some feel like 4E is more of a game for......well, people who would use 'Objectivity FAIL' in a post.
I Personally couldn't care less what a bunch of people on another board think of me or my opinion, just like I couldn't care less if someone on the street hears me talk about gaming and thinks 'Oh god, a D&D playing geek!'. The group I am a part of is Paizo. I feel that my group is the best or I wouldn't be a part of it. All other groups are teeth-gnashing nerd-ragers who play sub-par games IMO, so I don't concern myself with them.Fake Healer:
Bugleyman apologised over on that thread; he hadn't realised that there was a group called the '4E Avengers' and was responding to what he thought was an uncalled for derogatory remark by Heathansson.
That was indeed a mistake. This wasn't. I don't respond well to beinging smugly referred to as "that sort of person." The sheer hubris is...breathtaking.
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People People lets all calm down before someone says something that they will later regret. Now Ill admit I dont like the advert not because i find it offensive (which i dont) but for the exact same reason i dont like shows like southpark which is it uses toilet humor which i just dont find at all funny. So overall a great big meh from me.
Edit:
Smurf.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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People People lets all calm down before someone says something that they will later regret. Now Ill admit I dont like the advert not because i find it offensive (which i dont) but for the exact same reason i dont like shows like southpark which is it uses toilet humor which i just dont find at all funny. So overall a great big meh from me.
[distraction attempt]As 'someone' is singular, the pronoun 'they' is incorrect, strictly speaking. You could have said 'people' and 'they' or 'someone' and 'he or she'. ... [/distraction attempt]
Somehow I don't think picking on Kevin's grammar is going to work as a distraction here but it's worth a shot in the "Hi, I'm such a big grammar loving goomba, why not beat me up instead" kind of way.
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After viewing the On the Set, 4e Red Dragon video from wotc, I am sickened at the new low they've reached in this crappy video that portreys valid criticisms involving greed, video games, and over-simplification in 4e as coming from a Troll typing feedback/criticisms on a computer. The red dragon then actually s@#~s on a farmer, and s@#~s on the Troll giving feedback. This is hands down the absolute worst treatment of (formerly) loyal customers by any company I have ever seen. They've managed to turn our game into a lollypop. Did anyone get the message that gamers with contrary opinions are worth s@#~ting on?
How absolutely disgraceful.
But you have to admit, the kobolds pouring barbecue sauce on the reporter and then him being roasted by the dragon was pretty funny. I may use that in a campaign sometime.
Double-smurfed smurf.
... Wandering off to leave these nice people to fight it out for themselves. Oh, and:
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People People lets all calm down before someone says something that they will later regret. Now Ill admit I dont like the advert not because i find it offensive (which i dont) but for the exact same reason i dont like shows like southpark which is it uses toilet humor which i just dont find at all funny. So overall a great big meh from me.[distraction attempt]As 'someone' is singular, the pronoun 'they' is incorrect, strictly speaking. You could have said 'people' and 'they' or 'someone' and 'he or she'. ... [/distraction attempt]
** spoiler omitted **
Sir you have offended my honour and I demand satisfaction.
Sir you have offended my honour and I demand satisfaction.People People lets all calm down before someone says something that they will later regret. Now Ill admit I dont like the advert not because i find it offensive (which i dont) but for the exact same reason i dont like shows like southpark which is it uses toilet humor which i just dont find at all funny. So overall a great big meh from me.[distraction attempt]As 'someone' is singular, the pronoun 'they' is incorrect, strictly speaking. You could have said 'people' and 'they' or 'someone' and 'he or she'. ... [/distraction attempt]
** spoiler omitted **
The monkey pops in from the PbP section
Quit smurfing around Kevin and lets go to the City Barracks! I so wanna unleash the Hardheads on you! MUAHAHAHA!!
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Yeah, a smurf can dream - can't he?I think it will be a long time before we move on when there are so many people out there so eager to be offended by WOTC or anyone else.Wow. An entire thread demonstrating the veracity the cartoon - sycophants and trolls.
Can we just move on - please?
Yeah, but dreaming just gets him grabbed by Gargamel.
Edit: Hey, we match.
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Sadly, he is not allowed in this section of the boards. Fear not, however, for those special people who share in his unique sense of humor and joyfulness, there is always the Off Topics section.sighvomit guy?
perhaps we need to get Lisa to treat VG as a sort of charged magic item. You know, X/uses per month on the main boards? Or maybe just 50 charges like a wand that could be judiciously used to BLARGH all over threads that need it (like this one). Either way, this thread could really use a little VG to 'clear the air'. Heck,we could even work in a clause that states it could only be used in edition war threads. I don't think anyone would mind.
Edit: perhaps we need to invoke smurfigorgon demon lord of La-La's?
I loved the kobolds especially the High Sycophant. He was fun.
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Sadly, he is not allowed in this section of the boards. Fear not, however, for those special people who share in his unique sense of humor and joyfulness, there is always the Off Topics section.sighvomit guy?perhaps we need to get Lisa to treat VG as a sort of charged magic item. You know, X/uses per month on the main boards? Or maybe just 50 charges like a wand that could be judiciously used to BLARGH all over threads that need it (like this one). Either way, this thread could really use a little VG to 'clear the air'. Heck,we could even work in a clause that states it could only be used in edition war threads. I don't think anyone would mind.
Edit: perhaps we need to invoke smurfigorgon demon lord of La-La's?
Ia! Smurfulu fhtagn! Ia! Ia! La! La-la!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Very well I choose red herrings at dawn
Sir you have offended my honour and I demand satisfaction.Bring it!
*Goes and digs out the hundred year old heirloom sword*
How about an old fashioned bar brawl.
Ia! Smurfulu fhtagn! Ia! Ia! La! La-la!
THE STARS ARE RIGHT FOR MY RETURN! SMURF!
Edit: man, that smurf really inspires terror from beyond. sigh...
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And rougerogue wonders if comic threadjacking is appropriate ... ;-)
I don't post much, but I do read most of the active threads. Smu[url=][/url]rfing one of the few ways of derailing the argue / quote / argue death spiral that people can get locked into. I think what Sebastian has to say about it is pretty apropos:
Comic threadjacking is what makes this place awesome. What irritates me is when the regulars have derailed a flametastic troll thread into a hilarious tangent and some Very Serious Poster with a Very Important Opinion has to show up and get the bonfire going again. If an angry thread has turned funny, just accept the fact that you missed your chance to post your Very Important Opinion and move on.
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And rougerogue wonders if comic threadjacking is appropriate ... ;-)I don't post much, but I do read most of the active threads. Smu[url=][/url]rfing one of the few ways of derailing the argue / quote / argue death spiral that people can get locked into. I think what Sebastian has to say about it is pretty apropos:
Comic threadjacking is what makes this place awesome. What irritates me is when the regulars have derailed a flametastic troll thread into a hilarious tangent and some Very Serious Poster with a Very Important Opinion has to show up and get the bonfire going again. If an angry thread has turned funny, just accept the fact that you missed your chance to post your Very Important Opinion and move on.
Bravo sir!
Smurf on ;-)
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[threadjack-for-Very-Important-Opinion]I dislike 4e quite a bit and I thought the video was funny. Maybe a little insulting, but if you can't take it, you shouldn't give it either. And everyone needs be made fun of now and then. I do think that Mr. Betts should take a chill pill, though. Enough with the apologism, it makes us grumpy and probably makes you grumpy too.[/threadjack-for-Very-Important-Opinion]
Now,