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For those interested, here you may attempt some monster races at ECL 0 for PRPG.
Gary, please move this to the General Forum if that is better.
Centaur
+2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom.
Medium size.
A centaur’s base land speed is 40 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+1 natural armor bonus.
Automatic Languages: Sylvan, Elven. Bonus Languages: Common, Gnome, Halfling.
Favored Class: Ranger or Druid.
Minotaur
+2 Dexterity, -4 Intelligence (minimum 3), -2 Charisma.
A minotaur’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on all Perception checks.
Weapon Proficiency: A minotaur is proficient with the greataxe.
+1 natural armor bonus.
Natural Weapons: Gore (1d6).
Special Qualities (see above): Natural cunning, scent.
Although minotaurs are not especially intelligent, they possess innate cunning and logical ability. This gives them immunity to maze spells, prevents them from ever becoming lost, and enables them to track enemies. Further, they are never caught flat-footed.
Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran.
Favored Class: Barbarian or druid.
Ogre
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.
An ogre’s base land speed is 40 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+3 natural armor bonus.
Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Orc, Goblin, Terran.
Favored Class: Barbarian or druid.
This is of course an open forum and a work in progress. Please post up your own versions for us to play, or just alter mine.
Each of those monsters has a number of racial HD associated with them in 3.5. Centaur has 4, Ogre has 4, and Minotaur has 6. I think that each of these critters would be close to balanced without a level adjustment. It seems that 3.5 designers greatly underestimated a lack of class skills/abilities from racial HD.
Changing the critters so that they can be ECL 0 PCs doesn't feel right to me. I'll say the same thing about them as I did in the Kobold PC thread: these are critters first, PCs distant second.
But in the spirit of the tread, my critique of the races as presented.
Centaur:
The most balanced out of the three. Not bad, but nothing very evocative.
Minotaur:
I think that the +2 Dex is misplaced. In MM3.5 he gets +8 STR +4 CON -4 INT -2 CHA. The mental penalties are appropriate but I have never thought of a minotaur as a dexterous creature. Also, I'm warry of scent. It is nigh impossible to sneak up on a creature with scent without some sort of very narrow magic ability (a problem with any PC with the ability, not just the minotaur).
Ogre:
Seems underpowered if it is a medium creature. You don't say if its large, and even then I could go for another +2 to the strength.
Out of all the common monsterous races I love Gnolls the most. I think removing the LA and leaving them at 2 racial HD would be perfectly balanced for pathfinder. But if people wanted an ECL 0 version I'd say:
Gnoll
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma
A gnoll’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+2 Perception on smell and hearing
+1 natural armor bonus.
Weapon Proficiency: A gnoll is proficient with the handaxe.
Automatic Languages: Common, Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Elven.
Favored Class: Ranger or Cleric.
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Each of those monsters has a number of racial HD associated with them in 3.5. Centaur has 4, Ogre has 4, and Minotaur has 6. I think that each of these critters would be close to balanced without a level adjustment. It seems that 3.5 designers greatly underestimated a lack of class skills/abilities from racial HD.
I was intentionally ignoring HD in order to provide PCs a chance to play unusual races at level 1.
But in the spirit of the tread, my critique of the races as presented.
Centaur:
The most balanced out of the three. Not bad, but nothing very evocative.
Yep, I knew that going in - it worked out rather well with the stats.
Minotaur:
I think that the +2 Dex is misplaced. In MM3.5 he gets +8 STR +4 CON -4 INT -2 CHA. The mental penalties are appropriate but I have never thought of a minotaur as a dexterous creature. Also, I'm warry of scent. It is nigh impossible to sneak up on a creature with scent without some sort of very narrow magic ability (a problem with any PC with the ability, not just the minotaur).
Reducing a creature from Large to Medium causes: -8 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Con. So in actual fact a Medium Minotaur would have a Dex bonus. I was thinking of eliminating scent. If I did, I would definitely have no hesitation of using it as a PC race.
Ogre:
Seems underpowered if it is a medium creature. You don't say if its large, and even then I could go for another +2 to the strength.
Yep, I was using it as Medium. I tried for a Large version, but the ability scores plus size just weren't working as LA +0. Like the minotaur, a Medium ogre would have only +2 Str after size adjustment (I actually did them a favour and added +2 Con, maybe it should have been Wisdom). What I was thinking was that the +3 natural armor and base speed would be the deciding factor. How about this:
Ogre
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma.
An ogre’s base land speed is 40 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+3 natural armor bonus.
Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Orc, Goblin, Terran.
Favored Class: Barbarian or druid.
That would mean you are trading about a -4 ability for +2 natural armor, in terms of balance.
Out of all the common monsterous races I love Gnolls the most. I think removing the LA and leaving them at 2 racial HD would be perfectly balanced for pathfinder. But if people wanted an ECL 0 version I'd say:
Gnoll
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma
A gnoll’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+2 Perception on smell and hearing
+1 natural armor bonus.
Weapon Proficiency: A gnoll is proficient with the handaxe.
Automatic Languages: Common, Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Elven.
Favored Class: Ranger or Cleric.
I totally agree, I love gnolls. I was just winging things last night, but I've always wanted to play a gnoll PC. I like your version, but it could actually have the +4 Str and still be acceptable (its balanced by the extra -2, none of the other abilities exceed another core race). Otherwise, I like it!
For the Minotaur from large to medium, those may be the 'correct' adjustments, but it doesn't fit the feel of the critter to have a dex bonus instead of str/con. I think it'd be appealing to do a +2 con instead of dex and dump scent in favor of +4 to smell checks, and reduce the other perceptions to +2. I think that'd be closer to a balance PC. Not getting lost and free tracking is pretty good for an adventurer.
Ogres having wisdom bonuses kinda works, but I still think it should be put into strength. Having a half-orc being as strong as an ogre? It just doesn't feel right.
As for the +4 strength for Gnolls, I think it could work. Now that I take a second look at it, they'd either need some more racial traits or the extra +2 on stength. I'd be tempted to find some interesting racial ability to give them so they aren't so vanilla.
